Vanessa's Makeover.

"I imagine this is a sentiment shared with some of the Vanessa fans, but obviously I think tweaking a character's skin tone has more profound social implications than reducing muscle tone. The latter can and does happen in real life, whereas the former only happens if you're Michael Jackson. "

LOL, good overall P.O.V., Myke, hey maybe they will have different skin tones as accesories so that anybody can make her black or white, whatever the individual wants to see, lol.
As disturbing as the lightnening of the skin tone is, I'm more pissed about her physiche being toned down because I have always wished that we could see the kind of diversity in character design on female characters that we see with male characters. While the male characters range from big to little, dark skin to light skin and from handsome to downright fugly (Goh), that kind of variety has rarely ever been attempted with the female characters. I know they're nice to look at but I know I'm not the only one that's tired of seeing the stereotypical "Fight Game Girl".
Fact: All female fighters are not hot.
Most of these female character's build is unrealistic with their abilites and I'm ready to see a body-building female or even a "big" girl throw down. I'm even ready to see, dare I say it, an unattractive female fighter , OMG. I know we all want eye candy but I think we got plenty of that already, let a scarred-up, tattoed, big muscled, bad-ass looking chick get up in there, I bet just the intimidation factor alone will make opponents run, lol

 

I always thought of Vanessa as African American. Perhaps it is because I'm African-American and therefore can't help but to be subconsciously biased in that direction even when trying to be impartial. But I think it is more because of her name, "Vanessa Lewis." But hey, I have yet to go around the world; there could be pockets of African people who choose English/American names in many different places around the world. After all, Lennox Lewis is from England.

If you look hard enough you can always find some predjudice in any decision regarding skin color or race. For instance, I always found it odd that only the Black Woman had features that were so hard. Then again, perhaps I could be reading too much into that because it seems that of the 4 VF women only Sarah, with her low-cut jeans and skin-tight outfits, is intendent to come across as unusually sexy. It is clear that at least one of their intentions was to "hotten' Vanessa and it worked, but that AM2 felt that they had to lighten her skin in order to do that does say something about the way they think. Unless of course, they simply based her on a picture of Beyonce Knowles. (Every time this topic comes up, someone mentions that she looks like Beyonce.)

Personally I think it is a case AM2 simply not knowing how to draw a Black woman. I think all video game designers have a problem showing the physical variances that come with different races. In Vanessa's case the most obvious problem was how to draw her from the waste down. Like someone said earlier, in VF4 she had the thighs of a race horse. Yet you can see that her hips were still narrow. It just plain looked funny. In Evo, that entire costume is gone.

You can see similar differences, or rather the lack thereof, in other characters in other games. In DOA4 for instance, Lisa doesn't look any different from any other female with the exception of skin color. In none of the games I have ever seen, do the Asian characters have tighter eyes than the non-Asian characters, even though that is the most recognizable and well-known feature of people of Asian decent.

In summary, I think that the designers are simply limited by their artistic skill. I think they took photographs of several recognizable beautiful Black woman and compiled a model based on that. I don't think they gave any real thought to the ramifications of lightner her skin tone.

 

Have any of you seen a female MMA fight? Look on the net (or ask me) about Hook N SHoot fights...these are not always the most "feminine" looking women. One of the women I train with is a good 145 lbs of muscle. She definatly is a woman, but definatly not what one would normally think of a girl. Look at her profession. Do you honestly think some dainty chick would do well as a professional fighter?

 

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Yeah, which was the reason I said at start that she derived from Black ethnicity rather than was definitely Black of African decent. Brazil’s inhabitants are a vast mix of African, European and indigenous Indian (is that the right description?) and so forth, without a definite nationality it’s hard to make solid judgement.

...

Ah, I used the term “Amazon†as a description of her previously obvious physical power and conditioning. The fact that the mythical Amazons were rumoured to hail from a region we suspect Vanessa does is circumstantial. It’s a universal moniker. With that frame of mind the same theory could be applied to Wolf and Jeffery, who could be referred to as “Herculean†in size and stature yet, neither have any genetic ties to the people of the Mediterranean. Well, accept Jeffery’s fighting style, and we all know how much of an indication that is in VF.

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I agree that when you wrote "Amazon" it was a figurative device, but my theory is that when Sega was designing the concept of Vanessa the character, it is not "strong black woman of African descent" but the "Amazon woman from Brazil practicing Vale Tudo" metaphor that they had in mind. It's a small but important distinction I think in this context. Keep in mind that Vale Tudo was made famous in Japan by the Brazilian Gracies. My guess is that's AM2's reference point.

Also, regarding Brazilian ethnicity from Wikipedia:

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A DNA study by UFMG shows that most Brazilians possess a combination of Amerindian (mainly Tupi and Guarani, among others), European (mainly Portuguese, Italian, German, Spanish) and African (mainly Bantu and Yoruba) ancestry, with an Asian-descended minority (mainly Japanese) and Arab (Lebanese and Syrian).

Southern Brazil has a large majority of people of European descent and in Southeast and Central-West Brazil the number of whites is somewhat equal to the number of Afro-Brazilian and multiracial Brazilians. Northeastern Brazil has a majority of people of African descent, while in Northern Brazil the Amerindian ancestry is predominant.

According to Brazil's 1988 Constitution, racism is an unbailable crime and must be met with imprisonment. This is taken very seriously.

The 2000 IBGE census found Brazil to be made up of:

white 53.7%
multiracial 38.5%
black 6.2%
asian 0.5%
amerindian 0.4%
unspecified 0.7%

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Based on the above, I agree with you it's not clear how "black" the Brazilian ethnicity is...but non-blacks comprise the majority of the population in Brazil and I don't think a random person would look at Vanessa and say she couldn't be Brazilian. If anything, one would guess that the average Brazilian is either white or multi-racial. And if she IS multi-racial you'd actually expect her VF5 not VF4 skin tone.

Also, the origins of her name "Lewis" is explained in her biography:

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She was later rescued by a special forces officer named Lewis during his assualt on J6. Lewis adopted Vanessa, but was murdered by terrorists on her 20th birthday.

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Also, when you think "special forces," what comes to mind? For me it's the Rangers traversing jungles. And for some reason that reinforces the Brazilian metaphor that I associate Vanessa with.

I think the reason I am responding to this thread is that there is an implicit (and explicit I guess) accusation that AM2 is racist in the way they changed her appearance. Without more information, I just don't agree we can say such a strong and damning statement.

I agree that the design change reflect AM2's belief that VF5 Vanessa is more attractive than VF4 Vanessa, but that in of itself does not constitute racism. If black people in general consider lighter toned black women more attractive than darker toned black women, isn't it understandable that non-black people might think the same way?

VF4 Akira is much darker in skin tone than VF3 Akira. What does that say about AM2's view on Japanese men? That darker skin tones for men are more masculine and attractive? What about Jeffry's and Wolf's growth spurt from VF4 to VF5? Or that all the women in VF are quite attractive in the first place?

I think AM2 is guilty of tapping into society's conventions for beauty, but I don't think they were being racist about it.

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“Do we really care?†Well, the people who’ve chimed in, yourself included, seem to have an opinion on the matter...

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By this I mean whatever Vanessa's appearance, we'd all still be playing VF5. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Unless AM2 is truly racist, then fuck 'em.

 

Briefly about Brad.

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Myke said:

Not to derail the thread, but on the topic of reducing muscle tone/bulk on characters, it kind of peeves me to see Brad's calf muscles reduced to that of average proportions. Before you start thinking that I might have some kind of calf muscle fetish, I don't. Just consider the body conditioning a lot of muay thai fighters endure, and most of them have pretty big calves. Brad's physique in Evo was pretty much spot on for leg definition, and this attention to detail was something I admired. It was a little sign that the designers understood something about the martial art they were designing for. But now? It's all wrong and it pisses me off because they had it right to begin with.

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Good points, Myke. I’ll humour you with your view on Brad’s physique. As a student of Muay Thai myself I’ve noticed many fellow pupils, especially the advanced ones who have amazingly powerful legs and shins. Ultimately it comes down to genetics though. While some people have bigger calves and thighs than others, seasoned Thai boxers will always have solid shins and weathered soles of the feet. Good calves are a mark of strong jumping, knee and push kick potential. You may or may not know this but calluses on the shin are an indication of intense conditioning.

I would have appreciated it more if Brad had noticeable calluses on his shins than greater definition on his thighs and calves. I’m leaning towards the idea that Sega is probably aware of the effects of Muay Thai conditioning but refrained from including it because it might be considered “unsightly†by the average Joe who isn’t in the know. The more this topic is discussed the more I come to understand that it's all about perception.

However, have you noticed that Brad’s knuckles are bruised and callused? I think that’s a great touch that says bucket loads about his character. Brad as a Thai boxer is far more proficient with his fists than his feet, we all have strengths and preferences (personally, I’m a kicker) and I’m glad Sega decided to add that touch to him rather than give him the full pretty boy treatment.

 

I like the new Vanessa, but I prefer the older one.

She skin change doesn't make any sense at all, but change in her build does.

What weight division was she in? I remember she was in the lower end, which doesn't make sense. Muscle is heavy and VF4 Vanessa was as buff as hotness permits.

I like my female fighting game characters the same way how I like my coffee: Strong, black and sugar free. Seems like AM2 is messing with this equation.

Doesn't Jeffery seem lighter too?
----
Mentioning Brad:

Ever since I've seen the new VF5 vids I have been messing with Brad. The new voice is a GOOD change.

 

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- Why do we think Vanessa is black as in African black? I had always thought of her as Brazilian than African in ethnicity. From that perspective, based on what little I have seen of her in VF5, she still appears Brazilian even with the lighter skin tone (perhaps more Brazilian now than before...maybe that's what Sega wanted to fix).

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It doent matter if she's black or not. And Brazilian's can have very dark skin.

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- I hope I'm not stirring the pot here...but black friends have told me that even among black people, lighter toned black women are generally perceived to be more attractive than darker toned black women. If that's what Sega also thinks (assuming Vanessa is indeed African in ethnicity, not Brazilian)...can they be blamed?

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Yea light skinned black people are generally perceived to be more attractive than darker toned black women by non-black people. For some strange reason a lot of people think light skin = beautiful. If fact it's the opposite. Dark skinned black women look far more attractive than light skinned black women.

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Just about all the characters have had some kind of makeover, and this is pretty true for every VF version, but some of the makeovers in 5 are more extreme than others. In Vanessa's case, I think the loss of muscle definition detracts tremendously from her character appeal, but the intentional lightening of the skin colour is just plain stupid and ignorant on the part of the designers. Regardless of what they, or the masses, regard as more attractive, to change an existing design sends a message that's pretty loud and clear.

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exactly. SEGA's sending a message and it isnt a good one either. In fact I almost feel offended.

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Doesn't Jeffery seem lighter too?

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not if you look at the CG verson of him in VF4. both are about the same color.

 

Ice-9,

You present a perfectly viable case with regards to Vanessa’s origins and the nature of Brazil’s populace, culture and its connection to Japan via Vale Tudo. Alas, as mentioned before; until Sega release definite info on her, it’s all conjecture.

Btw, I didn’t know that the Black component of Brazil included the Yoruba people, whose legacy I’ve inherited through my Father (my Father’s side ended up in Portugal, hence the name "Sebastian" before they could return to Nigeria and eventually move to England where I come in), thanks for the info. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

To address some of your points:

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ice-9 said:

I think the reason I am responding to this thread is that there is an implicit (and explicit I guess) accusation that AM2 is racist in the way they changed her appearance. Without more information, I just don't agree we can say such a strong and damning statement.

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I would say that Vith_Dos has been the most passionate contributer along that mode of thought, fair play to him. I admit my opinions don't deviate that far either yet I've been subtle about airing my own views, as the thread's host, in order to intice other opinions such as yours.

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ice-9 said:

I agree that the design change reflect AM2's belief that VF5 Vanessa is more attractive than VF4 Vanessa, but that in of itself does not constitute racism.

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No, it's the acceptance of social stereotypes propagated by the media and generations of cultural oppression that control said media and thus influence future and foreign cultures with their bias. But I believe you understand that.

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ice-9 said:

If black people in general consider lighter toned black women more attractive than darker toned black women, isn't it understandable that non-black people might think the same way?

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It’s not a generally held belief that’s as prevalent and all encompassing as say the caste system in Indian culture (but that’s a whole other tangent in itself). It’s a stigma that some people buy into and rarely in the open, for they know it’s born of their own anxieties. From my personal experience it’s most apparent in elderly people with a lifetime of inferiority issues who grew up when it was the social norm to belittle minorities openly. Fortunately/mercifully, they’re on their way out of this world.

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ice-9 said:

VF4 Akira is much darker in skin tone than VF3 Akira. What does that say about AM2's view on Japanese men? That darker skin tones for men are more masculine and attractive? What about Jeffry's and Wolf's growth spurt from VF4 to VF5? Or that all the women in VF are quite attractive in the first place?

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I believe that according to Sega's mindset and Japanese manga/anime culture as a whole that black skin is associated with power, strength and aggression. Especially when applied to Black characters. Take Streetfighter for instance; Akuma/Gouki has dark skin and is considered mysterious, powerful and violent but the true indication is "Evil Ryu" who's portrayed with darker skin when he became evil. If you're familiar with the KOF series then the same argument can be applied to Omega Rugal when he gained Orochi power (KOF 95).

Yet, heaven forbid that a woman would express these characteristics openly. Not as some form of temporary transformation but as a constant embodiment of strength via her physique. This philosophy conflicts with the norm of Japanese female character designs: Embodying effeminate features and strength, without the realistic factors of the human form that facilitate said strength: Muscles.

The fact that Sega did a 180 saddens me more than it offends me. Ironically, I now find Vanessa the most attractive of the females in VF5, but she was never meant to appeal to typical social perceptions of beauty in the first place. She was a visibly, physically powerful character that was female. Pity.

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ice-9 said:

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“Do we really care?†Well, the people who’ve chimed in, yourself included, seem to have an opinion on the matter...

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By this I mean whatever Vanessa's appearance, we'd all still be playing VF5. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Unless AM2 is truly racist, then fuck 'em.

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Mate, I was being snarky. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif Your participation and demeanour are self-evident. Thanks again for sharing your views and giving me cause to think harder. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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Yea light skinned black people are generally perceived to be more attractive than darker toned black women by non-black people. For some strange reason a lot of people think light skin = beautiful. If fact it's the opposite. Dark skinned black women look far more attractive than light skinned black women.

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Well...I was pretty surprised to hear it but according to my black friends, black people especially generally perceive lighter toned black women to be more attractive than darker toned black women. E.g. Beyonce, Alicia Keyes, etc. They also cited research studies that confirm this result...the theory is that lighter toned black people may have be a little racially mixed, which implies a white parent, which implies a higher social status during the slavery era, etc.

Dunno man it doesn't make much sense to me either.

The weird thing is that this trend of lighter = more beautiful cuts across multiple cultures. In Oriental Asia, for example, pale porcelain skin (not the unhealthy-looking white...clear, porcelain white) for women is prized. The same is true for India, where skin-whitening products for women fly off the shelves.

I think the trend is slowly starting to shift as tanned skin becomes more and more trendy (especially among the young), but it's interesting to see how universal the convention is.

 

That brings up the point how do we know Vanessa Lewis (if that is her real name (it isnt)) is even brazilian to begin with. Nobody knows her ethnicity but we know she grew up in brazil. Ok just jibing here, but maybe she had a tan for VF4 and it finally went away. These are the hard hitting questions the interviewers should be asking. That and "western vf wtf?"

 

We don't know jack about her past or her origins other than she was a young orphan, inducted by J6, rescued by a special ops soldier named "Lewis", adopted by him, took his name then became a security officer/special ops soldier herself when her adopted father was killed by unknown terrorists.

She practices Vale Tudo, likes to sing and is currently operating as Sarah Bryant’s bodyguard against Goh Hinogami who's been charged with her execution by J6 for defecting. That's everything.

Even for a VF character, that’s little to nothing to go on. VF5’s character descriptions haven’t been released so maybe they’ll mention more and answer some of the existing mysteries.

 

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Well...I was pretty surprised to hear it but according to my black friends, black people especially generally perceive lighter toned black women to be more attractive than darker toned black women. E.g. Beyonce, Alicia Keyes, etc. They also cited research studies that confirm this result...the theory is that lighter toned black people may have be a little racially mixed, which implies a white parent, which implies a higher social status during the slavery era, etc.

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I have HEARD that that was the way Black folk thought. I have heard of such studies. But I have never really seen that bias in practice among Black folk. By the way, Beyonce is not what we consider "light skinned". Alicia Keys.....Yes, Jason Kidd....Yes. Beyonce Knowles.....No. Remember there is just more genetic diversity within Black people than there is within any other race. By your Black friends' rationale, Alicia Keys would look better than Beyonce Knowles, who would look better than Tyra Banks. But it doesn't work like that.

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The weird thing is that this trend of lighter = more beautiful cuts across multiple cultures. In Oriental Asia, for example, pale porcelain skin (not the unhealthy-looking white...clear, porcelain white) for women is prized. The same is true for India, where skin-whitening products for women fly off the shelves.

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Yeah, that is weird because in places where the people are actually white, darker = more beautiful. They go the beach all the time, the woman lay on the beach topless trying to tan (a practice I do not mind, by the way), tanning salons make millions, and tanning lotions and sunscreens make billions. People should just learn to appreciate themselves the way they are.

 

Skin tone preference is dictated by the classes of the times. In the days when manual labor was widespread, tanned skin was a symbol of the common people. Having the luxury to avoid dirtying your hands and cultivate a pale complexion was likewise a marker of the upper-class, who were naturally more desirable.
As standards shifted in the modern world, the cubicle dwelling office worker has replaced the outdoor laborer as the common man. Pallid faces are now commonplace, so it's those who have the free time and money to vacation in the sun who are the new ideal.
Or so the theory goes, anyway.

 

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Adio said:
The fact that Sega did a 180 saddens me more than it offends me. Ironically, I now find Vanessa the most attractive of the females in VF5 but she was never meant to appeal to typical social perceptions of beauty in the first place. She was a visibly, physically powerful character that was female. Pity.

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This is somewhat my sentiment on the matter.

I didn't know much about Vale Tudo until Vanessa debuted; I just associated it with the Mixed Martial Art fighters from UFC, Pride etc. that I saw some years ago. Those fighters were quite big and powerful and Vanessa is big and powerful for a female so I respected that. Plus the fact she was very exotic: dark skin, white hair and green eyes. That appealed to me as well. She was the first character I tried to learn to play in VF4.

Seeing Vanessa's appearance in VF5 for the first time was a letdown for me. She no longer looked like she could inflict damage that could crumple an opponent. I didn't want to even imagine her even attempt a takedown into mount for it being incredible to my eyes. I didn't like the skin tone and eye color change either but it wasn't a big factor to me at all. I knew after time I would accept it and didnt ponder too much the new look.

It was only today did I learn that the founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, (and Vale Tudo to some degree) Hélio Gracie was developed with his small stature in mind. My perceived vision of Vanessa as an Amazon has changed a bit now.



P.S. Out the women Saiten mentioned, I'd pick Audree. She attracts me the most for her overall features. (Plus, I know she's a freak /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

 

I think that most people are unknowingly brainwashed by these subtle, subconscious hints that indicate that black is bad and white is good. Example: A black cat crossing your path is bad luck, does that make a white cat good luck?; blackmail is illegal, blackmail-black male; People wear black to a funeral, but to wear white at your wedding signifies purity.
Think about it, when you think of angels, do blond-haired, white-clothes wearing white people come to mind? You just might have been influenced to not think of a Black, Hispanic or even Asian angel come to mind instead. Just a theory.
That was a good observation from Vith Dos that maybe her tan was wearing off cuz my own skin tone goes from dark to light depending on where I reside and what activities I'm engaging in.

 

With what I have read so far, I find that I am more disgusted with the fact that her physique is different. But this holds true for everyone. I don't care much about the skin tone as I do about the features of the face. I am glad her voice is still intact as this is one of the things that still remind me of how strong she is.

I did notice Brads calves diminish in this version, but to that I ask do any of you think that Jeffry is smaller as well? In evo, he was huge and though he still looks Herculean, he is not as defined as he was before. His looks have even become more simple and thuggish. With this, maybe the programs they used to make the character model have not been pushed accordingly therefore making better models but still missing key features and nuances that sat with us as long as they did when 4 dropped.

Maybe it is the art and the technology? Maybe it is more than that? Whatever it is, they are still representing.

 

i hadn't even noticed her lighter skin color until somebody pointed it out to me, people in latin america are rarely concerned with something like that, even tho i know for a very cruel fact that japanese people are incredibly racist, so no big news to me that they didn't want to portray beauty in a darker skin tone

we're all animals to them

 

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Well...I was pretty surprised to hear it but according to my black friends, black people especially generally perceive lighter toned black women to be more attractive than darker toned black women. E.g. Beyonce, Alicia Keyes, etc. They also cited research studies that confirm this result...the theory is that lighter toned black people may have be a little racially mixed, which implies a white parent, which implies a higher social status during the slavery era, etc.

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show me these "studies." You sure it wasnt just their opinion? what does social status have to do with what people precieve?

I dont know about these "studies" but I call it how I see it. Like skinned black women tend to have a better looking face, while dark skinned black women have better looking bodies. I speak from experience, I'm tell'in ya.

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I have HEARD that that was the way Black folk thought. I have heard of such studies. But I have never really seen that bias in practice among Black folk. By the way, Beyonce is not what we consider "light skinned". Alicia Keys.....Yes, Jason Kidd....Yes. Beyonce Knowles.....No. Remember there is just more genetic diversity within Black people than there is within any other race. By your Black friends' rationale, Alicia Keys would look better than Beyonce Knowles, who would look better than Tyra Banks. But it doesn't work like that.

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Quoted for truth

 

Try searching for it!