Version C to Evolution

Well, it's been kind of quiet here at Junky's Jungle, so I'll try to spark some discussion. Plus, I need a break from work. Alright--I remember Zero-chan once posting a Playstation magazine writer's thoughts on how characters got stronger and weaker from Evo Version A to B. I'm going to try something similar, but from Version C to Evo B which we are all more familiar with.

This is not an exhaustive list, just stuff that jumps to mind.

Akira: Slightly worse
Better: Spalm-SDE the key addition.
Worse: Loss of guaranteed damage from + throw. ST not as reliable as before. SPOD weaker.
Wish AM2: Made Spalm consistently non-escapable or consistenty strugglable.

Pai: Much better
Better: Sooo many things. Easier to go to stance. Improved strikes.
Worse: Slightly weaker throwing game.
Wish AM2: Made > pounce easier to roll out of.

Lau: Slightly worse
Better: Somewhat useful stance. Better strikes, primarily +.
Worse: Loss of guaranteed damange from +.
Wish AM2: Made + truly half circular.

Wolf: Much better
Better: Useful sabaki. Return of HCB > . Hit throw easier to execute.
Worse: Knee much crappier in comparison.
Wish AM2: Either changed the command of the push + or made the SS one directional, i.e. +

Jeffry: Much worse
Better: Somewhat useful stance. +, his best addition.
Worse: Throws, throws, throws. The 8-frame kind. Loss of range, nerfed, and some loss in damage potential.
Wish AM2: Kept the stomp guaranteed after +. Or increased its or Splash Mountain's damage by 10 points. Or returned in the Version C form.

Kage: Slightly better
Better: and + make the difference, and improved Jumonji.
Worse: His Version C is better on paper. JM G-cancel slow again. Weaker +. Dodge attack made nearly useless.
Wish AM2: Not sure...but he could be weakened somehow. Have + take less damage.

Sarah: No comment
I don't know much about Evo Sarah, but my early guess is neutral to slightly worse.

Jacky: Much worse
Better: decent, and still has as an automatic floater.
Worse: A lot of things, but primarily BKC.
Wish AM2: A better substitute than kickflip to combo for low floats.

Shun: Much better
Better: Too many to talk about! Stance, throwing game, new attacks, etc.
Worse: Easier to lose DPs.
Wish AM2: Not have + push character back so far on block.

Lion: Much worse
Better: Catch throw, semi-useful new moves. Improved and throws.
Worse: Loss of recovery on long range attacks. Loss of + and second poke after sabaki.
Wish AM2: Made slightly combo-able? Weakened .

Aoi: Neutral
Better: Can reverse everything now. OK new moves.
Worse: Ground throws no longer guaranteed.
Wish AM2: No comment.

Lei Fei: No comment
Don't know much about Evo Lei Fei, but looks much better. Stronger strikes and stances probably.

Vanessa: Neutral
Better: OS too different to compare, but mount is great and damage potential improved.
Worse: Slightly worse throwing game overall.
Wish AM2: Changed command of OS to something else.

 

Good post ice-9 /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

A little contribution with some things I would add:

Akira: loss of float potential from shoulder ram (really that's the first thing I noticed when I played Evo Akira)

Lion: Less poweful throws, u mention ++ but FC++ ,++ that was his main throw in C does 10pts less and so does b++. I know he has new ones but they 're and which are already existing directions.


By the way you wrote about loss of recovery of long range moves, which moves comes to your mind, + ?

 

I'll just comment on the character I know best~

Jacky is stronger in evo.

It might seem that he has grown weaker....no this n no that....

But he is stronger.

Stronger throw game
Stronger n not to mention, easier combos!
Same old strong poke game~(of coz, his hiji is -6...but hey...it's a good elbow man!)

Alas
he has the same old weaknesses~

 

Good post. I'll just add my nonsense:

Akira
Bad: + (MC) -> DJK isn't as consistent as before. Sgpm doesn't push the opponent that far back anymore when it's blocked, plus it seems easier to throw Akira when it's blocked at close range. Shrm doesn't float as well as it used to /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif but IMO it has more "evasive" properties to it now. I agree with you on the ST throw. Not even close to what it was before. They've also toned down his reversals.
Good: The new knee is awesome!! Low hit detection, excellent float, wall combo potential, and only throw counterable. Yoho floats slightly higher now, plus you still get the same float after you follow up on the low punch inashi (which was virtually impossible in Ver.C).


Lei-Fei
Bad: + throw is weaker, because evade -> ++ can now be techrolled after the last hit, so the ground attack is no longer guaranteed. + now requires stance specific combos (instead of the old +, , +, stomp). + is now easier to interrupt if the second kick is delayed.
Good: New Bokutai stance gives him a slightly better close range game and overall, better mind games. + not only avoids high attacks, but also avoids certain mid punches and mid kicks (probably stance-dependent).

Jacky
Jacky got screwed, plain and simple. and + are pathetic in comparison to Ver.C. is -6 now? /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I guess too many people bitched about it. and cancel are gone. With all that said, he's still pretty damn strong.

Kage
Overall, I think he's slightly better because of + and new Jumonji options. I also think his okizime is stronger because of his new backturned ++. The new is bullshit compared to his old chop, so he's lost some range.

 

screw ++ MC -> +
++ MC -> ++,+,++ is guaranteed and does 1 more dmg /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

aoi is now much stronger.. more two-hit tanker moves (think similar to ++,).. guard cancels on many moves give her mindgame potential and her inashi/reversal game is uber strong now ;] popularity in arcades is rising heh

lei-fei is much the same as in ver C.. big change is combo creativity /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

jacky is definitely stronger, and has massive style compared to ver c.. i dunno about others.. i know jeffry got the shaft on throws and sarah has more combo options

 

wolf:

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Return of HCB +p ~ reverse hammer

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was doable in Ver.c on all females (other than dural )
but now this has expanded weights in EVO ^^

good:
.more reach with +
.decent sabaki
.extra command in catch stance (++!!!)
.better side kick
.quater circle hit with uf++
.new throw command ++ (sweet against walls)
.+ ~ ~ reverse hammer is now doable.
.f++ after low reversal (knee strike) roxxors.

bad
.low drop kick seems slower, or more punishable, don't know for certain.
.+ seems linear
.knee sux in comparison
.++ sux in comparison
.knee strike low reversal does'nt guarentee a + (struggleable)
.+++ low throw does'nt guarenteed a + or ground pick up.

wish ver.c knee please.....

imo, he has improved nicely on variety of throw commands, his delay game is still strong as ever too ^^

that's all i can be bothered to type right now.. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Shun
Good: Host of new useful moves, new throw, chouwan seems to float even higher (unconfirmed), better BT game, more staggers, better sabaki, long range moves from DS - including mid/low/fake guessing game.
Bad: New throw is annoying to input (for me it's alot more annoying than 270) and takes 3 DP, 270 throw now only adds 4 DP.

Lau
Good: New stance, lots of ways to enter tiger stance, new throws, new throw means even more choice for his FC game, new half-circular move, new FC b,f+P attack, more variety.
Bad: Still fairly linear - nothing else Lau rocks now.

 

sorry can't help it.

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Akira: loss of float potential from shoulder ram

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I thought his picks up about everything. and decent dmg. DLC picks things up real low too. blah seriously this isn't so bad.

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Jacky is stronger in evo.
It might seem that he has grown weaker....no this n no that....
But he is stronger.
Stronger throw game
Stronger n not to mention, easier combos!
Same old strong poke game~(of coz, his hiji is -6...but hey...it's a good elbow man!)


[/ QUOTE ]

Stronger throw game how? same , same , same dmg , same dmg i think (or about the same) different animation . huh??

Easier combo? like it was tough to press everytime something is in the air. or any variance. Maybe you are talking about Beat Knuckly kickflip combo? was it hard to watch stance for that before? /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

"Hiji", his elbow is always like that no? as far as i know, perhaps worse back in vf3. The reason it is good is its follow up P AND low sweep. ducking the backfist still impose some safety net for jacky. thus tougher for ppl to deal with.

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Bad: + (MC) -> DJK isn't as consistent as before

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It isn't? i thought it is the same (100% guranteed if you react right). Just lower dmg compare to ver.C, i think?

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Sgpm doesn't push the opponent that far back anymore when it's blocked, plus it seems easier to throw Akira when it's blocked at close range.

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oh well he got that tag-on now doesn't he? it better be more punishable if he decides to stop after one.

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They've also toned down his reversals.

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eh? how? he got lower dmg now? Didn't know they do much before (30-35 max) to really have any impact.

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throw is weaker, because evade -> ++ can now be techrolled after the last hit, so the ground attack is no longer guaranteed.

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true but seriously other staple combos doesn't do that much less, plus slam TR is harder. Do ppl TR these regularly now? sorry don't have chance to play against lei-fei much.

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now requires stance specific combos (instead of the old ... stomp)

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isn't stance dependent /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
plus now you actually have to be decent to follow up with decent dmg instead of the 1001 stomp combo (it didn't even look good).

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new Jumonji options

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huuh? what new moves does he have now that he doesn't have in C? back turned jumonji attacks? /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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I also think his okizime is stronger because of his new backturned .

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... i thought that is just a flashy move; sure now you can do that after every chop combos. But do ppl really fall for it? i thought you got some horrid rigor after you landed too, it is like saying Sarah's moonsault enhanced her ura, ok maybe in vf3. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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aoi is now much stronger.. more two-hit tanker moves (think similar to ,)

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?? you mean the new , ? that is the only one i can think of that is new '2-parts.' is throwcounterable, sure it is free 2 hit combo with just normal hit, but even slightiest delay won't combo the 2nd hit on even staggers. Btw + won't combo on normal hit, and are 2 mid hits, is mid-high. I donno if you can apply the same mindset for both.

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guard cancels on many moves give her mindgame potential

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..it has been the same in Ver C. if you are talking about the b,p into Auto Inashi, well i have yet seen anyone used that in a clip.

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Wolf .better side kick

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/versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif really? more dmg now or not throw counterable now?

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.knee strike low reversal does'nt guarentee a + (struggleable)

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well just as you said... if i am a wolf player and i miss shinning wizard i shouldn't even play him /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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knee sux in comparison

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yes, but i think it is a welcome change. we alrdy got a jeffery doing staple + whatever 80+ dmg combo on normal hits, ability to watch the hit condition and low punch cut the panicking low punches is much more rewarding isn't it? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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low throw does'nt guarenteed a + or ground pick up.

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well that thing does 70 dmg alrdy now right?

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sux in comparison

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sux how? it is 50/50 now when escaped as oppose to the old free low punch to the back . If you want dmg shouldn't you be doing HCB+?
If you want ring position well now you have , and old trusty GS. (oh and catch throw, and catch + blah blah blah)

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seems linear

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it is always linear, you can delay it so it seems it hit ppl while they are dodging. but if your delay timing didn't match your oppt's dodge, or your oppt didn't press G during his/her dodge, then your Ram will miss completely. (maybe it is just more ppl know about this now)

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Lau: new throws, new throw means even more choice for his FC game

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woohoo, 2 new throws! just that they are the same escape direction as what he had before. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

i donno i have no trouble doing from crouching before (it is like akira complaining he can't do double palm) so i don't really know what new options he had throwing wise from crouch.

seriously his hurtz too much on counter hit /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif 90+ dmg no stance required. Half lifebar for your '1' miss yomi. shrug, feels akira-ish /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

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new Jumonji options


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huuh? what new moves does he have now that he doesn't have in C? back turned jumonji attacks?

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New options, not new moves. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

kinda bored?

 

sorry final exam week gggaaarr... didn't mean to flame but easier to get irritated. Btw, IMF you guys not going to the california thing? sounds like a cool event to finally have every major city attend and settle the score for once. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif of course i will just be an innocent bystander /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif MD doesn't have enough ppl to form a team /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Jacky:
Good:
His new "face punching throw": ... So much better than his old bulldog...

His + & +,, is better...

He has more variety in canned combos which you can use / mix up / whatever if your opponent isn't expecting it...

Bad:
I belive his throw drains less...

They got rid of his second after .

His old elbow is now a punch, which means it can be auto-inashed by Jacky and Vanessa... plus the canned kick afterwards doesn't trace I believe... not as good as before...

Neutral: His punt kick () replacement seems to be a bit slower coming out, although he can hit afterwards to turn his back and be thow counterable...

You can still get good damage off of a major conter + and it's not throw counterable... I don't often use
...

-Alex

 

Hey, me and you verse the world.

 

[ QUOTE ]
huuh? what new moves does he have now that he doesn't have in C? back turned jumonji attacks?

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Yes, back turned jumonji attacks. Plus he has new options for exiting the stance.

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i thought that is just a flashy move; sure now you can do that after every chop combos. But do ppl really fall for it? i thought you got some horrid rigor after you landed too, it is like saying Sarah's moonsault enhanced her ura, ok maybe in vf3

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Backturned ++ isn't just a flashy move. It also enters jumonji stance if it's held down. Recovery is pretty fast. Just like every move in the game, no one will fall for it all the time, but it has it's uses /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

had fun venting?

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was it hard to watch stance for that before?

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Haha

Lord no~
Watching stances is easy.

The reason why I say it's easier is becos u dun really need to watch stance to do ur combos...at least in ver C, b+k+g was heavily stance dependant. Not so in Evo.

f,f +p+g is a better throw becos it leaves Jacky in a better position regardless of the throw being successful or escaped. I know I am not alone in saying his throw game has improved becos of this single modification.

Good luck with ur exams. I know how u must be feeling~ How many subjects do u have to endure?

 

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Lord no~
Watching stances is easy.

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just thought beatknuckle is one of the easier ones, cuz you got time till after the backfist comes out.

well, you are right about the scrubiness of ppk after b+k+g. but in C to max dmg you need to watch stance anyway, just low p in ver C instead of high p in evo. I've forgotten much about C now, but i thought you can do the same ppk in verC too no?

ff PG...i thought even netbreaker escaped is pretty much 50/50 and a distance away. I kinda liked the ability to get out of ring edge no matter your oppt escaped or not. Just checked the dmg, 40 up to 45... /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

Am I the only one who's distrubed by SG's avatar?

Jacky
Good: best hit throw in game. better/easier b+kg combo damage. better ff+k. better kickflip.
Bad: lost knee, f+p sucks, b+p.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shang said:

Am I the only one who's distrubed by SG's avatar?


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He's actually scarier in person when he's playing VF at CTF.

Bad: If akira gets any easier to play, I'm switching to Goh full time.

Good: I love the new knee animation it's all butter baby and it's still just as hard to do as before with a pad /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

 

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Jacky
Good: best hit throw in game.

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I didn't know Jacky's hit throw was so good. Seems to me like Goh would have the most useful hit throws. Wolf and Jeffry have some good ones too.


J_Chuang: We'll definitely try to make evo2k3. We're going to see you in NY in a few weeks right?

 

I love my Aoi hit-throws and I know those characters have good ones too, but Jacky's is just nasty! I had the pleasure of seeing it first hand saturday thanks to Shang and Jerky. It comes out so fast and it's probably pretty easy to time, nevermind it just looks demoralizing.

 

[ QUOTE ]
low throw does'nt guarenteed a + or ground pick up.


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well that thing does 70 dmg alrdy now right?


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meh, i'd rather have the ground pick up option, if my opponent was in low recovery, i'd either delay and GS as they rise with a low TE / try to evade, or toe stunner for 66pts (70 MC) for any real damage.

i see what you mean, but wolf's low throwing game is already pretty strong, the old +++ just allowed more option to set you up.

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Quote:
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++ sux in comparison


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sux how? it is 50/50 now when escaped as oppose to the old free low punch to the back . If you want dmg shouldn't you be doing HCB+?
If you want ring position well now you have , and old trusty GS. (oh and catch throw, and catch + blah blah blah)


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if i want damage, ring position, easy activation and another throw command to toss about other than , i'd want the old ++, if i'd want better TE recovery, i'd go for the arm lock swing. IMO, his new ++ is not the greatest of moves to try to finish off you foe with under pressure, it does'nt deal that much damage, and your get up recovery is longer if the move leave ur opp with leik 10 to 0 life (which it has many times /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif). mabye other players will differ on this issue.

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+seems linear


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it is always linear, you can delay it so it seems it hit ppl while they are dodging. but if your delay timing didn't match your oppt's dodge, or your oppt didn't press G during his/her dodge, then your Ram will miss completely. (maybe it is just more ppl know about this now)

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i read somewhere of some changes in EVO ver.B that wolf's shoulder charge is more linear, (can't find it by search right now) but i thought that this was the case while i was playing it. note that i typed "seems".