VF, Leroy Wing Chun and Tekken?

From time to time the discussion of what new fighting styles could be added to Virtua fighter. Wing Chun usually finds its way into the conversation Well, Tekken 7 has added Leroy Smith, a "Wing Chun " fighter. A pimped out version of Donnie Yen's IP Man interpretation

I played a few hundred matches to get a feel for the whole Wing Chun in Tekken thing.

I think somewhere under all of the fireballs, and pyrotechnics there are some nice Wing Chun animations in there. But its hard to tell. The rage art and rage drive animations make it hard to see what potentially might be nice animations. I could just barely make out some possibly legit moves. The community is bitching about how OP the Wing Chun character is. He has a few frame advantages here there, a good orbital attack. but nothing to really whine about,.,

But as I played, I could not help but think how much better of a job Sega and Virtua Fighter would do with Wing Chun

Tekken 7's presentation is garrish, and gaudy. Easily the worst in the series It lacks the elegance and beauty of Virtua Fighter's graphics, animations, and stages. Wing Chun's beauty would be much better show cased in Virtua Fighter. The VF community would know what to do and how to handle a good Wing Chun fighter.

Now would be a good time for Sega to announce a new VF6 and show all these pretenders how its really done
Tekken's Wing Chun, DOA's Tai Chi, would get handled properly by the AM2 team. Everybody knows, the VF version of all of the fighting styles is the gold standard. Now would be a good time for VF to show FGC leadership and to accentuate its graphic, balance, and beauty dominance, by releasing VF 6, two new fighters: Wing Chun, and Tai Chi and making it clear who's really the boss.

Tekken's Leroy Smith and his Wing Chun is passable in a "low-budget-film-kind-a-way". But Wing Chun in a FG is screaming for a Sega/AM2 interpretation, and so is Tai Chi. Sometime a new VF is released after two new fighting styles are finished for the game. Wing Chun, Tai Chi, desperately need an Sega/AM2 interpretation and are two styles that would complement the game.

Sega if you're watching, don't let Katsuhiro Harada and his Gaudy Wing Chun implementation be the industry standard for Wing Chun in a 3d fighter. Its so garrish The whole Tekken 7 game is Fighting Game Kitsch.

Please Sega, bring us VF6 and teach Harada what beauty, elegance, and balance should look like in a 2020 FG.
Release VF6 and give these other publishers something to reach for over the next 20 years.

 

I agree with the idea. Wing Chun is fucking dope and I would love to see a character filled with sabaki/inashi-based attacks, as subjective as this may be but...

This is all just your opinion written within extended prose betraying how much you like VF/SEGA/AM2. This is also fine. But not everything is subjective...

(and this doesn't even go into how there are so few arch-types of black men are presented in media and how these representation can be harmful, read as: Leroy is better in my head-canon as he's a former Black Panther Party member, and when he says in the cringe music video, he legit fights for his community, and this representation would be positive, daring (not trite), and insightful)

But this statement is objectively wrong. You don't really see/play fighting games the same way "Frame Masters" do, like when you wrote:

The problem is, the frames don't lie: they define the foundation of the game.

It's through understanding the system and the frames that we understand how and why certain characters are as strong/weak as they are on paper (and often reflects in reality either how often they win or how much they are used).

Akira has been seen as the absolute best character in VF5FS since the earliest iterations (back to the play testing in 2010) of this version of VF not because of his animations, his characterization, or whatever subjective or superficial things. It's because his key attacks have great frames and the system is complements his tools.

In a game with lazy throw escapes, a 13 frame is godlike. In a game that is fundamentally about elbow and throw, that guard break is an amazing tool on top of a good throw game and the best elbow in the game (13 frames, fuzzy on block, +4 on normal hit [which sets up ], another godly move, +8 on counter). This is in-addition to a 14 frame combo starter that is +1 on block and leads up to 70ish damage and is hard to punish on evade, a 13~14-frame anti-sabaki attack which is one of the best low punishers of its class due to the easy wall combos. In addition to K: which will defeat many mids and set up the mid-GB-Throw guessing game after a stagger. In addition to the fact that the input skill needed to play any character much-less Akira has been lowered considerably since VF4 (compare old vs. new combos and the buffering required). In addition a mid attack that beats lows, has an awesome hitbox, does good damage and awesome damage near a wall, and becomes a full circular in certain frame situations. In addition... in addition.

It was clear to anyone who dug into the frames and played a lot that he was clearly the best and none of the tier charts through out the years budged on where he belonged. It's the game's system, it's the frames.

Now after that long segway, to the point: people are complaining about Leroy because the system and frames don't lie. That orbital is faster and safer on block and leads to higher damaging combos that don't require any execution. He's got a demoman/hellsweep that doesn't require execution or getting a clean hit. He's got awesome punishing tools that require no execution but do awesome damage. He's got great strings that jail and force the opponent to stand and block highs that should be duckable. He's got super good parries that can be mashed and lead to awesome reward. He's got all kinds of awesome shit that all the good characters have, but a better version of them. People aren't complaining because they don't know the match-up, they're making legit criticism because they learned it and it sucks.

If we were to just change the context, it's still clear: Jin wasn't strong in T4 because he finally learned "traditional karate," it was frames and the system. Steve/Nina/Feng/etc. weren't strong in T5 because of X, Y, or Z... it was frames and the system. Bob wasn't strong in T6 because of wu-wu bullshit, it was the frames and system. On and on, change the game, the same applies.

"Frame Masters" are the ones to listen to because they play the game to it's limits. They know what's up because: they understand the system and they know the frames.

So, uh... No.

 

Wing Chun (Ip Man style) would be an awesome new fighting style in VF6.

Leroy T7 image , presentation and animation is terrible.

 

Leory is an example of why I don't want Harada to come even near touching VF.

Trash

 

Ok i guess i'll spend 2 words about this character.

Personally, seeing finally a wing chun character in a fighting game made me wonder if I should go back to tekken and give the game another shot; so i started doing some youtube searching for movelist clips, guides and stuff like that.

Aris from avoiding the puddle did a stream that is also in his YT channel making a good overview of the character and he said: "he's cheap and will be patched for sure".

His gameplan is basically the same of every other character in the game (keep in mind i'm a noob in tekken and don't know if besides stepping and whiff punishing there are other ways to play the game), while i see a wasted opportunity for a character that should be weak on the distance and find a way to get closer, maybe deflecting a hit or two to gain distance, but i'm wondering and i want to keep the post short.

But now let's move to what really disappointed me: the fact that he has a lot of gibberish moves of wang that have nothing to do with wing chun, or at least not the kind i studied with my master: oribal heel, flying forward kick, roundhouse and stuff like that.
I was expecting to se parries and deflecting, chain punches that will lead to different follow up and maybe some stepping. I know there are parries and chain punches in the animation, is just that i don't feel they work the way they are intended, I hope this makes sense.

What's Positive about this character is that now there's a wing chun precedent and other fighting games may consider putting one too in their roster KOFF KOFF vf KOFF KOFF.

 

Aris said "Leroy is cheap and will be patched for sure" . GTFO. What character in Tekken isn't cheap? Aris does know shit besides how to open Capcom and Namco up to a #metoo sexual harrassment lawsuit. When was the last time Aris placed at a tournament? "Avoiding The Puddle" , yeah right it's more like "Avoiding The Tournaments", because he knows he'll get bodied. Aris: Owned , you ass.

 

Harada and the likes of Aries can troll.

I mean it's the only 3D fighter in the market after all.

 

Yep. Good point. That is true to an extent, but not always entirely true.
It's how you program a game, that determines if frames in an animation, move, recovery, block sticking/block stun etc. do what they are supposed to do, or not etc.

A good example of this, are cpu opponents in classic SF2 games. The cpu opponents, have a tendency to literally change frame recovery data, block an attack and immediately counterattack, when they shouldn't be able too, and even make themselves invincible to attacks a times. It was later discovered, that those old dude SF2 programmers back then, made a script in SF2, that actually allows the cpu opponents, to change frame properties at will during a match. Which is lame.

Also, frames and frame data in SF games, moreso the older games, and especially in games like tekken, are known to be not consistent, incorrect and very wonky, when used in actual game play. I have always had a suspicion, that these programmers intentionally, or lazily program alot of random outcomes for moves, recovery and blockstun in their games.

 

How is ease of execution a metric of whether a move should be nerfed ? Whether or not it is a parry or is safe on block isnt a metric either. What's difficult about 666P ? Or 4P+K /1P+K? Absolutely nothing. Its hypocrisy and that whole argument against Leroy could be copy and pasted against any Tekken character, or Aoi and Jacky for that matter. There are some characters that bend or break the rules of a given fighting game. You have to learn the matchup and adapt. There's nothing in Leroy's moveset that keeps him from getting whiff punished or thrown. Braindead, auto pilot playing flowchart players, you know who you are, need to come out of their comfort zone and level up instead of crying for nerfs.

 

I'll just drop this thing here

 

Yeah right. Point blank we need more Male African American representation in Tekken 7. Raven got a sex change into T&A, so he's out. If Leroy was Japanese or Korean , Knee wouldn't say shit. Were is the Knee video asking to nerf Devil Kazuya's Eye beams? Oh right, it doesnt exist. And the Knee Akuma needs his fireballs removed video? Yeah, you'll get back to me on that.


You want balance in the game with boxing Kangaroos and Panda Bears? Tekken never was and never will be balanced. If you got parried by Leroy its because you play by flowchart and youre predictable to a fault.

Lets be real here, if there was an actual Tekken fighting league in real life, a black guy would be top of the league. John Jones, Spider Silva, Mike Tyson, eg. If Leroy is top-tier, so be it. An African American belongs on the mount rushmore of Tekken's top tier. I have spoken.

 

Interesting tidbit, I'd love to read a link on that (if it actually applies to the versus mode of the game) But when it came to CPU opponents: of course they modified the data... That's sounds like a way to extract more coins out of a arcade goer.

Regardless of that, at least for 2 decades now nearly all (fighting) games worth playing (and even ones that arenot: like tekken and anything that isn't VF lol) have been made with a consistent system. Hell each Tekken and VF became more systematic in their design with each release: you cannot claim that punishing attacks isn't intentionally pushed.

 

Sebo, Sebo, Sebo.... I largely agree with you dude. Please don't misunderstand me. I have intimate knowledge of frames!!! I could play VF totally from a frame perspective. I choose not to for all the strange reasons I've listed over the many years I've been playing the game.

Actually, I'm sad that the game developers ever released frame data. If you remember there use to be a time when frame data was not readily available, and people still managed to enjoy fighting games just fine. I think my original VF strategy guides had no frame data whatsoever These days, if we don't have frame data some how the game has become useless. I literally hate what the frame approach to fighting games has done to the game play. Its like playing chess by the numbers. Many experts play chess by the numbers and that's fine, but it takes the beauty out of the game

There are some strings, some mixups, some moves that are unsafe, risky, and inappropriate for the situation, but still look good, feel good to pull off, or show of the virtual martial art design of the character that are never used in high level play. There are some characters that aren't regularly used because they under perform in a frame aware world (What a Fucking loss!) There once was a time flashy, unsafe, risky play was fun. Now everyone is so calculated, and there is so much fucking frame counting , that the strings are predictable , the combos are predictable, the wake-ups are predictable. Its just turned in to plus frame this, disadvantage that, Oh no I missed my punish and dropped my combo All of the Style, Finesse, Panache is gone. Everybody's focused totally on the "Meta" we've over analyzed the analysis, to the point where a VF match can almost be played on paper without anybody throwing a punch. Hell just give both players stick men characters and frame data and have at it. No wonder we can't get new players. No wonder fighting games are at the bottom of the barrel. No wonder fighting games are in the back in the dark, in the corner of the booth at video game tournaments. Maybe if more time was spent on martial arts immersion, and less time on frame counting we could grow our FG communities.

But I digress. The reason I posted about Leroy is the potential beauty of his Wing Chun animations. I could give a fuck of whether he is OP or not, or whether his orbital is superior, or whether he has plus frame advantage where every other character is neutral of negative. The Tekken system is bullshit afaic. I bring up Leroy's Wing Chun, because it has been mentioned as a possibility for VF many times. And I think VF, AM2, Sega's approach to Wing Chun would be totally awesome and beautiful. I brought up Leroy's Wing Chun to accentuate the fact that Tekken's rage art, and rage drive animations, fuck up what looks like some beautiful animations. I hope that Sega doesn't leave Harada's interpretation of Wing Chun, as the last word on the subject. I'm hoping that VF6 brings a legitimate beautiful interpretation of both Wing Chun and Tai Chi.

Yes I'm biased, about VF. Yep everything I say is subjective. I'm not even trying to be scientific, or mathematically correct. I do enough of that in my day job. At the end of the day for me VF is all about the fun and immersion into a world of Virtual Martial Arts, where I get to play make-believe, and imagine whether Monkey Kung Fu, can beat Shaolin Kung Fu, or how kick boxing looks as it faces Sumo, or what answer Karate would have for Ninjitsu. I don't give a damn about counting frames, or guaranteed this and safe that. For me its all about the fun of considering a fantasy world where the various martial arts face off against each other, the beauty of the execution, the beauty of the stages, the colors, the graphics, the clash of styles.

The last thing I think about when playing VF is my opponent's life bar and how many frames I need to reduce it to zero.

After all I'm the master of loss. Nobody loses better than me, and nobody looks as good doing it

 

I haven't seen Po online on PSN since the early days of FS. How about stop nerfing the Black characters ok? Jeffrey got nerfed to shit in FS. You have to be a masochist to play him. Vanessa got her reversals taken away in FS, while Aoi the Asian princess can reverse two handed attacks and gets an auto parry stance. Akira gets an extra guard breaker on top of the one he already had, and gets to keep all his revesals, high middle and low. Its bullshit that characters of color get disregarded and ruined because of cultural indifference.
Don't add Leroy to this pattern of injustice.

 

Aye. Good question. Now you have me thinking.

 

That is a lot of words just to say, "I don't like it when my opponent blocks my fail to hitcheck //: and knows how to follow up after it." and "It's a shame that people can now go into dojo and properly learn to deal with stuff that seems abuse-able."

Also just out of curiosity, what exactly are these strings and attacks your heart yearns to see used at to level play? List them all. And your list cannot be complete if you leave out Kage's , such a tear jerker.

 

For sure, I could go into the dojo setup my opponent to do whatever move I don't like, or that I always get suckered by, and then see what the dmg, frame advantage, disadvantage scenario looks like, see what my options are to respond, to either beat, match, or at least survive my opponents attack. Count my plus on block, or my wake up frames, or see if I have anything that takes less frames to respond that what my opponent just hit me with., but that kind of game play is boring to me. I know, it gives a lot of folks comfort that they can finally go into the dojo and just run the numbers that will give them a chance to finally mathematically beat , match or at least give them a fighting chance. I'm happy for all those folks that get their charge that way, but that's not me.,

I'm far more interested in the beauty of a string, or sabaki, or reversal than in how many frames it burns, or whether its safe or not. I like the martial arts dance between two characters the ebb and flow of attack and defense regardless to whether something is punishable on block or whiff. Sebo, I love the choreography of it all, the win/loss meter has never really meant anything to me in VF. Its the look of the game, the simulated martial arts, the animations, the beautiful stages and styles, the balance and uniqueness of the characters.

Now, after all that's taken care of, then I do from time to time, see how much damage a particular combo, or string does (not necessarily to determine if it will be my opponent or not) but rather to see what value the developers felt about that string or combo.

As I've said on these forums many, many times, I enjoy fighting the AI because of all of the possibilities that present themselves during an AI match.

You see my friend,., Once two frame masters, know each other's game, that know what's punishable and what's not, and they know which combos kill and which won't, and they've master wall damage, whiff damage,etc. There are just certain moves and strings they simply never, ever use, because those strings , or moves are unsafe, risky, stupid, or whatever. And to that extent those frame masters are missing out on some of the game's beauty and finesse Things get very boring and predictable for the frame counters, not unless you get somebody that's prepared to play very very ABARE.

Sebo if frames based knowledge/game play does it for you, its all good my friend. No harm, no foul. Frame based fighting is what FG have evolved to (that's what everybody's doing these days). So your opinion is in the majority. (Mines is obviously on the fringes) But to be sure the glory days of all the fighting games, when it all started, when the superstars of FG were just being created, nobody even knew what the frame data was because the game developers didn't release it (at least not intentionally) And we all still managed to have a helluva lot of fun. Many major tournaments were fought and won, and no one had the frame data analysis to help them figure out how to beat a string, or how to trade combos with their opponents, or which moves were better than other moves. Somehow we all managed to do okay prior to the release of frame data.

Now, in walks E-sports, streamlined move lists, streamlined character rosters, and frame data DLC, rage arts, and power up meters, comeback modes and the whole thing has changed, pretty dull, boring, predictable, and not as beautiful as it once was. No more focus on the aesthetic of character martial art styles, no more focus on the uniqueness of character martial arts styles and balance, or on the beauty and awesomeness of the stages, arenas and environments. Instead its all about orbitals, wake up, long range, short range attacks. combo out of disadvantage possibilities, whats punishable on whiff or block, how many plus frames a character has after such and such move, blah, blah wall damage, blah blah guaranteed this or that, and who cares what it all looks like or whether it even remotely resembles in martial art any where. Its all about a frame data brawl to reduce the meter to zero Tekken , MK, DOA, might as well just feature stick figures (small, medium, and large) stages ( wall, no walls, breakable walls) as long as the frame data is published and the players can comfort themselves with the knowledge that they always be able to figure out a way to win, then its all good. As long as we can show with frame data that beyond a shadow of a doubt Leroy's Wing Chun needs to be nerfed everybody's happy.

Everyday, I try to block out the frame data that I do know. I try my damn best to not use it, but rather do the moves that I want to do, when I want to do them, the way I want to do them, and why I want to do them and who I want to do them to (win or loose). To hell with the frame data. As they use to say when I was coming up; Tricks are for kids

 

Exactly Po. Your version is pretty long winded, but my sentiment is this: if you have been playing Virtua Fighter since 1993 like I have, you are not going to give a fuck about win counts. I laugh at the people who want to go first to 5 first to ten, as if that matters. The only people that I find firsts to tens even worth watching are top players like GT and Adam Yuki. To me first to tens are supposed to be like the Super Bowl, not an everyday thing.

 

I was just watching GT and Adam play. Yeah I think it was EVO 2018., really high level. Homestay Akira OMG.,.

And yea, the African American, or black fighters, I thought VF's sun tan customization was adequate. If you want to make a darker skinned character you can.

Tekken 7 is trying to do the same thing. There darker colors however look hideous in some cases.

TBH I think Soul Calibur 6 nails it, you can make your character male, female, old, young, and can pick what ever skin color suits you. The first thing I did is make a African Samurai using Mitsurugi style. Yasuke

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke

VF, Tekken, and DOA could learn a lot from Soul Calibur's 6 character creation mode.