VF, Leroy Wing Chun and Tekken?

@masterpo

Without the knowledge of frames, how do you know that you're not losing as well as you could be?

 

So youre saying anybody can get a sun tan and be African American? Did you learn that from watching that egregiously racist 80's movie "Soul Man"? /Facepalm. Thats not how ethnicity works bro.

 

First bro,..,.,. I'm African American, second, I'm merely talking about skin color not ethnicity.

I'm simply offering a workable solution to skin color customization. Typically the average VFDC'er doesn't care about character back stories and therefore ethnicity is usually not an issue. But for some reason Leroy Smith has touched the racism nerve on those for and against more African Americans in Tekken. Some are happy that finally another black dude (to replace Raven, Bruce.,) has been added to Tekken, some are pissed that he has a pimp persona, or is named Leroy and has dreads, and is in some way a stereotype. Some are pissed that he's an over powered pimp with a pimp cane and a pitbull and are not happy that they can't dispatch or give him the comedy ending that their racist inner selves want to give him.

Are Leroy (Tekken 7) and Zack (DOA) racist tropes, stereotypes, comic relief meant to be laughed at? Were Raven and Bruce removed from Tekken because they were too respectable? If we don't like how we're being depicted in video games, or if we don't like the fact that we're left out of video games, the solution is to not make the purchase, and reward those game developers and publishers that show the proper respect.

I'm just sayin Soul Calibur's character's creation avoids "some" of the controversy by letting the player select the skin color, gender, age, voice type of their choice. VF avoids "some" of the controversy by sun tan, or skin tone customization.

If DOA, and Tekken had a similar character creation approach to Soul Calibur 6 I seriously doubt whether there would be any racial controversy with Leroy Smith or Zack. Its the perception of gender bias, or race bias, or age bias in the roster that leads to these kinds of discussions.

There is so much stereotyping in fighting games, cultural, racial, gender, geographical, somebody is going to be offended somewhere if you look too closely at a fighting game. Soul Calibur's approach, where you can design the look, gender, age, body type, skin tone of your character is about the most sensible approach a game developer can use.

On the other hand DOA gets it wrong. Forcing everyone to accept a set roster look and feel will eventually cost them everything. Tekken saw their problem and added a skin tone customization option (at the very least). The skin tone customization reduces the pressure (a little).

BTW., Soul Man from the 80's was garbage and juvenile. On the other hand Watermelon Man from the 70's is more to the point

 

Po, too long didnt read. You posted a wall of text and as usual , said jack shit. Giving Akira a sun tan does not solve the problem of lack of African American male representation in VF. So your "solution" is totally worthless . Have someone proof read your post for a stupidity check. Finding out that you are African American is actually depressing. Role-playing a Shaolin monk from a shitty 70's show, you must be a "brother" from Idaho.

 

I have knowledge of frames , and I have the best possible spectacular losses!

 

Lol.

 

First, I was referring to how you flippantly dismissed the evidence of Leroy's OPenis. But with a predictable dodge, you've moved that goal post. But to be honest, Tekken is a dumb trashcan set aflame. And sure the animations suck, and it also sucks that so many black characters get tied to shitty and harmful stereotypes. (last point I think is the most important of this bunch, but topic for another day)

Second, the main thing I get out of your posts is Bags of Sand. The way you talk about this false dichotomy of either enjoying the game and playing stupid and knowing frames but not being able to enjoy the game is reminiscent of how the title character from 40 Year Old Virgin describes boobs: you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

To think there are players out there with tens of thousands of games and that they just think about it from a mechanical set of eyes devoid of joy... like do you watch tournaments or live streams?

Players don't just do the perfect attack at the perfect moment while following mathematical flow charts, there are side steps/oms, evades, standing and crouched dashes, delays, strings that are cut short to force a guess, cancelled attacks, combos that aren't max damage but used to set up meaties, option selects, reading the opponent won't tech a fall so you go for otg combos, match-up knowledge (character or player), and a whole lot of psychological fuckery that goes into yomi (etc, etc). There are so many things layered onto a basic understanding of the system and frames. And while you can perform many of the above without fundamental understanding of how to play the game, if you get that 1,000th blocked in a match, someone who put a little more effort is gonna get that free damage... just don't don't write an essay ex post facto saying they're boring/soulless automatons because you can't adapt.

This is pretty much the same kind of argument I'd get in PMs from Backbonebreaker/Rageam2622/other Eternal Hunters who would complain that I "kept using the same combos over and over" or using "the same few attacks" but ignored the context of themselves spamming the same strings without thought, like do you guys don't want me to punish that sweep with a and 90 damage combo? Sorry, but no thanks, I enjoy the game more when at least one person looks competent on the screen.

Like where do we start?

What? What strings are we talking about? You still haven't answered that. Also, really? What strings "feel good to pull off?" I have never came close to moistening my pants doing Akira's DLC or Jacky's . What?

I started playing online a few days over a year ago. And while there simply are not any players online most of time in Worldwide, in the Japanese servers there is fair representation of all the characters (granted too many Akiras and Jackys, but my Word Document indicates there is a lot of everything).

Yeah, I remember those days too. It was game nights with fellow scrubs. And then someone learned about frames and other things and those that actually cared about the game learned to keep up while the shitty ones left forever. And I can tell you from personal experience (in my case it was Soul Calibur 2): learning about this aspect of the game increased my drive to learn more. And the more I learned the more I enjoyed.

It's called strategy.

It's called situational awareness.

This goes back to strategy: you always do the same shit, no hit checking, no delays, no stopping half-way and trying for a mix-up... is it the opponent's fault if I'm being stupid? That'd be on me.

What? What are you saying here? Like are they doing stable combos that are too easy, or like the aforementioned Eternal Hunters: do you get upset because the opponent does max damage/wall carry combos? Again, why is the burden on the opponent, especially when the person calling foul doesn't perform combos PERIOD?

What? Who are we talking about here? Is it the opponent that does the same thing on wake up or you? Regardless, are you bemoaning predictability? Change it up or force the opponent to. What even is the issue here?

Bags of Sand dude.

Again with the Bags of Sand. Like people legit still enjoy listening to the radio for live sports games, and even then there are even more layers of what is going on in VF: you just need to know what you're even looking at.

This is probably the biggest pile of sand wrapped up in a hyperbolic condom. No. What? NO. wHA? So because people know how to play the game, we can't get new players?

Dude, new players come from new releases of games. This site got a huge burst when VF5 dropped and again when it dropped on Xbox, and even bigger when VF5FS dropped. The problem is: SEGA doesn't support this game or care about the community.

When it comes to other games: they get new releases and constant updates. Tekken is bigger than it ever was, regardless of it being an over-inflated piece of shit game.

Again, games with support are doing about as fine as they ever have done. But this goes back to those game nights I mentioned above: learning to actually play a fighter takes a lot of effort and dedication. There is so much to to learn just for a single character in a games (shamelessly points to the Jeffry wiki and combo sections), but is that the fault of players who know the rules or the developers who keep their games too bloated with content?

This is wu-wu.

Addressed above, but... you just can't see beyond those Bags of Sand.

What?

You either don't watch high level play or you don't know enough to know what you're even watching.

I'm just gonna cut and paste what I wrote typed above for emphasis:

What?

You either don't watch high level play or you don't know enough to know what you're even watching.

Here is where I know you for a fact don't know what you're talking about.

Abare means to attack at disadvantage. Is doesn't matter how many "very"s you do that abare with. Examples: opponent is a -1 or beyond, your will stuff anything the do. They at -3 or higher, your elbow will beat their every time. They at -5 or greater? Your 17 frame launcher with beat their every time.

What. Are. You. Talking. About?

Now I'm not old enough to know or remember whether or not the same terminology was used, but knowledge of recovery frames has been known for about 30 years. That's literally how combos worked in the shitty Street Fighter games since probably the beginning. Shit, even if those first combos weren't intentional, it was the players that dug deeper to learn all they could so they could level up.

"But on no, I miss the days where all you did was throw out single attacks and mash buttons, but those pesky kids learned shit and developed strategies... that ruined fighting games as a genre!" <- this is what you sound like

I'm gonna call bullshit on this.

And why are we bemoaning something that makes the process of learning a game easier?

Like if you don't understand frames as a new player and you're playing against someone who has some rudimentary knowledge, and you keep losing every trade and every game you're gonna quit the game faster than if you know about the simple concept of "oh... if I do this, it isn't my turn if it gets blocked... so maybe I should ADAPT."

Already addressed above, but like tone down that WU-WU.

Also I'm just gonna cut and paste what I wrote typed above for emphasis:

What?

You either don't watch high level play or you don't know enough to know what you're even watching.

What?

No

and

No

and

What?

 

Keep it nice ma dudes.
We are all Virtua Fighter fighting game friends here.

 

I don't think there was anything mean spirited above.

Even if that were entirely the case, if grandpa starts saying silly things you have to check him, otherwise the kids at the other table might think he's a positive role model

 

Lol!

 

@Sebo, actually I watch high level play every day. I respect your play style (its a case study in classic frame strategy very good). I consider you high level. I do understand the shit out of frames. I've been watching high level play since the days of Chibita, Bun, Bun, heruru, etc. I helped in the past and continue to help fund VF tournaments, VF efforts, vids, and I help fund this site. sebo I understand the game intimately, and every aspect about it. I understood exactly why you beat me 50 matches to none or was it (100 to none) the last time we played. I saw all of your setups coming and let them come. I played abare 100% of the time. I made one punishable move after the next. If you could tell, I didn't throw a single launcher (or at least not on purpose) , and I purposely avoid Lei Fei combos. If I did any Lei Fei combos in our matches its was purely a mistake. The fact is I don't personally like the 5,6,7+ hit combo/floating game play style. I know they help to win games, but to me its ugly I like beautiful game play I always have. Obviously that's subjective you might find floating a character from one side of the ring to the next beautiful, I don't For the most part, the more realism the more beauty. 10 hit combo = Win = Ugly

I enjoy the game for different reasons than you do. I respect your point of view. I wish you much success in your journey in mastering the frame, combo, advantage, and disadvantage strategies. Have you caught up to the Japanese players yet Hopefully there will always be players that will push you to learn more frame data, more wall strategies, more setups, more ways to back into a launcher, blah, blah, blah. It that keeps you playing the game, its all good

I try to play VF (as much as possible) as a realistic combat simulator. So I only throw one or two strikes at a time, three at most. Launches, floaters, and ensuing combos take the realism out of VF for me. So I personally choose to abstain. If I ever throw a 4+ hit combo, its was a mistake and is a hold over from very old habits.

That might be hard for you to understand. As I've said before I enjoy the UFC MMA games. The hit physics are reasonably realistic. I wish VF physics were a lot more like the UFC games.

So, when I play VF, I restrict the way I play to the most realistic form I can have given its VF. That means (I avoid throwing launchers, I avoid throwing 4+ hit combos) . Please don't make the mistake and think that I can't execute any of Lei Feis combos whenever and wherever I want, I can. I just think they're ugly and imo they take away from the beauty of the game.

So now you know my friend the perfect VF game for me, would have the same kind of physics that are found in the UFC games, and it would not have any launchers, or 4,5,6,+ hit combos. There would be no floaters whatsoever. No launchers.

But of course that's not the VF we have. So I do the best I can to have the play style I want , with the VF we got, even if my opponent is highly motivated to launch me at every opportunity, and pull 5,6,7,8 hit combos, setup wall damage combos,etc. No matter how much punishment and losses I take. I try to stick to as realistic of kung fu style as I can given my character's move set.

But I've got nothing but respect for you my friend. You just have me all wrong.

I want as much realism as possible, and I try to play with as much realism as possible, even it means that I lose all the time, and that's exactly what it means. I lose 98% of my matches

 

From my recent studies I've learned about historical materialism, dialectics, and contradiction. All things (people, movements, etc) have a contradictory element within them.

But... what?

You lament how predictable games become when "frame masters" play.

Yet,

So you intentionally do the same thing over and over, talking about playing the game in a way that looks beautiful... some how these things are beautiful: Whiffing Hai repeatedly, opening with , not mixing up Doku with something not canned, and playing Lei-Fei *without* stance dancing.

Yet you almost never evade.

First, go outside more.

And I agree, I think combos are ugly. I hated when they added bounces in Vanilla, and I hated when they added bounds and standing bounds in FS. But I've played (almost) every VF, and for almost 30 years there have been floats since the first game. They're part of the series, and to not use them is ignoring the "beauty" of the game's rules. With Jeffry, I have a whole slew of different options if I finish a combo with // or that fun set up I was testing on you doing > > :2-: > vs wake up. So many options, and after I pick one, I open up new pathways to explore.

But to actively avoid this aspect of the game... it's like saying, "Queen is overpowered and I don't like how the knights/bishops move, so I don't use them in chess, oh and here is an essay about how much I like pawns with inserted emojis justifying my odd position oh and yet another reference to some shitty EA game also this game that I like, I actually don't like it but instead play it with self imposed rules that keep me from learning about how deep the system goes and how so many more options open up the more I put in but instead do the same attacks over and over again to lose on purpose."

The combo you did a lot (by "accident") was > , even if you don't believe in using combos, doing and using Kyo options or stance shift would remove predictability and make the game more interesting for you to play and anyone else to watch.

You bombastically and so self-assuredly claim to know *so* much about the game

It's comments like that make me even bother responding.

Where is the humility? I think you forgot the first lesson, grasshopper.

Eh, I'm not gonna delude myself: I'm a dojo nerd who mashes online to test my wiki/combo section updates. I live in the middle of the ocean, I work too many work hours to go to a gathering to play the one other person who plays the game here and I'm both too poor and see it ecologically irresponsible to fly around the world to play a game.

I don't know everything, it's why I actively try to teach myself whatever I can. It's why I've dumped so much time learning and posting my findings here. And even then I can't retain all that knowledge at once because I'm (for the better) distracted with a lot of things that actually matter. I have a goal with VF though, either get the Jeffry wiki/combo section updated to a point where I see them finished and/or get at least a few more accounts in the top-100 and then I retire.

Literally hundreds of them. About 90% of my list on a word document are Japanese.

Living where I do my connection to the west coast is equally as bad as my connection to Japan, and 3 of my accounts are set in Japan. Unlike WorldWide, there are almost always players in the lobby, and it's how I managed to squeeze in about 12,000 games last year.

 

Sebo, all very valid criticisms of me. No problems. But when I lament predictable,
I'm referring to the spectator aspect of the frame masters. Once everybody reaches a certain level the matches just start to look the same (to me) between similar characters. Everybody looks for the same punish under the same conditions, everyone has learned to choose the most advantage combo based on the situation and character. There has been so much emphasis on Frame counting, whiff punishing, wall damage setups that its taken the surprise out of it for me (when watching high level play) . I'm not trying to detract from anyone's dedication and hard work., its just that Everyone has played each other so much that for me its all getting a bit Of course I am guilty of the same thing just from another perspective

The frame counting and numbers approach to fighting games to me is like having someone describing fucking using terms from a biology book, or medical reference. Insert the penis approximately 2.7 centimeters into the vagina only after 37.3 ms prior to ovulation, take note of the females body body temperature, be sure to use the celsius scale...
Yea, if you master the instructions sufficiently both parties will achieve orgasm. I dunno, kind-a takes the fun out for me personally. And that's just my take on the whole thing, I'm aware that others see it differently and I honestly don't mean to belittle their positions. I guess my descriptions are over the top really just to communicate my own feelings on the subject, not to disparage others.

For instance when I watch online matches that have announcers/commentators, that are constantly calling out button commands e.g "2 P P", "Back Down K", or okay he just wiffed the attack here comes the punish, that's gonna leave player 1 at negative blah, blah, blah it distracts me from what beauty there is in the match. Most of the time I have to turn the sound down, and just watch the visuals. While watching the match, I much rather hear about the two fighting styles involved, the history of the players, or characters, the stages, back story of the characters. the origins of the moves, within the style, etc. If the commentators are going to call out particulars, then call out the move names, or types., I really don't enjoy hearing the names of the button sequences being pressed, or how many graphic frames are involved in the exchange and who comes up short, or how much life bar someone has. Tell me about the stage, its history, the artwork, hell talk about the sound track. I can see whose winning and I don't need the commentators to give me a frame by frame breakdown as to why the winner is winning based on the current balance of frames in the match. The beauty of the match speaks for itself. Instead I would like to hear Goh's commentators critique Goh's use of Judo, or Jean's use of Karate, or Brad's use of Kickboxing etc. What about that Sumo when did it start, who are the real Sumo champs IRL, What is the difference between northen shaolin and southern shaolin and which one does Lei Fie use? etc. That's just my preference. Martial Arts Fiction/Fantasy immersion thats why I play. IRL I'm a computer scientist and AI researcher I see fucking numbers and math all damn day. The last thing I want is to have crude frame counting arithmetic be the center of my focus.

I started this thread because after playing Leroy in Tekken, I saw so much potential beauty in his design and animations, and just dreamed of what it would all look like if the AM2 was able to put Wing Chun in Virtua Fighter. I would love Wing Chun, and Taichi Chuan styles especially given the VF treatment. But while watching a typical high level Tekken Tournament, where Leroy is facing say Feng Wei., there is no mention about Wing Chun vs Kempo and the possibilities there (of course its all make believe) But Wing Chun vs Kempo would make great Martial Arts Fiction, and in Tekken's case Martial Arts Fantasy. Instead, All I hear is so and so did the Korean back dash, Leroy is OP, down,down, forward P, Oh Oh, Feng Wei dropped his combo. YIKES.

I'm into fighting games for Martial Arts Fiction/Fantasy immersion, the styles, the places, the look, the feel, the katas, the legends, the stories, the heroes, the clash of martial arts titans and the fun of it all. I could give a fuck about Frame advantage or disadvantage and the associated number crunching matched with button pressing sequences.

I'd rather hear snake beats tiger, dragon palm beats buddha fist, round house kick , is better than muay thai knee , eagle fist rises to black dawn, was wing chun really invented by a woman? etc. That way, its all martial arts fun, kung fu fun, martial arts fiction, martial arts fantasy.

All this talk of Frame counting, and button sequences, and Korean Back Dashing, Wake ups, Okemis, Tech rolls, blah, blah, give me a headache.


Dialectics now your talking

Cheers man, its all good., and your constructive criticism is received, no offense taken.

 

For sure, the the martial arts in these games are martial arts fiction, and martial arts fantasy . Absolutely that is the case. But they allude to the real thing. Many time players pick a character because they are inherently interested in some way in the characters quasi-martial arts style that points to something IRL. So commentators pointing out character moves that are based on some kung fu movie, or some real kata, or real fighter, or real move, or real martial art. Is fair game. Talking about moves that although are not real, but plausible would also be cool. And Since you are a martial artist you know that many of the moves in VF are at least a nod to the real thing, there are arm bars, muay thai knees, left hooks, right hooks, side kicks, round house kicks, down strikes, etc, in VF that are legitimate strikes, holds, many of the moves are also taken from famous kung fu movies ( which are also not real ) but fun.

I would rather hear that discussion from the commentators/announcers, than to hear them calling out the button press sequences, frame crunching stuff, who's life bar is at 30%
Anyone watching the matches and that appreciate the high level of play already know everything the commentators/announcers are saying. And those folks that are outside of the loop have no fucking idea what the announcers/commentators are talking about. If you listen to real sports commentators, or fight announcers, they mix it up, they talk about all kinds of things, sometimes they comment specifically about a strike that is in progress, or the fighters strategy, or the gym the fighters trained at, or the beef leading up to the fight, or how styles make fights, etc. They might talk about, Bjj, or Muay Thai, katas, stamina, training regimes, the ring, the purse, all kinds of !@#$.

That would be far more interesting to me personally than having the announcer call out whose pressing which buttons, and who is at disadvantage, and what button presses will get them out I'm not trying to bash commentators and announcers here. Having the move set button presses, and frame data memorized for every characer and being familiar with every matchup takes a lot of work and talent But so does playing tennis with a golf club. With enough effort and talent you can pull it off, but there are just easier and more fun ways to go about it.

Marlay, for some players they're into the e-sports of it all, they just want to compete and good at the game, They could care less about martial arts fiction, or martial arts fantasy that's in the game. I'm just the opposite. I'm into the immersion of it all. Its a game, about martial arts styles facing off against each other. Which style will win and why?
Its my time to play martial arts make believe and get busy with the cool looking KaPow.

As far as Tekken, I own every Tekken game except Tekken 1. I play Tekken 5,6 & 7 from time to time just as a reminder and because I like Lei Wulong's five animal Kung Fu, and Feng Wei's Kempo. I main Lei Wulong, and Feng Wei. I'm experimenting with Leroy Smith (from what I can see from his Wing Chun I like his animations). My favorite Tekken was Tekken 4. My second favorite Tekken was Tekken 6. I have over 20 thousand matches in single player (among the versions), and about 4000 matches online between Tekken 6 and 7. And in my opinion Tekken has 3D movement with a 2D presentation (sparks, explosions, whirlwinds, fireballs, Akuma, Geese, Gigas, meters, spacing, stage design, character design , lighting) all very much 2D-ish and Sprite like.

Its just my opinion. Others clearly feel differently, but from a spectators point of view one can barely tell the difference between Tekken 7 and Street Fighter 5. For some in the FGC that's a good thing, for me its proof positive that Tekken 7 really covets a 2D crown. And is made primarily for the 2D crowd.

I'd be willing to bet that VF has more moves based on real human movement, on real martial arts, and kung fu movie martial arts moves than moves that are completely bogus and not based on anything (notwithstanding Kage). Yes VF has some movement that is totally WTF but those are few. The majority of the moves have some basis in reality either in martial arts flicks, real martial arts, or fictional (but plausible) martial arts. On the other hand Tekken brings a lot of Martial Arts Fantasy. VF brings a lof of Martial Arts Fiction. VF's martial arts are "more plausible" than Tekken's (case in point, Kuma, Panda, Kangeroo, Gigas, Jacks, Akuma, Yoshimitsu, Alisa, Devil Jin, Lucky Chloe, Lily, Kazumi) But hell Tekken 7 has sold over 4 million copies so obviously its doing something right