vf movies

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by AlexMD, Aug 29, 2000.

  1. AlexMD

    AlexMD Well-Known Member Content Manager Lei

    Anybody know if there are any clips floating around on the net of someone using fuzzy block?, mine is pretty sad I think I'm doing it then I get swept or elbowed.Any chance someone could make one if there aren't any ( : ,oh and is it possible to have clips from java tea tourney or anything or would that be illegal?.Hey Chanchai have you mastered fuzzy block yet? I remember prior to the NYG2 you seemed to be developing your skills around the same speed as me judging from your ura posts etc, so did training with the pro's significantly boost your skills or are you still having to work on almost every aspect of your game like me?.
     
  2. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    burp

    don't practice fuzzy block. Practice yomi and
    reaction instead. Fuzzy block = icky.

    at any rate I find it funny. I've only met one person
    who could use it properly. Everyone else trades
    intitiative for its protectiveness. I've seen and
    heard of many a good player who's experimentation with
    it led to their not capitalizing on the sucesses
    generated from it.

    Maybe it's just me (although I don't believe so) but I
    think certain "advanced" techniques should be shelved
    simply because it removes the element of the game.
    To wit: two people trying to outfox, outwit, out guess
    each other's strategies; putting pressure on your opponent,
    defending their rushes based on your knowledge of the game
    and of your opponent, not your ability to move the joystick
    through the smallest points past neutral and back again.

    Don't get me wrong, I know it can be beaten. Rich has
    proven that to me but all the same I think it changes the
    game.

    point: the VF2 descendents will remember the huuuge amount
    of skill that resided in people like Mason Wood, Robertson,
    Yupasawa. this skill wasn't based on tricks but on their
    knowledge of the game and it's mechanics. They devoured their
    opponents on and off the controls.

    When I see people resorting to Fuzzy Guard I always think of
    people using Proxybots to play Quake. What satisfaction could
    be had in winning? Give me skill against skill anyday. Leave
    the tricks for the sideshow.

    GE
     
  3. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    NYG2 was definitely an eye-opener for me. Godeater and Hiro have both made the point lately... Godeater says stick to working on yomi. Hiro mentioned the basics in response to Cause and me (VF Club in MD I think the thread was). For sure, read that post. IMO, it summarizes one of the most VF-profitable lessons I learned at NYG2.

    I enjoyed the tricks and yes, I got used to things like E-GTE and all... but it wasn't really necessary. The tricks should not be ahead of those fundamentals and yomi. Yomi is so important, but that mostly comes from experience. Focusing on the basics at least gives you a good idea of how to handle the situations where yomi is required.

    Of course, I'm not in a good position to really teach anyone anything about VF, but you were curious about my progress/images/icons/smile.gif. Since I am stuck in a wasteland (in consideration of VF), I pretty much have the CPU and hope... Well, the CPU is a sure thing right now... It will develop bad habits though...

    Here are the habits I was aware of against CPU which I did:
    1) I evaded like crazy, this was eventually similar to suicide against people.
    2) I approached situations in a funny way... this is not really all bad, but I recommend you focus on what's mentioned in a lot of faqs because those are built on good experience.
    3) I had really fancy but impractical play (I did too many weird moves and not as effective moves, or moves that were extremely counterable such as Lion's db K).
    4) Well, it isn't all bad, but it's a bad habit since it is weak in the long run, but I became a low kick whore until I went to NYG2.
    5) I was pure offense and no defense (my idea of defense was dashing away or hitting them with a quick hit, but if they take the initiative, this does not work).

    Anyways, of course if the CPU is all you have, it's totally understandable that you will definitely develop bad tendencies. It's all good because you can fix them. By all means, work on some tricks once in awhile if your interest is waning, or just casually... I just don't think it's advisable for it to become the center of your gameplay (uramawari is easily prevented, especially when people know the situations you go for). As for fuzzy-block, no I haven't practiced it at all... It feels like if I had mastered it, it might ruin the way I played or prevented me from really enjoying what I do about VF, not to mention, people might not want to play me.

    Here's how I practice against CPU:

    1) Set it to training mode on Auto (auto is just a little incentive to work on it for a little longer than you normally would, I advice you fight the auto-level CPU until 30 minutes have passed or a little after you get to level 9. Whichever comes first). Get a step-1 guide or a basic faq on your character of choice. For most characters, I think focusing on elbow, low Punch, Throw, some evade (not too much) are good for attacks. In addition to that, the recommended moves to work on the faq or step-1 guide (what character do you play btw?). Now the really important part to work on... The flow of battle... When to defend and when to attack. Most likely if the computer blocks your attack, it's your turn to defend. If you whiff a move, it's your turn to defend. Of course there are exceptions, but focus on that basic concept. Too bad P(G-cancel) tactics don't work all too good on the computer (well, your throw option is almost out the window against the CPU). Anyways, that's my recommendation and what I feel I have learned basically. I learned more about playing practically and yomi than I did about technique at NYG2 and it changed how I played drastically.... Not to mention it built up my love for the game even more. Fortunately, to a good extent you can train against the CPU. Now and then I work on extra techniques, extra details (what's counterable in what way? What throw escapes are good or bad for me?), but these are no longer in the front of my mind at all... pretty far from it. Maybe make sure you can Crouch dash or something. But you don't need to be technique heavy. You don't have to play to win either, and that's not what I'm telling you to have a complete mentality of (though it's not a bad thing either). I just think one will enjoy VF much more when they finally play live opponents with a good foundation on the fundamentals and then work their way towards the other details.
    2) Sort of trust the faqs (well, ones based on tb, and ones based on dc tb definitely) and some old posts.... but focus on what you do have. Faqs will just help you conceptualize some differences between what the CPU does and what people would do. It definitely is different, but at least the fundamentals stay the same. Stylized and fancy play has its strengths against some players and weaknesses against others (and sometimes really strong weaknesses). Playing by the book will at least give you a solid ground against general competition. Key note: WATCH YOURSELF AS WELL AS YOUR OPPONENT.
    3) Keep in mind that there aren't that many "Guaranteed" things (in the literal sense. CPU also has a fast recovery time in situations, however, it also has its scripting which means it will have its tendencies. You'll pick up some things here and there from the CPU and hopefully, when you finally meet Myke, you'll learn a ton (I wouldn't be surprised, besides JunesOne is down there too).
    4) I am not at the level to focus on this much yet... But if you really are stuck by yourself with really nothing to do but VF... and you've been practicing a lot, you can also do your research. I mentioned the faqs, the step guides, some old VF3 faqs. Heck, even VF2 faqs have a lot to contribute towards 3tb (conceptually). You can also research by asking some people in private. People you know will respond to you anyways. If you ask me, I will do my best to find out, but I can't guarantee. It'll be helpful for me as well. Another way is find a good programmable controller and practice situations with a short-time programmed opponent... Stagger situations, post-throw-escape positions, high-chance extra damage. Again though, this is something to do on the side, for fun, and not in place of understanding fundamentals.

    Hope this helps you man. I know it wasn't exactly what you were asking for, but I tought it might be an interesting read. Also, make sure you read some faqs when you are comfortable with P(G), elbow, low Punch, Throw, Evade. Work your way up. Those are more of setup moves as far as I know. For sure, read Hiro's post on that thread I mentioned. It's something that I see written in quite a few old VF3 faqs, but not as much in modern faqs. But it is extremely vital imo. It's not the only way to play or anything, but it's where you grasp more.... You can learn, apply, master, then unlearn and reapply/images/icons/smile.gif

    -Chanchai

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Chanchai on 8/29/00 10:08 PM.</FONT></P>
     
  4. AlexMD

    AlexMD Well-Known Member Content Manager Lei

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    Well I get to play against a human player at least once a week, although he is still a bit of a novice (can't KS crouch dash,low kick or any move MC throw etc) but at least I learn the elbow,throw,cd low punch to set up guessing game etc ( :.I'm going to get a chance to play against Myke on the week of sep 17th so hopefully I'll learn something.I've practised all the variations of the double and triple escape with a friend but I still can't get guard,double escape I heard it was in arcade know if it still exists?.In response to what character I play It was kage up until a week ago but I thought I had learned all I could with him and become a little bored so now I'm trying to learn Pai,Aoi,and Wolf mostly Pai.So who is your character of choice Chanchai? or are you still experimenting with all?.I think my worst habit is crouch dashing into low punch or elbow to often as a savvy opponent would stagger me before I get too close.Also my throw escape percentage isn't as high as it should be as my training partner always does illogical throws (the ones he thinks look good not the high damage throws.Hey Chanchai thanks for the reply regardless of weather or not all the info was related to my question, It is always nice to read your replies as they are so long hehe.Do you know any servers where we could play quake2? I was actually thinking about making a Kage quake model but I don't have the studio max paint add on which is $500 ouch.Anyway better go, I'll check out this Junes one character see if I can find out what state he lives in. ( :
     
  5. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    Hey Doomboy. First of all, I don't think low kick MC throws are guaranteed in VF3tb, I believe it was something that existed in ob (I've witnessed first hand and got annoyed), but I think they tweaked it out in tb.

    I've personally never done G-DTE. GTE sure, E-GTE even more so (because it's easy to practice and has an indicator), but I don't try to use it too much anymore.

    I'm sure you'll learn a lot from Myke if you get to play him. I don't know whether or not he's rusty, but I've heard that his Kage is pretty tough and aggressive. You can probably learn a lot from him, in fact I'm sure of it.

    Well, I taught myself VF3tb with Akira... focused on him for a long time... when I started playing KBCat, I decided to broaden my horizons and play all the characters with some dedicated focus to a few of them. After I went to NYG2, I figured who I wanted to focus on now and pretty much devote my VF time to. My main character is now Lion. I really enjoy playing Jacky and Kage as well. Playing Jacky really helped emphasize using low P, elbow, throws, P(G), double low kicks, some rush tactics, rush-->defense play, making sure certain situations are good before I proceed to attack (such as making sure an elbow hits before throwing the heelkick, was a very good starting point), taking pounce opportunities that were almost guaranteed, elbow-->backfist games, and just overall focus on what seems to me like practical play. Again, I'm no expert nor do I consider myself advanced. Just giving my input. Jacky seems like a strong back-to-basics character for me and if it weren't for focusing on him, it would have taken me a longer amount of time to get a grip on a lot of the advice that was being given to me.

    Crouch dashing into low P can be good./images/icons/smile.gif In fact, imo, it's a very good tactic as long as your followup isn't obvious. I'm sure you know where it applies, but yeah, if you do ANYTHING too much, you're gonna get read like a book. One characteristic of really good, but stylistic players in almost any fighting game is to abuse their own habits or at least create an illusion of a habit to setup their opponents into a trap. However, as in Chess, traps are not always the best idea. But for myself, I made up a little diagram about the line between habit and conditioning... habit is an awful thing... conditioning is a good thing. Habit will sort of breach the definition of when to attack and when not to attack for your opponent--they'll have tell-tale signs of what they should do to defeat you. Conditioning will trick them into breaking their practical play or usual responses so you can get them down in your own territory--your setup. You want to stray from habit which means you want to control your tendencies and only make your sequences look like a habit when they are really just a setup. To many people, this is all obvious. I just recommend that people make sure they fully know and apply the basics before they start being stylistic. The main reason for me thinking this way is that if your stylistic play doesn't really work on some people, you can at least rely on being more practical.

    Hehehe... throw escape percentage... this is only my observation and so it's not in stone, and again, I'm no expert and all so this is only what I have to say. Throw escaping is a good skill, but it's not everything. But it is important. I did resort to your friend's method when I was at NYG2. I would do throws with escape commands that weren't normally used. It was probably the only damage I could do and I didn't do it too often (because then it would be a really bad habit because there are reasons people don't rely on certain throws and it often has to do with position after escaping I think). However, I'd still lose the match. As for escaping, I'm usually only successful when I focus on certain throws and get a feel for when people do them. Keep in mind that most players at NYG2 played for fun with me so a lot of habits could have been part of letting me learn. When playing against Adam's Taka I escaped his HCF+PG quite a few times before the gathering. Of course, this was Adam's "let Chanchai learn" mode/images/icons/smile.gif. Against Nelson around the same time, that was when I did doublt throw escape (because he plays shun). Basically PG, df+PG. Of course this only happened before the gathering when I was very successful with this. Anyways, so why did throw escaping not work so well when I was at the gathering? Well, from my perspective, when people are in kill mode and they are really good at the game, they don't often go for the usual throw opportunities that beginners like myself can comprehend. They do throw quite a few times at those opportunities... but more importantly, and especially Hiro from my memory, they throw you when you least expect it. I'd say I saw the best players at NYG2 being really good at this. Just happens that people were more vocal about Hiro in this regard because he does the Giant Swing commands really fast and out of nowhere when you don't expect to get thrown by it. Okay... so am I going somewhere with this or did I stray off point and lose everyone by now? Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is... I personally think that getting really good at throwing at unexpected times, or at least identifying when it is possible for someone to throw you in an "unusual or uncommon" situation is more important than the Throw Escape techniques themselves. You should be able to understand these situations first. But anyways, at least I figure you can identify the normal throw situations which is really good, basic, foundational knowledge. And that in itself is good. Throw escaping is not the only way to beat a throw, and against really good players, it's not always the best option because it doesn't mean you get an extremely good position after the escape. Especially with the throws they use. Hope this makes sense to you and hope this is good VF reasoning. If anyone would like to comment on it, I'd appreciate it. I guess the point is, the throw escape techniques are not the only way to handle expected throw situations. I'll admit they give a good feeling when done then, that was probably why I was addicted to them. I still focus on them of course, they're a good part of play. However, as some of the NY Crew told me (as far as I can recall), those tricks and techniques are more of an insurance once you've mastered or understood the basics. I hope I got that right. I hope I don't sound like I am criticizing your skill level, Doomboy, I have no idea what skill level you are. I'm just expressing what I'm thinking and that's all it is. Subjective material with no claim of it being fact. Whatever people tell me, I take it or leave it, but I can't say it's a fact either. Just perspectives/images/icons/smile.gif

    BTW, you can email me at vf_chanchai@hotmail.com if you ever want to discuss stuff, I'm sure we'll have some fun VF conversations. I wish you and your friend the best in VF progress and mastery, as many know, I just love the game so I'm just happy to see more VF players/images/icons/smile.gif

    -Chanchai
     
  6. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    Hey Doomboy. First of all, I don't think low kick MC throws are guaranteed in VF3tb, I believe it was something that existed in ob (I've witnessed first hand and got annoyed), but I think they tweaked it out in tb.

    low-kick (MC) > Throw still exists and is guaranteed in TB (not to mention many other ones). Guaranteed throw is especially easy if lowK(MC) gives 1-frame of advantage (such as Wolf's d+K+G)
     
  7. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    The important thing to add on to Shota's comment is that
    the "guarantee" only exists for a player who can take
    advantage of that single frame advantage. In OB it was
    ridiculously easy but in TB it takes skill.

    There are several types of guarantees that operate on
    varying levels of difficulty. Shun's and Kage's
    followups on their exchange throws (df+P+G, f+P+G)
    are guaranteed and much easier to do (IMO) than the
    low kick counter throw which is guaranteed as well.

    GE
     
  8. AlexMD

    AlexMD Well-Known Member Content Manager Lei

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    Why easier if 1 frame adv instead of 2 or whatever the standard MC LK equals?.I've tried repeatedly to do Aoi's lk MC throw but I can't get close enough before opponent recovers I buffer in the forward dash but still I've never got it.Do you think senbon MC throw is easier or harder?,do you guys normally go for throw or just take the adv frames provided by the senbon MC?.Oh yeah I'm hopefully gonna get a chance to play against Myke in a few weeks and the machine we'll be using will probably be OB so during the lk MC throw do you still wait until just after the MC sound ends or did you have to enter commands just as kick hits?.Is there anything else I should know about OB in regards to Kage combo's or Pai,Aoi stuff? ( :
     
  9. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    don't bother with it. it's really not worth the time learning it in tb, and, especially in ob, your game will be much more fun w/o it.
     
  10. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    exactly and anyway, you have to assume the programmers
    changed certain "rules" of gameplay for a reason. I
    used to freak out inside whenever I watched people play
    the game during the OB days. It would all boil down to
    three moves: P(G), elbow, lowkick-throw. ooooo what fun.

    GE
     
  11. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    Addind on to my previous post about Wolf's d+K+G:
    Try:

    lowK(MC) > f+E > P+G

    in a rapid sequence as soon as you hear the MC sound. Stick with 1-command throw for testing; pulling off HC throws indeed requires some skills. Of course, use P+G(or other 1-command throw such as d/f+P+G when interrupting standing opponent, P+K+G(of any desired direction) when interrupting crouching opponent.

    For low-K that gives you 2-frames of advantage, you have to input f+E TWICE which makes this method much more difficult.

    Of course you can rely on your "natural senses" for timing and forget f+E. But it won't be so guaranteed in practice. Above method is at least the mechanical way to make the throw guaranteed.

    For certain characters, low-K(MC) > throw never worked in OB and never will in TB. Aoi is one of those characters.
     
  12. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    i've found that HC throws are easier in some ways, because, for me at least, the amount of time it takes to enter the HC joystick motion coincides with the proper timing for the throw.
     
  13. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    and now it's all Px, (dashing) elbow, and throw. ah, what an improvement. < g >

    it really was a shame in ob, though. the whole while i was devoted to the game i couldn't help but feel there was just one horrible flaw that just killed the game, and that was low kick, throw. wolf is one of the most fascinating characters in vf3, with so many "weapons" that could be used in so many ways, but most players just went the easy way (myself included, when i needed to).
     
  14. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    Re: I learned to work mostly on basics :)

    and now it's all Px, (dashing) elbow, and throw. ah, what an improvement.

    now now, you know that's not completely true. It's just that a
    lot of people tend to play incredibly safe and look for the
    win. I like playing against people who show a healthy mix of
    pure skill and a sense of fun...trying elaborate set ups,
    out of the ordinary Oki....makes for more fun.

    GE

    -by the way..who here uses the "check spelling" option. what
    a piece of kife. Rich's Px becomes pygmalian...
     

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