VF Preference poll

I think I've been clear about my position but I'm more than willing to clarify a bit.

I haven't said anything that wasn't purely reflective of my own tastes and experience. VF1 started the flame, VF2 fanned it too a blaze, VF3/TB was little (comparatively speaking) more than a smoldering coal, VF4 is that same coal with some fresh fuel. For me.

don't get hung up on individual words. Check out the whole sentence. I was cautious enough to include proof in quotes. When I decided that VF3 was lacking internal energy it was around the same time that practically all of the major names I was used to were dropping the scene and this seemed to validate my feelings. VF3--it seemed to me--was riding a wave started by its precursers and when the momentum of that wave dried up....well.

At no point did I say that people were "resorting" to VF2. Quite frankly, there was no regression. The scene appeared to simply die out (And those that stayed, well we always found ourselves at the off color VF1 machine or the bookended VF2.0 and 2.1 machines. we kept coming back).

What I did say, however, was that if there does appear to be a strong following behind VF2 perhaps there is an underlying reason. one that sits apart from any attempt to be fashionable or wallow in nostalgia.

GE

 

I think most people infatuation with vf2 over 3 is the fact that we ALL played 3 for like what, 5+ years? I don't care HOW well a game is made, thats just a loong friggen time to play something with little to no change...

 

To pick up on where Phil left off, and it may be unnecessary, but I'll throw in another two cents anyway:

- How is VF3 a copy of VF2? Again, VF3 has a completely different system with totally different design principles.

- "What I did say, however, was that if there does appear to be a strong following behind VF2 perhaps there is an underlying reason. one that sits apart from any attempt to be fashionable or wallow in nostalgia." First, Japan had a very strong following throughout VF3's life, and in most other parts of the world, VF3 had a solid following in the first three years of its life. Second, many other games had strong followings that you perhaps don't respect as much as VF...Tekken, Super Smash Brothers, Pokemon, all the SF incarnations, etc. (c'mon one of these you must not like). On the same token, I never said nostalgia and bandwagonism were the only reasons people preferred VF2 over all other VFs; I stated that a whole lot of people in the media and in most Internet forums choose VF2 rather arbitrarily without really knowing anything.

- VF2 balance is a whole thread to itself...I believe we had a big discussion about it a while back, too lazy to search for it.

Anyway, "preference" is really impossible to argue. Whether or not VF2 starts a fire for someone probably depends on whether that person likes VF2's OS type of gameplay.


Also, in reference to an earlier reply:

I think there is an inherent problem in basing part of your argument in "out dated graphics".

This one was mainly for the graphic whores...of which I am one myself, though I think VF2 looks great. Obviously, everyone has different standards, but speaking personally, for example, I could not bear to play FF9 because its PSX graphics were bad enough to significantly impact my experience with the game. I'm sure the same idea could apply at some level to other people who have such high standards that VF2's graphics would bother them.

No 3d movement. well, SF is still doing fine based on that premise and it is not exactly true. Two characters have access to dodging.

And that is why I prefer VF over SF. Further, I said "systematic 3D movement," i.e. some sort of universal dodging system.

 

to be perfectly honest, Jeff, I have no idea what your 2 cents add up to.

I never said VF3 was a copy of VF2. ever. I may have done my initial post a disservice by ill chosen words but the text doesn't bear out your interpretation of my stating VF3 was a copy of VF2.


First, Japan had a very strong following throughout VF3's life, and in most other parts of the world, VF3 had a solid following in the first three years of its life. Second, many other games had strong followings that you perhaps don't respect as much as VF...Tekken, Super Smash Brothers, Pokemon, all the SF incarnations, etc

I don't see how this relates. I said that if there's a following of VF2 there is likely a reason. I don't understand how Japan figures in here so if you could elaborate I would appreciate it. what does my respect have to do with the other games you listed. People really dig those dance games but I just never get on them, how does it agree or refute what I have said?

also, you need to qualify this statement: I stated that a whole lot of people in the media and in most Internet forums choose VF2 rather arbitrarily without really knowing anything. How do you know this?

GE

 

Heh, I think I was being clear, but I will try to further clarify:

For the copy thing - I may have misinterpreted you, but first you stated "VF2 was a brilliant game. The rest of them try to recapture that brilliance and succeed in varying degrees but none have ever been able to recreate amazing thing that VF2 was" which sounds like you're suggesting that VF3 was merely attempting to emulate VF2. And then you state: "If there is a platonic VF form then VF3 was the copy of a copy of a copy. Diffused and dilluted until little was left."

For the "it's popular then there must be a reason thing," you imply that VF2 has a following which VF3 did not have, but this relates primarily to the U.S., not Japan. Thus my "VF3 had a following in Japan" statement. Perhaps that "reason" you allude to is somehow geography-specific; that is what I was suggesting.

For the "respect" issue, basically, this again relates to the idea that VF2 had a following there must a reason statement. This is a corollary to Phil's "popularity != quality" argument. There are a lot of franchises that are really popular and have strong followings, but I am sure that at least for some of them you can agree is not due to "quality." So let's say you thought Smash Brothers is not a good game (I don't know what you actually think about Smash Brothers). SSB has a strong following, and there must be a reason for it right? Well, if you didn't think highly of it, then to you at least it's not because of some inherent "quality" but due to something else. Thus, the connection is, just because VF2 had a bigger following than VF3 (or even that it had a following at all), it may not be because of some inherent "quality." I'm generalizing here, but surely what I'm saying is straightforward.

also, you need to qualify this statement: "I stated that a whole lot of people in the media and in most Internet forums choose VF2 rather arbitrarily without really knowing anything." How do you know this?

Errr, obviously my statement is anecdotal (how could it not be?!) but if you have read any magazine's preview of VF4 or lurk on any typical gaming forum it should be relatively apparent. "VF2 is better than VF3" is a very fashionable thing to say, or at least imply.

Oh, I should qualify that the VF2 preference thing is usually in absence of VF4 as VF4 is still a new game for most folks, and that my observations are based from English-speaking media/forums.


ADDENDUM:

This shouldn't needn't be said, but just in case, I love VF2. That was really the game that got me into the arcades (SF2 the one getting me into fighting games). What I'm trying to do here is play devil's advocate by challenging the mainstream accepted notion that VF2 is "better" than VF3.

And of course, for those folks that have read some of my past posts, they would realize that even the concept of "better" is one that I think is difficult to define and structure, to the point where I almost never try.

I guess, the crux of what I'm trying to say is...to me (and to the designers' minds, I think), VF4 and VF3 are meant to be a step forward from VF2. In terms of the 3D aspect, throw system, standardization of controls, etc. And most importantly, in terms of the essence of the OS type of gameplay in VF2 that was left behind.

Now, when one speaks of the "fire" and "soul" of a game...I don't know how to argue against that, and it seems like a difficult concept to concretize. Ultimately, isn't the "soul" of a game just another way of expressing a player's preferences?

 

I hope this point hasn't been brought up... cuz i am too lazy to read all the lengthy post up front.

Maybe.. just maybe the mentality of vf2 vs vf3 is close to the old first sf2 installment vs all the rest sf2 spin offs?

I've been to one california SF gathering...where supposely the best sfers of the CA (some may argue the best in US) get together for a couple days at tragic's place. There are a group of people also prefer to play the original sf2 that they actually brought a supergun setup and have quite a blast. (This was the time around SF alpha 3 ...iirc).

I think the mentality is that vf2 is such a groundbreaking improvement over vf1 and all the other conventional 2d games, that people who played vf2 were just thrilled by it. Just like sf2 made a historical change in gaming (kinda introduced the fighting game genre) that the sf fans forever remember the original sf2 being the "best". Now vf3, or vf4 are imo also great games, but they didn't have the luxory of making groundbreaking improvements that vf2 had. Afterall, vf2 is so revolutionary that few (game designers) can think of (or dare to financially) to revolutionize it in the next sequel. I think we need to give Yu Suzuki some credits here for actually daring to change vf3 to a certain degree, unlike all 10+ capcom sequels that all feel and play pretty much the same. I think the point i am trying to make is that vf2 has gained so much ground that it is nearly impossible that vf3 could make the vf2ers feel as excited as they were to vf2.

As for the big name players quiting vf3... well, it happens to all games and at all places, especially for vf since NAmerica vfers (that i've met) are mostly older (like atleast 20+). Let's just say there are few teens in the mix. When people are at this transition sometimes there are just simply more important things to do than devotions to games. Some of the vfers i've met have married, most are working, busy chasing girls (^^, or are studying in college/graduate school. For this group of people in general, concentrated devotions to even just one single game for years is quite an accomplishment (i think). For those who were playing hardcorely since vf2(or even vf1), it is only natural for them to stop (or pause) for awhile at vf3 given the situation. Even in Japan famous players seem to come and go (except the few that are actually making a living out of it ^^; ), as far as i know the vf2 tetsujins such as shinjuku, ikebukuro, and kashiwa (kashiwa being the latest...i think)all have left the vf3 scene relatively early during its 4 year spans; bunbun stopped playing competitively (prolly only stayed becuz it is his job). Does it mean that vf3 attracts less players than vf2? of course not, there are new blood keep on joing into the pool, i am sure shota can name quite a few good players that started and became famous in vf3. Just like any sports, there are generations of "players", except that in sports most people quit becuz of their age, where in videogames players quit becuz it is time to move on with their life.

(note: there are actually some famous vf2 players that continue till even today, for the ones i know of: the use to be teen (still is?) chibita and korean akirakid/shinz(who is prolly also less than 20 yrs old))

 

I think you hit on a great point - time moves on, and some people simply loose interest in playing video games, or at least on the same level.

 

/me glances at GE with a dumbfounded expression.... .. .and then rolls his eyes so far back into his head he can see what he's thinking

another one for the ice-9 hall of insanity.

 

Lose interest? In playing video games? *blink blink* Whaaaaa?

 

I'm through after this last.

Of course I'm stating preference. That is what the thread is about. VF Preference Poll. Which do you like? Is anything easier to grasp? I only came on here to post because you were invalidating people's choices by saying that their decision was ill-founded or arbitrary, something that you later on said was "anecdotal"; a statement based entriely on observation with no grounding in fact.

and for the record, I never implied anything. you infered a heck of a lot. I never said that VF3 didn't have a following, I said that most of the people I respected stopped playing. Every sentence I used has included non-foggy statements like, "i think", "it seemed to me", "for me".

For me it all comes down to this one sentence: "VF2 has--at this point--captured 33% of the vote, maybe instead of discounting the numbers by saying the voters are ignorant ("few really knew any one of the franchise well enough to make a well-supported reason why one is "better" than the other") it is time to consider that there may be something more substantial happening in the decision making process.

GE

 

It wasn't until VF4 came out that I understood how soul-less playing VF3 was. I mean I enjoyed playing VF3 quite a bit and got better at it than I was at VF2, but playing VF4 reminded me of all the pure fun I had playing VF2 with friends in the arcade and even on the Saturn. A pure fun that was somewhat lacking in all the times I played VF3.

Now does that mean that if I were to go to an arcade with some old friends and found that they had both a VF2 and a VF3 that I would play VF2 more than I would VF3? Maybe, maybe not. I'm better at VF3 than I am at VF2 and the adjusting back to VF2 would probably take more than a few games to get back into the groove of things. So if I were playing only a handful of games for one evening I think I would probably end up playing VF3 maybe 67% of the time and VF2 the rest.

But if I were stuck on that proverbial desert island with those same friends? I'd rather have VF2.

It is with these thoughts in mind, I have to say my preferences go 4 then 2, then a tie between 3 and 1. Well, to break the tie, I think I had more fun with 1 than 3... for all its flaws 1 was a ton of fun, and I still play it every time I see it in the arcade.

-Jason

 

It seems like we are going in circles. You probably think I'm not reading your posts carefully enough, and I definitely think you are misreading mine.

VF2 has--at this point--captured 33% of the vote, maybe instead of discounting the numbers by saying the voters are ignorant...it is time to consider that there may be something more substantial happening in the decision making process.

This is what most of my posts have attempted to address.

Also, I must take exception to this statement as an example of my being misinterpreted:

I only came on here to post because you were invalidating people's choices by saying that their decision was ill-founded or arbitrary, something that you later on said was "anecdotal"; a statement based entriely on observation with no grounding in fact.

That's all. I too, think too much time has been put into this thread, heh heh.

 

What in vf3 did you find soul-less?

 

I think he means 'what he' found soul less in VF3 and not general.

 

What do Florida VFers think?! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

damn game was in the arcade but didnt play it much.........forget what i was playing tho..........need to get it on dc.........