VF3 -> VF4, which characters improved?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ice-9, Dec 7, 2001.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Here's my first stab:

    Akira - Better. SDE -> KD says it all.

    Pai - Marginally better, but not much it seems like.

    Lau - Better. Easier to use, has good new moves, and float combos seem easier to come by.

    Wolf - Marginally better. His damage potential has gone down but is compensated for his increased variety in moves.

    Jeffry - Better. In the hands of a top player, Jeffry didn't improve that much, but he is easier to win with for good average players (like myself).

    Kage - Marginally worse. Lost a lot of R.O. potential and damage, partly compensated by his increased variety of moves. However, the reality is a lot of his new/improved moves--while good--won't win matches in high level competition. In VF3tb, his TFT, elbow, PPP, and heel kick will.

    Sarah - Much better. Improved in nearly every way.

    Jacky - Better, crazy as that sounds. Thanks to SS, DA, and BKC.

    Shun - SEEMS better, but I can't be sure. Need to spend more time with the old man.

    Lion - Seems better, but again, I need to play him more.

    Aoi - Marginally better. Her b,d/f+P saved her cute ass. YY is great too.
     
  2. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    I agree for the most part...

    Lau is pretty much the same as VF3, but I've also not seen him played at a high level yet in VF4.

    Kage is the only one that I'd say is worse off in VF4. Once opponents learn how to block and punish the new attacks he's going to be hurting... heel kick is much weaker without any guaranteed ground hit follow ups like the sweep. TFT combos can be tech rolled out of so if Kage messes up he's potentially in very big trouble... he would be slightly better off if he could enter jumonji stance quicker.
     
  3. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    While Sarah has been beefed up, she's got a new problem now: it feels like 80% of her moves are reversed mid, including rising knees, kickflips and all her float starters except KP, chop-kick and the full spin dive. And, of course, she's even weaker because she doesn't get free pounces off anything she couldn't do more damage simply comboing. At least she's got a useful shin slicer now :)
     
  4. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    she's even weaker because she doesn't get free pounces off anything she couldn't do more damage simply comboing. At least she's got a useful shin slicer now :)

    <hr></blockquote>

    You're kidding right?

    Sarah Bryant is <font color=orange>Three</font color=orange> times the character she was in VF3. So she lost her Elbow Spin>Edge Kick combo but I have one word for you mate. <font color=blue>F L A M I N G O</font color=blue> . The amount of things she can do in it and from it are extrodinary, Hit throws, Inashi and the mother of all throws <font color=blue>E V E R</font color=blue> . The <font color=red>Kick Tornado</font color=red> . The Ultimate crowd puller and bitch slap all rolled into one.

    Makng the Kickflip countered as a mid kick was something I didn't like at all but heck, I hardly used it anyway outside of a float.

    There are so many games you can play with Sarah now that her Catch throw has been sorted out, that she has <font color=blue>Four</font color=blue> ways to enter the Flamingo with one of them being a High and Mid <font color=blue>Sabaki</font color=blue> .

    Got a <font color=green>Turtle?</font color=green> No problem, just charge a <font color=red>Crash Tornado</font color=red> and smash their face in, if they block, get a <font color=red>Free throw!</font color=red> You can't loose!

    You can actually beat someone from the Flamingo alone. it has every type of kick from a Dodge kick, Sweep, Two types of Heel Sword, Guard break and a faster, higher priority (though slightly weaker) Kickflip (VF2 style). Not only that but it possess a backflip for quick escapes and a Moonsault that will <font color=blue>KEEP</font color=blue> you in the stance so you could in theory jump over someone and <font color=red>Kick Tornado</font color=red> them in the back of the head!

    You can even do punch variants out of it with absolutley <font color=orange>NO recovery time what so ever</font color=orange> or, better still, do an infinate chop-kick FL: chop-kick!!!

    KP. That's not a float. <font color=red>Dragon Cannon</font color=red> is a real float! It's quick, easy has high priority and has very little recovery. The only reason you shouldn't dismiss the knee is because it lets you do a punch variant from anywhere while the <font color=red>Dragon Cannon</font color=red> only allows it near a wall.

    Yes, 80% of Sarah's moves hit Mid but it's a pro as well as a con as she can't miss her opponent. no ducking under or jumping over, you have to block (read the <font color=green>Turtle</font color=green> [/b] bit above), dodge (easier said than done in VF4) or counter, which is a problem for all characters.

    She has one key high move in the form of the Chop. That move has to have some of the highest priority ever as it can beat most punches to the crunch. Press kick, and follow through with a guaranteed hit that puts you into the... <font color=blue>Flamingo</font color=blue> and there you go.

    By far and above Sarah is the most improved character in VF4. She has retained most of her basic tennants while gained a whole new lease of life. Combined with the improved combo system that enhances her type of play.
     
  5. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Hey Jeff...

    For the most part, I agree with what you're saying (posting). But there are a few things I question:

    Shun - SEEMS better, but I can't be sure. Need to spend more time with the old man.

    I think he's better because of his variety of stances. And his combos seem a little easier to pull off. His floaters (chouwan and mule kick) are hard to counter and have decent prioity. But in some areas he's worse than in VF3. It's bad enough (or good-depending on who you are) that there are moves that can make him sober, but now he can sober himself by falling on his back. His backflip is gone, as far as we know. He can't switch from sitting to lying down, as far as I know, which opens up more possibilities than K or d+K. If I'm wrong anywhere, I apologize, because I'm still learning him.

    Lion - Seems better, but again, I need to play him more.

    Yeah, he's better. His sabaki is criminal. His b+P+K, f, f+P, and b, df+P are lethal if they hit, because they lead to combos. His ground game is almost unfair, because now he can do three ground hits. Like D, f+P+G-> b, f+K-> d+K-> pounce. Again, if I'm wrong on anything, I'm sorry.

    Aoi - Marginally better. Her b,d/f+P saved her cute ass. YY is great too.

    Yeah, and her hit throws ain't too shabby, either.

    I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking, but a few more sentences on how each character is different would be nice. I see that you put a few into Kage. I wonder why...(just kidding).
     
  6. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    -->His ground game is almost unfair, because now he can do three ground hits. Like D, f+P+G-> b, f+K-> d+K-> pounce. Again, if I'm wrong on anything, I'm sorry. <--

    I would almost agree with there. His ground game is strong, but once you get used to tech-rolling the b,f+K, his big damage ground game from the *f+P+G all but vanishes. Our local Lion player used to use that combo all the time, until we started teching after the first ground hit and punishing him. Now he just takes his guaranteed f,f+K,K (which still isn't bad). The bad part is that if you don't tech the f,f+K,K, he can do it again, which is a much safer option to get him back to higher damage.
     
  7. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    *f+P+G

    OK, that's about the second time I've seen that today! Is *f+P+G supposed to mean "modified"? Or does it mean crouch?
     
  8. Big Dipper

    Big Dipper Well-Known Member

    GhostDog, Nutlog, do you mean b,f+K+G d+K ? after the throw ( FC_f+P+G)? half moon kick with a slide that will kick foot of downed opponent?
     
  9. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    It means from crouch like Aoi's from crouch throw would be *f+p+g
     
  10. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    To follow up with what I said before. Sarah is guaranteed a pounce from the Spin Heel Sword and the Spin Edge Kick.
     
  11. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    I would almost agree with there. His ground game is strong, but once you get used to tech-rolling the b,f+K, his big damage ground game from the *f+P+G all but vanishes.

    True his big damage ground game is gone--but, you open yourself up to the tech game which can be just as if not more rewarding to a skilled lion. He has a few situations where he can hit you out of your tech and leave you with your back turned, such as f,f+P-f,f+KK (tech).


    cheers,
    kbcat
     
  12. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Yupa:

    If there was one thing I would like to really change about Kage, it'd be that he if could cancel out of Jumonji faster. Right now, P+K, revolutions, and G are the only ways, and none of them except P+K are really any good.

    ghostDog:

    I've only played Shun once, but it does seem like managing DPs would be the key for the old man. He takes an extraodinary amount of life when drunk! I think in the long run the fact that he can lose DPs from falling down wouldn't make that much difference for the expert player..should be able to work around it.

    Watching Chibita's Lion, Lion looks scary. But again, haven't played a really good Lion yet, so maybe my Kage can destroy Chibita, heh heh.

    As for how each character is different, I did say a few things about everyone.

    Adio:

    Completely agree with you. Having more middle attackis is NOT a bad thing!!
     
  13. UnCauzi

    UnCauzi Well-Known Member

    Shun improved definately, it's all about maintaining drunken points the damage and "guaranteed stuff" has really added to his game. However I do miss things that my choawan used to hit do to the uncounterable nature of a good amount of moves but I digress.

    As far as his stances go I think they add something to his game but not that much he switches very slowly between stances. Maybe I'm noticing this because I play against mainly Lau/Lion players here.
     
  14. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    The thing that I really miss about Shun is the guaranteed back throw after SE and blindfighting stuff. Every other aspect of his game has been improved besides that. He has much better priority than he used to he does more damage sober etc.
     
  15. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Sarah's shin slicer is more powerful for starting combos now, but be wary of opponents that can low throw. Sarah (and I'm assuming Jacky too) can be thrown even after it hits.

    Re: reversing mid vs. Sarah.

    Yeah... sucks. I've been leaning towards the flamingo stance starting kicks lately, but I can confirm that b+K is also reversed mid. Can anyone comment on the P+K or b+P+K. I'm guessing they're also reversed mid, but maybe the P+K cannot be reversed because of its sabaki properties...

    Sarah is much better off than the weak ass shit she had in VF3tb though... lunging and rising knee are much better and useful now IMO, and the uf+P+G catch throw is infinately more forgiving.
     
  16. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Hehe, I deserved THAT one. :) She IS much better, but some of her VF3 stuff actually got weaker. And she's always had a sweet midlevel arsenal (elbow-knee and crescent attracted me to her in the first place), it was just harder to reverse before.
     
  17. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Akira - Better, although I'd say that SDE ---> DLC was always possible, it just seems more braindead thanks to the KD animation. It's the uncounterability of the SDE (among others) that sucks. But he lost the high damage from ST, SJK, deep bodycheck... basically a 50% throw that was tough to avoid and now isn't so bad since the SJK doesn't give a monster float.

    Kage: way worse, slower punch, slower elbow, lost easy f,f+K and running slide damage in combos, lower damage in TFT floats... his only arguably decent gain was d/f+P for a free float combo, and even that's slow and unwieldy.

    Wolf: Not much different it sounds like. He's still knee/SS/throw. The twirl does less damage and is not instant, but has all that range.

    Jeff: Better, nothing looks toned down and a few things were improved (like the hell stab of doom)

    Jacky: I guess it depends on whether we're discussing VF3 OB or TB. In OB he was hellish. In TB the loss of the cheesy double low kicks leaves him only mildly hellish. He looks like his TB self in VF4 but maybe a little weaker because of the supposed uselessness of his kickflip (can you QR and punish him in any situation?).

    Sarah: Better, how could she not be? She was pathetic before. Now she at least gets flamingo combos and nothing appears to have been made worse. I used to have the most trouble with b+P+G, pounce, but in OB it's supposed to be easy to avoid so the loss of that isn't a big deal.

    Lion: Better. Again nothing was lost, quite a few KD combos gained.
    Shun: Can't comment. Looks identical, but with more moves, which I suppose makes him better.

    Pai: No knockdown from sidekick makes her seem worse, but that could be wrong. It depends on whether sidekick MC ---> crouch dash throw is guaranteed. Loss of the d/b+K+G knockdown sucks. Loss of the D, f+P+G, throw's ground punch sucks. The rest is pretty standard pai. She gets a KD from b+P, wooo. She has a K,P,K combo.. wheeee... I'd guess slightly worse.

    Lau: b,b+P, d+PPPsweep is apparently not as reliable? It seemed to float lower, but does it not hit every single time? I've heard that the b,b+P is uncounterable now. I'd go with lau being slightly better on the strength of the free combos stemming from b,f+P. ST, b,f+P, dnknPPsweep is a pretty strong throw. He really hasn't changed much at all. It's like Sega goes out of their way to make him the most boring character. When everyone else gets a stance, an inashi, a reversal, a sabaki, or a handful of useful new moves... lau gets nothing. He gets his d/b+P elbow back. Maybe it's tremendously useful.

    Aoi: Better, easily. The double stop leading to free combos, that D/F+P leading to a hit throw, most of her moves were improved from semi worthless to semi useful. Her only loss is apparently D, f+P+G, ground throw. This may be made up for by low throw ---> ground throw.
     
  18. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Someone discovered the magic of <font color=red>c</font color=red><font color=orange>o</font color=orange><font color=yellow>l</font color=yellow><font color=green>o</font color=green><font color=blue>r</font color=blue> codes.
     
  19. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    Yeah. I make Harry Potter look like some two bit Vegas <font color=purple>C</font color=purple><font color=green>l</font color=green><font color=orange>o</font color=orange><font color=blue>w</font color=blue><font color=red>n</font color=red>.

    You don't sound very enthusiastic about any of the characters. Isn't there something that really made you go "Wow, I'm really glad they added that"?
     
  20. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    "When everyone else gets a stance, an inashi, a reversal, a sabaki, or a handful of useful new moves... lau gets nothing. He gets his d/b+P elbow back. Maybe it's tremendously useful."

    Not really. Although Lau only got a few new moves in VF4, most of them are really useful.

    1. b+p, k
    Crushes low punch, high priority Vs elbows, non-counterable.

    2. b+p+k, p
    First attack(b+p+k) floats on MC, second attack(p) KDs on MC.

    3. f+p+k
    Avoids high attacks and some mids, KDs on MC, counterable?

    Lau is definintely as strong as he was in VF3, if not slightly stronger.
     

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