VF3 -> VF4, which characters improved?

I didn't say he was weak, I said he was boring

Lau got like... three new moves. That's not what I expect to see for a new character in a fighting game, unless it's a namco game or something. In VF2 to VF3 he lost a move and got the palm (and elbow palm, sidekick-P-palm), the shrieking knife (d/f+P+K), the b,b+P(and followups), one or two new throws, b,b+K+G, the super crescent... it's not a lot for a VF game, but it's a decent upgrade.

 

1. b+p, k
Crushes low punch, high priority Vs elbows, non-counterable.

Throw counterable.

2. b+p+k, p
First attack(b+p+k) floats on MC, second attack(p) KDs on MC.

Definitely a good move in Lau's arsenal. But it's also throw counterable if you block both.

3. f+p+k
Avoids high attacks and some mids, KDs on MC, counterable?

Also throw counterable.

 

Seeing that I'm still a the stage of not taking the game seriously...I can only address a few minor points

A) To say Jacky's kickflip is weak is either wrong or extremely correct

Reasons being
1) If Mc, the kickflip indeed takes off heaps of HP
2) A normal Kickflip does pretty normal n reasonably fair damage

Now...there weirdest thing abt the kickflip..n one which I totally DO NOT understand the rational beind it is....

Scenario 1

Aoi advances n tries to low p Jacky....
Jacky does kickflip(no MC)...Aoi recieves 50 points of damage...Jacky players screams ' YAY'!

Scenario 2
Aoi advances towards Jacky...tries to low p..Jacky uses kickflip..hits Aoi (no MC)...Aoi recieves 20 points damage...Jacky player screams ' Diu Lei lo mo Ham Gar ling'!!!!!!!

Weak or strong?
More like inconsistent

Like Alucard has mentioned in the past, His Iai kick is indeed a powerful combo tool...lotsa diff variables

Plus..I HAVE PROOF Iai kick is no bug...CPU Jacky did a Iai kick, Knee, beatknuckle--->kick...PHAT!

 

Nobody got problem with Jeff and Wolf's ground pick up, huh? Maybe its just me. I'm in withdrawal..

 

Kickflip only does half damage against crouchers. You never saw this in tb (mids actually did more damage against crouchers), but it's back in vf1/2/2.1/3ob and now 4.

 

Concerning Shun, if some of his falling attack connect, he won't lose 1DP.

 

Muahaha..
we both forgot abt crouching vs crouching(guard)
hehe

 

Uhh...yeah. Durh. Lemme rephrase: if it's like the other games, kickflips (and I'd guess most mid moves) only do half damage against defending crouchers. Against crouching non-defenders it will do full damage. This is how it was in VF1/2/3ob, but in tb defending crouchers get no mercy, and non-defending crouchers will even take more damage (ob actually had this last feature, too).

 

really?????? hmmm well i think shun loses a drink point if he falls down connecting hits or not.

 

Hey Creed,

Akira's: SDE MKD -> DLC, I argue that it's far better than it was in VF3. First, and I may be wrong about this, I don't even think you need a major counter (i.e. maximum counter) to get the KD. Second, in VF3, you at least have to be on your toes and somewhat skilled to pull off SDE MC -> DLC consistently. Third, in VF4 you have DJK, Fujin, or bodycheck. Finally, in VF4, you can still DLC if the SDE floats (i.e. interrupts opponent in the air or something like that).

Kage: In another thread, you wrote that "Kage's gone from a two trick pony to a zero trick dead cow." I would make a different characterization...In VF3, he was a pony with two incredibly powerful tricks (well more like a four trick pony). But in VF4, I would say he's more like a shifting chameleon with lots of tricks but none which are all that powerful. This is why VF3 Kage players complain, and why non-VF3-Kage players are non-plussed when they try the ninja out and think of him as pretty decent.

Wolf: I don't think he's as much a knee/throw type of character any more. First, it's easier to escape throws. Second, he's more dependent on his catch throws for situations where command input is critical. This is why AM2 made his b+P so good.

Jacky: Who plays Jacky intending to use his kickflip!? (VF2 aside).

Pai: b+P -- this is practically what Andy was asking for in a fast mid that floated, except with b+P you get the MKD. Her sabaki is great, and while her stance stuff won't win her matches, they have some utility.

Lau: I'm with alucard on his new moves 100%. They are incredibly useful. Sure, as Feixaq pointed out, they're throw counterable, but b+P,K and b+P+K, P consist of two hits and you can always cancel the second one to keep opponents guessing. Both can float. As for f+P+K, I think it being throw counterable is more than fair, given it's MKD-ability. Shrm is throw counterable, and I don't see anyone thinking it's a lousy move. Lau's kick attacks have some subtle but significant property changes, but other than that, in terms of actual moves, I agree Lau changed the least from VF3.

 

re: SDE DLC - I'll concede that's it's more of a no brainer than before, i.e. no consideration of distance or timing needs, but it's still the same as it was in VF3 or maybe weaker... VF4 DLC does puny damage. Also I'm pretty sure you need a major counter for it to KD. I think minor counter floats enough for a DLC and no counter knocks down with a very low float.

Kage: Eh, he's raped. I mean jumonji stance is neat, but for practical purposes, in tournament footage I see kage getting big damage from TFT combos (and it's not as big as it once was) and d/f+P combos. That's it unless you count the almost canned u/f+K+G, low punch, DP combo. No other tricks, no other MC hits into slide, no other knockdowns into f,f+K... only those 2 moves get kage the 40% he needs per correct guess. I wouldn't say he's a multi trick pony because by trick I don't mean effective bait or strategem or flowchart, trick = strong, damaging move/throw/combo. You can call jacky's P-sidekick (blocked), shin slicer MC a reliable trick, but it's still only 15% or so.

Wolf: I'd only be guessing, but I bet wolf is at his most effective in VF4 using nothing but knee/short shoulder or throw, with the occasional low punch, high punch, and b+P. I'd go with wolf being weaker due to the serious reduction of twirl damage and the lower ss floats. If you can make up for these with b+P, he might at best be equal to his VF3 counterpart.

Jacky: his kickflip damage is back up there, but apparently people can QR and punish it every time. He's weaker from OB though, certainly. Double low kick was an eeeevil low attack. He may be ok compared to his TB version, but he's missing EK-pounce.

Are we talking the same b+P?? b+P is the slow midlevel belt stab. Looks like she's begging for change. That move's slooooow and unsafe. D, f+P is maybe her closest equivalent to an upknife.


Lau: I played him VF3 style and I can't agree or disagree, I didn't think to try the new moves. Lau is most likely improved if the worst that happened to him is the loss of b,b+P, d+PPPsweep as a guaranteed, no counter needed combo.

 

Hehehe...me :-D
Well, I have bad move tunnel vision...I get pretty intent...BUt I will go out (all versions) to kickflip <G>

 

Regarding Jacky's kickflip (ahhhh, it's so nice I can finally tell the diffs between flipkick n kickflip hehehe)

Granted, opponents can indeed QR/TR after eating the kickflip...but it is not punishable everytime...till date, I only got punished twice

1st time occured when I kickflip wolf, sends him crashing to the wall think ' yeah baby, big damage baby!'...Wolf recovers, walks towards n GS me while Jacky is still buzy scratching his nose

2nd time occured in the exact same condition as describe above.

it seems that as long as the kickflip sends them far away, ORing or TRing opponents cannot immediately do any harm to Jacky, unless u kickflip them near a wall n end up as I mentioned above.

otherwise, it's still kinda safe...just dun expect big damage anymore~

 

Kage: Eh, he's raped.

Hmm. When I started playing VF4test Kage in August, I thought he was weakened by the slow bbK+G and f+P. But the fast db+k and df+P+K were great tools to use to force a guessing game on a rising opponent, and I could TFT Knee PPb+P d+P+KK.

When VF4 ver.B came around 1½ months ago, I really hated Kage because I could no longer do that TFT combo against mids, and db+K was trashed, and df+P+K was taken out. Kept losing with Kage, and eventually I moved to Lei Fei as a primary character.

Over the past two weeks, though, I've been playing Kage a little bit more and am starting to like him again. He definitely can't be played VF3 PETE style; he needs to be played as a tricky character, and at medium distance more than close up all the time. Sure, he has an offensive disadvantage vis-a-vis Lei or Akira or Sarah or Jacky, but I'm forcing myself to play more intelligently and defensively as a result (which I think is a good thing). PPb+P, b+K sabaki, ff+K (G) and Jumonji P+K sabaki are good moves too.

I just downloaded a Akira vs Kage clip from Daioh.com (might be Kyasao in action, but I'm not sure), and it's really impressive what Kyasao does with Kage... it's no longer available at Daioh, but I managed to mirror at. Go check it out!