VF4 Arcadia notes

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Myke, Oct 8, 2001.

  1. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    If you're just interested in the info, skip down to <font color=yellow>ARCADIA NOTES</font color=yellow>

    Well, it's been a big night and I've got quite a few things to report. The night started with a call from a friend to inform me that both sticks had been fixed. 30 minutes later and I was in the arcade (around 7pm), making my way through a croud of 8 or so onlookers around the VF4 machine, and there were around 5 people playing including myself. I didn't really have a chance to continue with controlled experiments because of the non-stop challenging, but I didn't mind as I got to test a lot of little Jumonji stance setups during battle. My blocked elbow - JS - auto Punch reversal worked so many times! We were getting hungry at around 9pm, and the remaining players decided to stop challenging. I had a streak going at the time (with Kage, who else?), so I just played through to Dural, which everyone (myself included) loved seeing. After that we went for dinner.

    When we got back, I saw two guys playing VF4 that I hadn't seen since VF3tb was in our arcades (read: a fucking long time ago). For those who've read my Sydney Java Tea report, it was TG and his friend. Nice to see old faces again and we had some great matches. There were a couple of other guys there too, so we had a total of 6 or so people playing. Towards the end, when most had left (roughly 10:30pm) we decided to let this guy play the CPU, since it was his first time playing VF4, though he was familiar with 3. He got to Jacky who he couldn't beat, but Jacky pulled off this absolute fucking gem of a move that I have to share it with everyone:

    Jacky performed a Turn Away attack, then immediately did a Kickflip which hit him as he tried to attack Jacky's back! DAMN!

    Anyway, at the end of the night my friend and I were going through the latest Arcadia magazine from which I took down some interesting notes.

    <font color=yellow>ARCADIA NOTES</font color=yellow>

    Tech Roll (TR):

    There's a brief explanation explaining the phases you go through as you TR. They've drawn a horizontal bar with three phases marked. There is no frame information given, but graphically, this bar looks something like:

    <pre> .
    _____________________________________|\
    | | | \
    | Ground | Normal | Normal \
    | Attacks | Attacks | Cond'n /
    |____________________|_________|_____ /
    |/
    `
    </pre>

    From the moment you initiate a TR up until a certain point (I think it's when you stop rolling) you are only vulnerable to Ground Attacks, like pounces, df+P's, df+K's, that kind of thing. The next short phase, which I think is at the end of the roll and as you begin to get up, you are vunerable to normal attacks (and I'm guessing low throws here, but I'm not sure). The next phase is when you're finally on your feet standing and return to normal condition, and like in previous VF games, there's a short window where you cannot be thrown.

    Here's some more interesting things about the TR. During the TR, if you hold G, your opponent's attacks will track you. However, if you don't hold G then you are more prone to being low thrown at the end of the TR (during the Normal Attack phase I believe).

    Face down knockdowns can be taken advantage of if the opponent tries to TR or QR (Quick Rise). Specifically:

    - face down, head towards: if the opponent tries to TR, your attack can interrupt them and leave them back-turned.
    - face down, head away: if the opponent tries to QR, your attack can interrupt them and leave them back-turned.

    The pics in the magazine show sidekicks interrupting the rolls, though I imagine any mid or even low hitting move will do the job. Also, I think the hit must occur during the "Normal Attack" phase of the TR, but immediately for the QR.

    They also show an example of Lei Fei performing the forward leaping-punch thingy after a face down, head towards knockdown interrupting a TR and leaving them back turned.

    *phew*

    OK here's some random stuff:

    - After throw escapes, there are no longer any guaranteed situations (attacks or throws/sidethrows). In most cases, the escapee will have a slight frame advantage and it's up to them to force the guessing game - attack or throw if in range.

    - Defending Akira's Pull-in-Throw (PIT) followups has changed for ver.B:
    --- PIT - P+K: defend with f+G
    --- PIT - u - P+K: defend with u+G
    --- PIT - d - P+K: defend with d+G

    - Aoi and Pai's low side throws can be escaped with just P+G, instead of the regular P+K+G. Don't ask me why!

    - There's a pic of Lau's sidekick being blocked, and the blurb says something along the lines of it not being P-counterable, so they recommend countering with a throw because it's faster than a P.

    - The suggested way of escaping Vanessa's arm grab is to hold G and wiggle the stick between down and neutral to guard both followup attacks (punch or low kick).

    - Kage stuff: Most P-counterable situations are also throw counterable. Don't ask me why this applies to Kage, and I'm not sure who else it applies to. They say not to bother with his df+K after any of his throws since they can all be struggled out of.

    - Akira stuff: DJK is pretty much guaranteed after every k.d. stagger. Ouch!

    - Some Akira combos:
    --- SgPm (wall-hit stagger) - SPoD (ouch again!)
    --- b+P+K+G, f+P - DJK
    --- PIT - SDE - DbPm
    --- PIT - u or d - P+K - SDE - DbPm
    --- PIT - SgPm - DbPm
    --- SDE - ShRm - AS#3 (MC req'd, light characters)

    The m-DbPm is back, baby! BTW, CPU Akira loves the meatplow combo: SDE - DbPm!

    OK that's it for now. If I get a chance, I'll post on any new notes I find. There's a chart in the magazine rating all the character's evade attacks. From memory, Aoi, Pai and Wolf's were the best, but I'm not sure what criteria they based this on. There's also a chart listing which direction you can dodge in to evade character's attacks. For each character, the attacks shown are the difficult ones to evade which can only be evaded in a certain direction - to the opponent's back or front.

    Please keep in mind that this information is the result of some translation so it may contain errors. This is just to give readers something to chew on until official information becomes available. Like I said, I'll post more as I come across it.

    Enjoy.
     
  2. Yamcha

    Yamcha Well-Known Member

    Good info there Myke, especially about the tech rolls. I've often been curious about its properties, expecially since most people have yet to develop a good okizeme game in reaction to it. Although the CPU does occaisionally do it like mad.
     
  3. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    This is some interesting shiat!!!

    - There's a pic of Lau's sidekick being blocked, and the blurb says something along the lines of it not being P-counterable, so they recommend countering with a throw because it's faster than a P.

    Ah-ha! This basically means that throws have at least faster execution than 8 frames and, most important of all, has approximately the same range as a punch.
     
  4. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    Throws' execution may be faster than 8 frames, but it definitiely shouldn't be possible to have a guaranteed throw counter when you're at eg. +7 or +5 frames; that'd create monsters :>



    <font color=orange>You now speak to GLC.</font color=orange>
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Mwahahahaa! Namoooo!
     
  6. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Jesus fucking christ almighty. You know, you might want to wait till you have some fucking hard numbers before you make such resounding conclusions like that, chimp. It may be character specific, you have no idea how fast who's punches are, etc, etc, etc, etc.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    For fuck's sake Rich, you're the one who looks like a chimp here.

    Read Myke's post again. The Arcadia book recommends you to go for the throw counter instead of a P counter after blocking Lau's side kick. No specific character mentioned here. Further, I think it's reasonable to assume that at least someone's punch is at least 8 frames fast. Myke also mentions how Arcadia recommends for Kage to go for throw counters instead of P counters, and is it unreasonable to assume that Kage's punch is still 8 frames? But even then, that wouldn't matter very much in the end anyway, as I'm pretty sure most throws are faster than 8 frames in execution.

    The two important things to be learned here is that throws are faster than punches but have similar range. You don't need hard numbers to come to this conclusion.

    And finally: READ THE DAMN POST.

    "Ah-ha! This basically means that throws have at least faster execution than 8 frames and, most important of all, has approximately the same range as a punch."

    Bold emphasis added in. What the hell is so "resounding" about "basically," "at least" and "approximately"?!

    Ass.
     
  8. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    Ah-ha! This basically means that throws have at least faster execution than 8 frames and, most important of all, has approximately the same range as a punch."

    Unless Lau's blocked sidekick is a unique situation, making a throw have longer range than a punch. Lau's df+K has always been wacky, be it VF2 or 3. Guess it's the same in VF4.

    Besides, I think you're having throw execution frame stats mixed up. In VF3 you had a guaranteed when at +8 frames, but did it mean throws took eg. 7 frames to come out? Nope, they took just 1 frame. If I followed your reasoning, a VF3 throw's execution could be anywhere from 1 to 8 frames and still a powerful counter even at +1.



    <font color=orange>You now speak to GLC.</font color=orange>
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I took the Lau sidekick tidbit, combined it with the Kage info and that is how I came to the very general conclusion that 1) throws are faster than punch in execution (not surprising) and 2) throwing range is approaching punch.

    Besides, I think you're having throw execution frame stats mixed up. In VF3 you had a guaranteed when at 8 frames, but did it mean throws took eg. 7 frames to come out? Nope, they took just 1 frame. If I followed your reasoning, a VF3 throw's execution could be anywhere from 1 to 8 frames and still a powerful counter even at 1.

    Actually, no, I'm not getting things mixed up. In VF3 throws are instantaneous. In VF4 throws are not; they have execution time. Exactly what properties they are (i.e. are they like catch throws, can they throw an opponent recovering from a move, etc.), I don't know. The reason why my post is useful is that now we can place a ceiling on how fast the typical throw takes to execute; most likely faster than 8 frames (could be 1 frame, could be 3 frames, but at least 8. We now also have an idea of what that throw range is, even if its a dash canceled into a throw (but even then, the dash cancel plus throw should be less than 8 frames).

    Get where I'm coming from?

    The bit where your VF3 analogy goes wrong is that you typically need range to throw. I.e., even if you have 1 advantage, you're probably not within range to throw.
     
  10. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    In VF3 throws are instantaneous.

    They're VIRTUALLY instantaneous - VF3 throws have 1 frame execution. If the frames are even (you're a 0), and both a move and a throw are executed, the throw will get interrupted.

    I'd like to elaborate some more on your post, but since it's 3am here, I'll just go to sleep ;>


    <font color=orange>You now speak to GLC.</font color=orange>
     
  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Well you know what I mean...no such thing as a 0-frame input/output...impossible.

    But I think I know where you are coming from. I.e. the whole range/frame speed thing could somehow be hardwired against Lau's sidekick and for Kage only. True, that could be.
     
  12. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    >The two important things to be learned here is that throws are faster than punches but >have similar range. You don't need hard numbers to come to this conclusion.
    >And finally: READ THE DAMN POST.

    You do the same, Jeff, and while you're at it, eat shit and die. There is no indication in the post that throws are faster than punches *overall*. The only thing it says is that for Kage, his throws are *as fast* as his punch, which, when it came to mC'ing moves, was the case in VF3. And the Lau example is totally up for grabs - who was blocking Lau's sidekick? Was it Kage, or, say, Jeff? It depends entirely on who the character was. For example Jeff's throws "came out" faster than his punches in VF2/3; Akira's throws needed more time to mC than his punches in VF2, less in VF3, the same for Kage/Lau/etc (to put this into simple form for your feeble brain, this means Jeff and other characters with slow punches could mC with throws in VF2/3 when they couldn't mC with their punches - even Jacky/Lau/Akira's could mC moves with throws in VF3 where they could not mC with their Px). Who knows what it will be in VF4?

    You simply cannot say from that limited bit of information about how fast throws come out, and for who.

    Do you really fucking know *anything* about VF when you talk about it, much less use logic?

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  13. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Don't even bother, it's not worth it - this *is* Jeff, remember. The post you replied to is a fucking joke.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  14. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Again, awesome stuff Myke! Thanks for the info.

    The m-DbPm is back, baby! BTW, CPU Akira loves the meatplow combo: SDE - DbPm!

    Damn! =)
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    You do the same, Jeff, and while you're at it, eat shit and die. There is no indication in the post that throws are faster than punches *overall*. The only thing it says is that for Kage, his throws are *as fast* as his punch, which, when it came to mC'ing moves, was the case in VF3.

    WRONG.

    And the Lau example is totally up for grabs - who was blocking Lau's sidekick? Was it Kage, or, say, Jeff? It depends entirely on who the character was.

    I assumed since Arcadia did not mention any specific character (or Myke missed it in the translation), that means for everyone.

    For example Jeff's throws "came out" faster than his punches in VF2/3; Akira's throws needed more time to mC than his punches in VF2, less in VF3, the same for Kage/Lau/etc (to put this into simple form for your feeble brain, this means Jeff and other characters with slow punches could mC with throws in VF2/3 when they couldn't mC with their punches - even Jacky/Lau/Akira's could mC moves with throws in VF3 where they could not mC with their Px).

    This explanation is as confusing as it refutes what I just posted: in other words, it's fucking confusing. I'm no expert at VF2 and did not read any FAQs, so I will not comment.

    But for VF3, what the fuck do you mean by "Jeff's throws 'came out' faster than his punches"? No shit it comes out faster, it's 1 frame in execution. His punch is 12 frames.

    Now if you think about what Myke posted, you will realize the 10 minutes you took to write your crappy explanation was a complete waste of time. Arcadia claims that KAGE, with his assumed 8-frame punch, should throw counter instead of punch counter. Now if you're JEFF with an assumed 12-frame punch, OF COURSE you should go for the throw-counter instead of a punch-counter. If punch counter sucks for super ninja Kage, it probably sucks even more for slow, meant-to-be-throw-based Jeffry (keep in mind we're assuming Px range).

    Now, it's entirely possible that Jeffry's throws has longer execution than Kage's throws such that a punch counter is favorable (doubt it), or that Kage's punch is the slowest (ha!), or that this phenomena is somehow hardwired to Kage only. I've already admitted as such in my previous post.

    Rich, your ill-founded sense of superiority is exceeded only by your bitch attitude. Congratulations, you have just wasted 20 minutes of my life.
     
  16. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    I'm not even going to bother with this, because getting involved in "discussions" with you is worse than getting involved in land wars in Asia and the Middle East. It's long, taxing, ultimately pointless with little benefit in the end. You're fucked in the head, Jeff. Utterly and completely. Logic frightens you.

    All I will suggest is to read some of the documents I put together in the VF Archive, and to fucking stop pretending like you know anything about what you're talking about, asshole.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Asshole, I only read bits and pieces of your Kage FAQ just so I can praise your efforts and satisfy your frail and bitter ego. But in the snatches that I skimmed, I already found half-a-dozen MISTAKES. And you want me to study your VF Archive and take it as gospel?!
     
  18. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    AHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!@!@!!@!@ Like I actually give a fucking rats ass what *YOU* think of the guide...mmmphhbWaAHahHAHA!!! That's really hysterical. I really mean it. Wotta laugh.

    And as far as these "errors" go, if you haven't figured out by now that you've got NO credibility with me, then you really are gone. And it's amazing how you just popped up the subject so suddenly. Like, how totally high-school, dude!

    Do I sense bitterness that I wrote the guide you only _wish_ you could have, brat?

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  19. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Sigh.
     
  20. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Damn! =)

    <hr></blockquote>

    Giddyup!

    <font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
    <font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>
     

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