vf4 - dodge low punch into lowthrow/low side throw?

There was a debate on irc regarding this situation in vf4. Hiro wanted me to post this (cause his IE keeps crashing) for general information purposes:

In VF3, say Wolf defended the opp’s low rising kick, he had +12. (HCB+P was guaranteed and it came out in 12 fr in VF3.) Right after he defends it, he would press E to dodge the opp’s d+P. This is something you can NOT do in VF4. In VF4, if you start dodging before the opp’s move starts to come out, you will get unsuccessful dodge. In VF3, there was only one kind of dodging, which took a lot of frames to finish. (28 frames) That’s why you had to try to dodge when you had some advantage or when you were even in VF3. (well, you could shorten the time length of dodging by CD, but then, you won’t be able to dodge moves very well.) d+P from crouching position came out in 10 fr in VF3. So, when you had +12 and dodged right away, it would still take 16 fr (= 28-12) to finish your dodging when the opp’s d+P finishes coming out. Since the opp would stay in the motion of d+P for another 20-30 fr, it was no problem and you could low-throw him. (Also, throws came out in 1 fr in VF3.)

OK. Now, VF4. In VF4, you have to start dodging AFTER the opp’s move starts to come out. Thus, it does not make any sense at all to dodge when you have advantage. (You would just get unsuccessful dodge.) And, it takes 17 frames for successful dodges to finish their motion. Also, keep in mind that throws come out in 8 frames in Vf4. So, suppose you are super LUCKY and could dodge the opp’s d+P right when it started to come out, i.e. at the 1 st fr. Then, when d+P finishes coming out, you are still dodging. (Still need 6 frames to finish dodging, since d+P finishes coming out in 12 fr.) Taking into consideration that low-throws come out in 8 fr, you need 14 frames in total, even when you act at the fastest timing. I would imagine that the opp will stay in the motion of d+P for about 20 fr (? I don’t know the exact number as it is not important) after it finishes coming out. Well, in this case, low-throws can be done. However, in a regular game play, you would not be able to dodge at the first frame of the coming-out motion of the opp’s move. Maybe, the most common occasion where you have only a slight advantage is when the opp’s d+P hits you. Then, you can try this, and may work in fact. However, it has nothing to do with the gameplay as some sensible players would know. When the opp’s d+P hits you, you will have to guess whether mid or throw is coming. And, if you are trying to dodge and low-throw, you won’t be able to do anything when mid comes and you will get thrown when throw comes. (Normal, (well maybe in this continent very good, ) players would do dodge-throw-escape if they would dodge in this situation.) Personally, I would see what kind of move I dodge before trying to do low-throw. I may do high-throws without checking what I dodged since the same input will work as a throw-escape. (Many low attacks are half or full circular and no point in trying to do dodge-low-throw.) I must say that from the argument I hear, I am really disappointed by the low level of gameplay (not even gameplay, just thinking, itself. No logical thinking…) And I heard there are people who practice this kind of stuff before understanding more important things in the game. Well, sure, they can go ahead and satisfy themselves, and not get better in the actual gameplay.

Now, you see the reason why people say it is almost even after dodging P or d+P. Successful dodge comes out ONLY when you have disadvantage. And, it takes 17 frames to finish dodging. (It can not be cancelled by CD.)

Lastly, I can not believe how narrow minded people here are. Banning IMF because of this!? Of course, I don’t have any desire to interact with those people I don’t care, but for American VFers, this is the only place where they can get together, right? I wonder how VF-ignorant people can ban other people over VF arguments. Well, I was honestly disappointed by how people played in NYG3. I mean, people who talk a lot on VFDC and other places. I never had to pay attention to the game when I was playing. And still wants to have tournaments?? There, I let each one win two rounds each time. Also, I let Andy win since he saw so much value in this thing, which is good because he tries things besides his talking. I was surprised to see how people only talk and can not do the simplest stuff against human opponents. Saying and doing are two different things.

 

nice post. nice and long. and pointless.

Let me just clarify things for those who don't know. And that seems to include everyone. Everyone.

A fairly innocuous exchange took place in IRC about a week ago between two #vfhome members. IMF and Lonelyfighter. here it is(not verbatim):

*IMF throws a low punch at lonely
*lonelyfighter dodges and low side throws. (refering to VF3)

From here it all went to hell. and its still going there. It's nice that people have such shallow worth they'll make this absolutely retarted subject a major issue.

Hiro, IMF was banned because very few people like him on vfhome and he does nothing to help his case. Your essay does nothing to change that fact. but so it goes.

Since I asserted (and have video proof) that you can low throw after a dodging a low punch ( but at no time did I assert that it was safe, a guarantee or wise move something often overlooked by the stunning genius of the people choosing to make this more than it is ) I can only assume you are refering to me when you write : And I heard there are people who practice this kind of stuff before understanding more important things in the game

you heard. you never saw and you don't know. I can't make it any more clear then that. Or, rather, I could but very few people involved in this would understand it any better.

GE
what mad pursuit

 

Oh! Is the video evidence from our bashing heads a week or so ago? I remember a few low-side throws in there -- in fact I remeber escaping one n'est pas?


kbcat

 

low side throws were from other set ups. not a dodged low punch.

GE

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Since I asserted (and have video proof) that you can low throw after a dodging a low punch ( but at no time did I assert that it was safe, a guarantee or wise move something often overlooked by the stunning genius of the people choosing to make this more than it is )

[/ QUOTE ]

Lonely and I were playfully trying to best each other (as we often do) talking about VF gameplay. The problem starts when you decide to make an ass out of yourself and assert that not only can it be done, but that you have done it, and have it on tape! Why you would admit to that, is beyond me. Why even come in and say what you said if you knew that the tactic was lame? I'm interested to know really.

 

A good post hiro. I just wanted to make one part clear for people who have trouble understanding the frames:

1. It is possible
2. It's pretty hard
3. You would have been better off low throwing a whiffed punch rather than dodging it and low throwing.

The following is an explanation for everyone else, not to hiro who I'm pretty sure already knows:

If akira does ff+P, d+P, dbpm then you can simply guard the dashing elbow, then low throw the low punch immediately after it misses (it usually misses if you blocked his elbow). You can also dodge and low throw the low punch before akira's double palm can come out, but (as hiro said), the dodge must happen during the first frame of the dodge. Even then it's hard because you must prevent a dodge attack attack from coming out (dodging and entering df+PKG will cause a dodge attack instead of a low throw, oops). To prevent the dodge attack you must do your perfectly timed dodge, tap guard right away while your wrestler is still dodging, then enter your low throw command.
-------
In practice mode I had akira do f,f+P, low punch, dbpm (all with buffering) and was only able to dodge the low punch and successfully low throw a few times. The timing is tough and even with all that work, you only get a regular low throw rather than the cool low side throws we used to see in VF3. So doing the dodge into low throw is cool but pointless vs low punches.

Look at it another way - to low throw a low punch after a dashing elbow requires prediction of the low punch. To dodge and low throw in the same situation requires predicting the dashing elbow, it's that difficult to do even when you have a perfect setup. So why do all the extra work for no reward? People who play wolf or jeffry should look for ways to set up a whiffed low punch (like after akira's blocked dashing elbow, or even after you make the opponent block your move). Also, something hiro did in NYG3 reminded me of another rarely used and powerful technique - if you have an advantage on the opponent by even a couple of frames, and you think they will do a low punch... do your own low punch and interrupt it. Then while they are still in hit stun, quickly enter a low throw. If they fail to react right away or hold guard, then they will eat the low throw.

PS: It's not really fair to say the IMF ban happened because the person banning was ignorant of VF, but GE's perspective isn't quite fair either because I don't think THAT many people dislike imf in #vfhome. I agree with you that banning someone in the midst of a VF argument is counterproductive.

 

IMF you really are the dumbest person I've ever come across. Really.

once again you find it outside of your limited comprehension skills to argue anything correctly. so it goes. I never said said the tactic was lame, you did. I never said anything outside of the fact that it could be done. Why you are incapable of understanding this I don't know.

I “admitted†what I did because in a public chat you said these very words: “it can’t be done in a matchâ€Â. Guess what, I had a VF session the weekend prior to this statement and had proof of your being wrong. Don’t give me, “well I meant this,†or “given a situaion where†because regardless of what you were thinking, you only wrote “it can’t be done in a matchâ€Â. And you were wrong. I would have given my two cents if you had written something else equally as wrong like, “P chouwan is guaranteed†or “jacky’s knee is not throw counterableâ€Â.

Now, you were such a child you needed to change the argument to whether or not it’s a guarantee or not. Then you need to question the validity of the tactic when once again the debate was centered around whether or not it could be done. I tell you I have proof on tape because I figure, “well, he’s dense but not so dense as to discount hard evidenceâ€Â.

But now the frames come out and tell that it is possible regardless of video. and now, once again you try to change to focus of the argument so you look less stupid. Too bad it shows up like neon green.

GE

 

you still miss the crux of why this thread and the resulting argument is beyond stupid.

someone put forth a "truism" that was proven false. that should be the end of it. obviously someone doesn't like to be proven wrong. shrug

moreover your #3 was based upon something that is incorrect. that the E-lowthrow was meant to catch a low punch. Sometimes you can yomi the level, not the specific attack. Which doesn't at all affect the truth of numbers 1 and 2.

GE

 

Doh, I'm not trying to turn this into a stupid semantics bitch fest, but right at the top of my post I simply say "I'm gonna clarify what hiro's saying for frames-challenged people"... and so I did. At this point, dodging a low punch and low throwing IS the topic, nobody really cares to clarify the point in order to ascertain whether XX person on IRC is right or YY person is being a jackass. Adam posted because he simply wanted to discuss the plausibility of E-low throw vs. a low punch with the rest of the forum, the fact that the origin of the discussion was something else entirely on irc doesn't matter anymore.

Also, in keeping with the current fun trend, where exactly did I imply that anything is "meant" to do anything? E followed by low throw is merely a string. d+P+K is "meant" to grab low punches, but I'd never say E-low throw is "meant" to be an anti-low punch tactic. I was merely commenting on why it's a crappy tactic even if you had the skill to pull it off - namely that there's an easier alternative that gives you the exact same benefits with much less work. I didn't want to sound like I was saying "E-low throw is cool, but it's too hard to be powerful" because a lot of people might say the same thing about akira's spod or wolf's 6 frame giant swing. I wanted to point out that the tactic is virtually worthless (vs low punches) not because it's difficult, but because easier ways to punish a low punch exist that are just as effective.

 

The mere fact that some of North America's top VFers are contemplating this idea makes the VF scene in this region look stupid.....

Jesus guys, Let it go!

 

I never go to IRC and I have no idea whatsoever what some of the things said here are about. But here is some personal anecdotal account.

Near the end of VF3's lifespan, This became my absolute favorite Jeffry Tactic: Either jab or CD-low punch the opponent. In response, 90% of the time the opp either:
1. Punch back. 2. Low punch. 3. or Elbow.

To counter all of these, all I have to do was immediately dodge and do my favorite high/low throw. Jab-sidestep-throw. Or lowpunch-sidestep throw. It just worked so well against majority of people. Practically no yomi required and very few people escape throws properly in this kind of situation. Of course, good players would have eventually caught on and do something like throwing me out of dodges or such. (But then, again it was near the end of VF3's lifespan and I haven't had that many chances to do this. It just worked amazingly well whenever I had a chance to use it however.)

After VF4 came out, one of the first things I realized was that this tactic became all but useless in VF4. This made me say that dodges in VF4 got severely weakened and made harder to use. It took me a while before I realized that the dodges in VF4 is not weaker, just different by a wide margin.

In actual matches, I have been thrown many times after my low punch got dodged by my opp by HIGH THROWS. In turn I also threw my opponents many times with high throws after dodging their low punches. Defensive instinct in such situation is to block high in fear of mid attacks, so high throws happen often in such situation at least from my exp. People don't really block low in such situations so going for low throw is just not practical.


Now Hiro's post cleared up a lot of things that were vaguely evident from experiences but never previously backed with hard facts.

Okay, that had nothing to do with the pointless flame war about which this thread was supposed to be(I think).

I suppose the "point" of this "debate" would be if you will take "can" only as the most literal sense (You "can" if you have 0.01% possibility of being able to.), or consider that it has other implicit meanings in everyday usage?

Okay, this post did not offer anything really new I suppose. Ignore and move on.

 

Do ya like to cross the line GodEater? /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I “admitted†what I did because in a public chat you said these very words: “it can’t be done in a matchâ€Â. Guess what, I had a VF session the weekend prior to this statement and had proof of your being wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, that had better be a dodged LP into low 'side' throw that you have on that tape. Because that is what the original topic was about. I did say that you wont get that in match play. You can state all day that it IS possible to use any move in the game and it CAN work. But what is your point? If you don't believe that dodging LP into low(side) throw is viable as a LP counter then why push the issue that you "have done it"? To me it's like saying that you can and have used Kage's cannonball dive in serious play. You're just being an ass.