VF4 Evolution Goh Thread

is goh a straight grappler or can he combo with the best of them

 

pretty much straight grappler, his combos are limited like... slam attack -> P -> slam attack -> ground kick. Or elbow stagger -> elbow-upperct.

 

He's got some nice grapple combos as well though. After his +, you can go for the pounce or down throw, but the shoulder->small down attack is more damge.

Considering he's got the most hit throws per character (three I think) as well as a guaranteed low throw on counter move, I'd say it's safe to call him a grappler.

 

does Tsukami mean that (hold) like vannessa... could you tell me how that works...(we have no evo) like is it easily broken by tapping all the buttons and stuff like that... /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

I want to use Goh so bad I don't know what to do!! Where in the Hell can I find a Evo maching in the Wash., DC, Maryland and Virginia area? And if none in the area, on what system and when can I expect Evo to come home?

 

VF in the MD/D.C area...buahaha...a nice dream..but only a dream... /versus/images/icons/confused.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

 

Tsukami is a noun form of the verb Tsukamu -- which means to hold (tightly) -- or grapple in this case.

For Gohh's holds, you have to move the joystick the OPPOSITE way he's moving you. IE, he takes you backwards, you push forwards, etc. Can be really frustrating, as he's got Sabaki's that will go into Tsukami on successful Sabaki.

 

update on GOH's hit throws:
Goh actually has five:
66P (f,f+P)->4P+G (b+P+G)>+
P+K->P+G+>+
66K+G->4P+G+>+
3K+G->6P+G+>+
43P+K->P+G+>+

 

Well, not exactly. I wouldn't say that the either the +,+ nor the ++,++ are hit throws. They're the sabaki lead-ins to his Tsukami. Neither of them do any damage.

cheers,

 

I totally agree. Especially with respect to ++ since you can do it at any time and still get the throw. The low punch sabaki is a little different in that it has to sabaki in order for the throw follow up to come out. But, I still don't think of it as a hit throw (since it the sabaki does actually do any hitting).


cheers,
kbcat

 

Random Goh Crap.

Awwwjeah making use of the placeholder thread.

I can't recall seeing too much of this discussed elsewhere, but I'm sure it's there and my memory is to blame. But just in case it's not, here's some Random Goh Crap.

A lot of his moves make me think of aoi but beefier. Here's some stuff that is roughly ordered from useful to not-useful. I may be missing some hella useful stuff in here, this is from experimentation - I failed to do my homework before trying goh out.
---------
, - a body blow (your basic elbow with a different animation) into force-crouch overhead punch. It's not as mediocre in recovery as aoi's, not punch counterable afaict, and you're definitely + on major counter with the second one, where aoi is neutral. So do f+P, delay, P, and if you catch them on MC with the second one, you can do the following:

1. If they're dumb and hold guard (or prone to freezing up) -> either of goh's low throws will succeed, whether they hold G or D+G.

2. If they low punch out of it -> you low punch first and score a MC low punch, so far I haven't found anything much better than this. If your spacing is correct, it may be possible that their low punch will whiff and you can then low throw it. But that's a rough option, because it requires you to just stand there and stare at the space between you and your opponent. If they catch on to you doing that you might get hurt.
A second f+P,P will get stuffed, so the initiative on a MC f+P,P is probably +1 for goh. If it were +2 he could stuff their low punch with another f+P.

3. Opponent dodges - this beats low throw attempts, something I didn't know until FLA. That's true of any force crouch situation. So that sucks for goh. Goh can high throw, but if they dodge and do throw escapes that might fail. I'm wondering how f,f+P+G (catch throw) might do here, but never thought to try it.

- Akira's P,P except with great recovery, very uncounterable. Second hit is true mid. On MC it might give frame advantage.

- a quick midlevel kick, looks like a fast akira sidekick, but with short range. Very quick and safe, staggers crouchers, but never knocks down. A good zoning/defensive poke. There's also...

- similar to the standing K, but with longer range and it always knocks down. I didn't play with it much, it probably has worse recovery than K but I don't know how much worse.

- sort of a slow execution but fast recovery sidekick. The longest range kick goh has aside from his sweep. It's safe but otherwise I'm not sure what else to say about it. It doesn't knock down afaict.

, - a little like aoi's... a slower mid-mid canned combo than f+P,P... but also stronger. The first hit forces crouch, second knocks down. From what I can see, this is always a true combo if the first one hits, and it's got decent range and speed (feels faster than a knee, but it's not elbow class). If the opponent isn't hit by the first one and they duck the second one, it's true mid and staggers. Recovery on the move is too crappy to really enforce a stagger guessing game though. This one's throw/P counterable. It doesn't track even a tiny bit either, but it does give goh a nice canned combo that will make the opponent phear a f+P+K,P or f+P+K, throw guessing game.
This is my main quick-and-damaging response to anticipated low punches or in situations where I have initiative and want to beat someone's attack for damage + knockdown. Sadly, it might be your most effective counter to stuff like blocked kickflips, goh doesn't have a lot of simple knockdowns.

- identical in look to akira's shrm, it's uncounterable (? am I remembering right IMF?). It doesn't hit quite so low to the floor. On hit, any hit, it produces butt stumble animation every time. From there goh can crouch dash forward into the meanest guessing games... i.e. another shoulder ram, or a throw, or possibly the low kick hit throw. Or, be like imf and crouch dash forward and sit there, then try to shrm them after a small delay. Very similar to the jacky f,f+K meanness in version C.

- goh sways back, then comes forward with a true-mid knockdown uppercut. Vs. standing opponents, with or without MC, you have a float sufficient to get a decent combo. Against crouchers you settle for the knockdown. This move seemed to have a lot of potential but the sway back is kind of slight and very slow. I was hoping this could do miraculous stuff like pai's db+P ... i.e. duck out of the way of sidekicks and other mids, then come back for the smackdown. But because the dodge aspect of this is so sux0r, there really isn't any chance you'll be able to wipe out stuff like SDE or heelkicks with it. You pretty much can only count on it to smack someone from a position where their incoming attack would have whiffed completely anyway. I was primarily using it when my opponent would approach me with whiffed high punches. The good news is the recovery kicks ass, it's uncounterable and probably could make for good bait. Scroll to the end for combos. PS: Just found out this charges as well.

- think of akira's or lau's b,f+P ... a standing palm strike that flops... but goh's kinda sucks because it only flops on MC. Normal hits/mC are nothing special. If it flops you get a decent combo followup, and the move is quick and safe at least. I'm guessing it's a 14 framer rather than a 13 framer like lau's badass stpm.

- your standard midlevel low-punch-crusher. It's like lau's d+P+K (or lau's b+P for that matter). It seems to stuff low punch cleanly except at very close range. It also forces crouch for the standard force-crouch-guessing-game. I probably should have used it more... but it really should sabaki or something, it's ok range and speed but it's got nothing on vanessa's b+P or akira's b,df+P.

- hit throws into (or is it neutral P+G?) ... it requires a MC, which is only fair. Damage for hit + throw is nice, 70 pts maybe. The execution on the low kick is slow, but doesn't feel too much worse than wolf's (which is what it looks like). I can't tell what the recovery is. Probably low throwable if blocked, but not elbow-able. The main use I had for this is to try to stuff approaches like blondie's horrifically fruity brad PP-forward sway stuff. It's not useful unless the opponent is aggressive, and even then... you can anticipate a high punch, and land the kick, but because the kick is so slow you're really just nailing a minor counter and won't get the throw.

- slowest sweep in the game, but deceptively good recovery. But! It's shitty for a couple of reasons besides the speed. It's only half circular, not full circular. It doesn't knock down except on interrupt. It recovers standing, so you don't get to do something cool like db+K+G --> shoulder ram. The only use I found for it is to tick off that last bit of life at the end of the round. Everyone expects a low attack, but they don't expect a low attack with six feet of range coming from stubby-legged goh. I caught people napping from what-they-thought-was-outside-of-attack-range a couple of times with this.

- a fairly slow knee, maybe 16 frames. On hit it produces an odd hitstun, something like aoi's shin crush (db+P) animation. On MC it produces a reaaaallly looong hitstun. It's not a crumple, but it might as well be, you have forever to toss in a free hit afterwards. The speed makes this less useful than it could be, and it doesn't feel like it nets you frame advantage without a counter.

- just like aoi's, the animation looks like jerky's new hit-throw starter. A slow gut punch that always crumples if it hits, allowing for a free combo and probably a free low throw. It sabakis knees only apparently, which is a little disappointing. If it was more like lion's meteor punch that'd be great.

or - works like pai's, it's specifically made to trip up dodges. Not sure what the reward is if it's successful. Unlike pai's it can hit if they're not dodging which causes a funky new "ahhh you have spread my legs apart and it has made me very uncomfortable!" animation. You may get frame advantage if that happens, but the move in general has crappy recovery like pai's.

- not sure what the use of this is, a slow overhead smack that I think forces crouch.

- a basic slow high crescent, good recovery I'm guessing... I didn't test it. Goes into a canned that crumples. This will probably work the first two or three times you use it on people and then never again. Reminds me of aoi's f+K+G, P.

- some sort of low poke, a hand sweep that executes sort of like akira's df+P+K, except that this gets you nothing on counterhit from what I can tell. It never seems to knock down. It's evidently just a low poke, and I can't really see much reason to use it... unless it's fully circular or something.

--------
Combos:
b+P+K - your solitary float starter. In closed stance a pretty solid followup is P -> P -> f+P+K (slams). The slam is tough to tech roll, and if they're new or have trouble with timing, a df+P+G ground throw will work. If they can handle escaping escaping the ground throw, then a df+P will hit, but a pounce will be avoided.
The f+P+K combo whiffs in open stance, I don't have a good confirmed alternative but a decent combo ender is probably modified FC,f+P+K. The second hit of f+P,P also slams in floats, but I generally whiff the second P if I try b+P+K -> P -> f+P,P.

f+K (MC) -> b,f+P+K (crumple) -> ?? I got ground throw, I tried pounce but goh hop punches, maybe I need to wait a little. I didn't land this enough in real battles to come up with a good combo. Second hit of f+P,P whiffs, maybe f+P+K,P will work. Or maybe another knee or a modified shoulder ram is best.

b,f+P (MC) -> P -> f+P+K (slams) -> ground punch. Closed stance only. In open probably end in P -> m-shrm.

So far that's goh's three whole combos. Maybe someone knows of other combo starters.
-----------------------
throws:

df+P+G - a pretty good basic-single-direction-throw, a ground punch will work of they do anything other than roll towards goh's lead foot (I think). Pretty much the equivalent of akira's df+P+G, ground punch. It also looks cool. Probably a 52 point throw after the punch.

df,df+P+G - just another XPD - decent damage combines with a 100% guaranteed ground punch for like 75 pts.

270 - 80 pts with no followup I think. Cool looking.

HCF+P+G - also cool looking, 60 pts? People kept rolling out of my ground punch so it's not for free.

HCB+P+G - maybe 60, and I think the ground punch afterwards IS guaranteed.

b+P+G - I forget, 40 or 50. Looks like df,df+P+G (goh flips you over his shoulder) but ground punch won't connect.

The catch thingy - not sure if I have it down pat completely. I think this is how it works.

Goh catches you and can choose to throw you right away (in one of four directions) or he can drag you once around the ring, gambling for more damage. If you throw right away damage is sucky, maybe 40 pts.
If you gamble and drag the opponent around first, damage will be much better... ~60 pts or more. Plus some throws guarantee ground attacks.

Basically this catch works like wolf's ... do a throw right away, which gives the opponent one chance to escape, or change position and try for a stronger throw, which gives them two chances to escape.

The escape is to press the stick in the opposite direction that goh tries to drag you, and press guard... i.e. you think goh will try to drag you up, press d+G to get out. If he tries to pull you forward, press b+G to get out.
The escapes seem to leave a neutral situation.
If you don't escape getting dragged around, I'm not sure if you can escape the throw followup, and how that's done. I think my confusion comes from the fact that you can catch them and drag them around TWICE, but I don't know if you can
1. choose to catch and then throw immediately
2. catch, drag once, then throw for increased damage
3. catch, drag twice, and throw for even MORE damage.

Goh players, is this how it works?
I think once someone is caught by goh they have to be a little lucky to get out, so I always gamble on dragging them around twice then throwing.

 

Re: Random Goh Crap.

Good post Creed -- some comments from much Goh playing...

+ -- his knee is slow (16 or 17 frames), and highly counterable. But if you atnticipate an MC and enter ++ right away it will combo (according to 1/60 stun from MC knee is 24 frames, and the uppercut takes 24 frames to come out -- this tends to agree with my experience with it. If I'm even a bit slow the uppercut gets blocked).

+ -- this is actually a pretty fast move ofr Goh, and on MC it guarrantees a low throw (i.e. +8 or more frame advantage). I've never missed a low throw off of an MC hit yet -- an remeber his +++ low throw can be "traditionally" escaped. One has to escape it during the tsukami part.

++ - quick note: it's throw counterable.

++ - while this is a half circular sweep it has huge range -- definitely worth doing from a distance. If you want to discourage dodging I suggest + or ++.

|++ - This does have it's uses -- it's confusing and dodges a bit. If it MCs you are in a very favourable position (it's not quite a guarranteed throw, but doing a throw if it MCs is a good bet).

++ - causes stomach-KD / crumple on MC. But yeah I find it quite slow.

+ - what this move gets you is a lot of damage for a low poking move (22 points if I remeber correctly). it ducks and is generally better than his low kick.


Some moves you forgot that are really useful:
|++ - this is Goh's equivalent to Pai's trip. It'll snag tech-rollers and you can combo in some wierd places (after and MC +, or and MC |++). The hit does 10pts, the trip does 20pts, and you're in a position to go for a ground throw.

+ - this is a standing low kick that has this weird hit in the shin animation like Aoi's +. The good part is it's a lot faster than Aoi's move, and like Aoi's guarrantees a low throw on MC. It's a very fast low attack for Goh and I use it quite alot -- because of it's surprise potential even seasoned throw escapers (like Llan) have a hard hit escapeing the +++ throw.


Regarding the Tsukami:
If you throw right away (i.e. no motion) then it's just a push away for no damage. Also the movement and the trow is separate - i.e. I can tap wait a bit then hit +, and I'll get the .+ throw. I usually repeatedly press + when I want to throw because I've found that if you do hit the stick and buttons at the same time you may not get the throw, just the motion.

Escaping - I've also found that if your timing isn't spot on (i.e. you are doing motions and throws as soon as you possibly can) then it's very easy for your opponent to escape by just rotating the stick quickly, and repeatedly.


On a wierd side note:
On our Japanese board boith Brad and Goh have this wierd bug where they can pounce if they have their back turned to their opponent. Just tap + and off they go pouncing when they shouldn't be able to (i.e. their back it to their opponent who is standing and ready to kick ass). Llany and I tried to do some crazy ass combos with this bug but found it very difficult. So, if you are a Goh, or Brad, player don't ever hit + when you're trying to struggle your way out of a surprise exchange

 

<font color="orange"> Llanfair</font color> have either you or <font color="orange">kbcat </font color> had any pleasant experience with the low punch sabaki?
thx in advance for your help.
43+P+K

 

The low punch sabaki.

I have to say I haven't had a pleasanrt experience with it. I think it's sabaki window is too small for it to be worth the risk. If you think a low punch is coming you're probably better off avoiding it (backwards movement, or dodge), or blocking it, than going for the low punch sabaki. At least that's my experience, I have a really hard time "nailing" the sabaki even though it was a low punch that I tried to sabaki.

How about you nycat?

kbcat

 

Well I can't blame the buttons or the sticks but i found I missed timed it more often than not. I fight against several players that fall into repeated low punches as a flinching sort of go to move. One is a Kage player; one is a Wolf. When I use Vanessa I hit the sabaki more consistantly than with Goh. Maybe I'm trying too hard. I look forward to reading more of your shared thoughts about your GOH play. Thx for posting your thoughts. I hope your crew can come to NYC for VF4 EVO. Shota will be here this weekend.

 

I've noticed that after the Sabaki, the P+G into Tsukami won't always work, maybe it's stance dependent? I've seen Goh whiff right in front of the oppt several times.

But, I think if you do land it, b+P+K and f,f+K+G are guaranteed.

Also, Goh's b, f+P also knocks down on minor counter and during staggers. So, if you block a move like AKira's DblPm or Jeffry's Knee, you can combo. Or, try staggering with the Shoulder or d/f+P, then b, f+P against people who don't recover quickly.

Spotlite

 

Re: Random Goh Crap.

I remember a Daioh clip (daioh_ero02914_8.wmv) featuring Arashi playing very strong with Goh. During one particular match against Kage, he managed to Sabaki an elbow with + a few times, and entering Tsukami directly afterwards with the canned +. I finally got a chance to play some Evo this weekend in Orlando and used Goh a few times, but never got a chance to experiment with this move. Since you have Evo in your area, can you find out what else + can sabaki?

 

Re: Random Goh Crap.

more really elite goh stuff.
After ff+P+G -> b,f+P+K for a high damage option that's easier than m-shrm and better than u+P.

From the green book DVD:
Goh gets hit by kage's bb+K+G, anticipates the common d+P followup, and uses b,df+P to sabaki it. The followup he uses (is it guaranteed? Kage still seemed to be reeling) is b+P+K -> P -> P -> f+P+K. Had kage failed to TR, a ground punch would have ensued.
Immediately after, kage tech rolls and eats a low throw. It's the oldest anti-tr strat and it still works. Kage probably chose to TR because earlier in the match goh had a small float, used a dinky low kick to end it, and when kage failed to TR goh dash in and did a ground throw.

The nice knee combo is confirmed: f+K (MC) -> b+P+K -> P -> b+P (slams) -> ground punch or ground throw. Or alternate in open stance with b+P+K, P, m-shrm.

After a shrm stagger -> dashing elbow hit-throw. Really convinces them to guard or dodge, allowing for a chance to 270.

After what I think is a well-charged b+P+K -> b,f+P (knocks down since it hits during a stagger) -> P -> shrm or f+P+K depending on stance.

b,f+K is a midkick sabaki, a nice anti-kage tool... wipes out those sidekick and K+G pokes (not 100% on the K+G but definitely the sidekick is sabaki-bait)

 

Re: Random Goh Gold

Amazing, U call it crap I call it Gold! /versus/images/icons/wink.gif Thank you <font color="orange"> CreeD</font color> . Thanks also for a cogent post on Lion this week that has your inimitable stamp of clarity on it.
Now let me pull my tongue out of your arse and ask a question. ;P
Do you have any thoughts on Goh versus a good Pai player.
Eric seem to do the forward cartwheel for interupt
on many of my range closing attempts to attack /versus/images/icons/frown.gif .
( shrug) head drops and he walks away from VF4EVO arcade machine to buy more tokens.. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif /versus/images/icons/confused.gif

 

Re: Random Goh Gold

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Eric seem to do the forward cartwheel for interupt
on many of my range closing attempts to attack

[/ QUOTE ]

According to our stats, kbcat and I are 50/50 against each other and we almost exclusively play Goh vs Pai, respectively. If Eric's using Pai f+K+G a lot, i'd start changing your timing for closing in that gap, blocking the f+K+G and throwing him - it's a throw counterable move. If he's using ff+K+G, then you gotta also start blocking that and making note of what he'll do next. If he does the TT K, you can easily block that and throw him there too. Use Goh's charge up with good timing, getting it to hit as Eric's f+K+G whiffs...

just thoughts.