VF4 Evolution Jeffry Thread

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Hmm, that's strange. His ff+P+K *seems* quite fast. And a quick look at 1/60 reveals this: (This is where you do your research first, Jeff )

<font color="white">
<font color="orange">ff+P+K </font color>(from 1/60)
Execution: 15 frames. No shit? Wow, that's his fastest move besides his high P and low P.
Block advantage: -5. No shit? Wow, it's completely uncounterable. Go figure.</font color>

Jeff, I'm not putting words into your mouth. I wasn't saying that you said he was weak. I am however disagreeing with your statements that his throwing game is weaker. But, no big deal, you can think what you want.

The facts are that Jeff has throws in 5 different directions (3 of which do over 60 points damage), he has 2 hit throws which do excellent damage (~ 70-90), and he has a surprise exchange (which, mind you, is best used as a ring out tool, not as a setup for b+P like VF4). I think these add to Jeff having a fantastic throwing game.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Not to be picky Llanfair... but Jeff has 3 hit throws

+++ (seems to to a crap load of damage - I'd say hit + throw is near 70pts. Yes, it is fast -- I took a couple rounds off of you by whipping that out in desperation when I had a sliver of life and you had nearly half a bar. As usual it still didn't win me the match in the end /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

++++ (throw + combo does at least 70pts)

+++ (the good ol' Toe Kick of Doom. easy 100 points for the hit + the throw).

And for the record I do consider hit throws part of the throwing game, and Jeff has the best of the bunch. Why? because two of hit throws only require any hit, not just a major counter, and his third one has the rare property of connecting when the move of blocked -- only Goh has a hit throw that shares this property... but his a step better in that it works on block or hit).


cheers,
kbcat.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Excuse me Llanfair...this is probably a stupid question...but if I don't ask then I'll probably never know...what is 1/60?

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

A great site with frame stats for Vf4 Evo. It's run by a guy who has a device (details not necessary) which allows him to monitor the inputs and outputs of the Naomi2 board. It's in japanese, but most people should be able to get by. Quite useful too.

You can find it here.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Llanfair:

Sweet, I didn't know it executed at 15 frames; I think the hit throw takes 65 points. That would be useful; wonder why more places don't list it as an upper class counter tool and why people don't use it much.

(Just to nit pick though, shot knee is elbow class--14 frames; is upper class--15 frames, and you can get a guaranteed combo off it).

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The facts are that Jeff has throws in 5 different directions (3 of which do over 60 points damage.),

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Interesting. What's the third throw that takes off 60 points that doesn't end in or ?


kbcat:

Well, I already stated my reasons why I don't consider hit throws part of a character's throwing game. Why would you? They don't execute at 8 frames, they don't beat standing guarding opponents (except Jeffry's stance hit throw), they don't by nature beat dodging, and they aren't escapable.

What's the difference between a hit throw and a regular attack with the exception that a hit throw has a throwing animation? Functionally, they are the same.


I suppose if you consider hit throws as part of a character's throwing game you can argue that Jeffry's throwing game got better...(maybe)...but...

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Well, I already stated my reasons why I don't consider hit throws part of a character's throwing game. Why would you?

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I do agree with all of your statements about the technical differences between normal throws and hit throws. But, I consider them part of the "throwing game" because I divide up the games on a mental level not on a technical level. Hit throws have the same mental affect on me as normal throws do -- I spend most of my time in VF trying to avoid being thrown. When I'm fighting Llan's Pai, or Jeff, there is nothing more demoralizing than being tagged with a throw -- because for the most part it's going to cost me nearly half of my life bar and there is little that can be done about it. Getting thrown is a terrible thing because you have a couple of seconds to reflect on your mistakes. The only thing that gets me down even more is being inashi-ed by Pai /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

Your definition of the throwiing game is a valid one, I just define it differently. VF is much more a mental/psychological game to me than a technical one.


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Just to nit pick though, shot knee is elbow class--14 frames; is upper class--15 frames, and you can get a guaranteed combo off it

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, the counter tables from arcadia. 1/60 has yet to have any frame data on the shot knee, but I'd agree with the range it's been put in at 14 frames. 1/60, however, lists the upper (df+P) at 16 frames, so there may be some leniency in the counter tables divisions. As to why people have not made a point of using the f+P+K as a counter tool? Beats me. There's a likely a massive list of stuff that's useful that doesn't get published by some japanese magazine. Who knows, perhaps you don't see it often in clips (the limited amount of Jeff clips) because those playing Jeff have a hard time connecting the hit throw? Who knows.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Interesting. What's the third throw that takes off 60 points that doesn't end in or ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just me not being clear I'm referring to 3 throws that do more than 60 points. Not 3 directions that more than 60 points...

I'm in the same camp as kbcat when it comes to classifying hit throws as part of a character's throw game. The animation of throws is something that can make them strong psychological weapons. I like how kbcat put it too, that during the animation of a throw you get time to reflect on what you've done wrong, etc. There a lot of merit to that.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Err...this is slightly off topic...I've been cruising the boards looking for an answer but to no avail...and I don't want to post a thread on it due to the host of people who will either flame me because it's "already been asked", or tell me lies because I don't know (hate that)...but here it goes.

Where the hell is Evo? Is it only overseas? I look online, and everyplace I look says that it's in the "test phases". First news of this phase was in June...and now it's November; that's one big ****in' test phase. I only hear people in other countries besides the U.S. giving personal accounts. When is this game gonna drop for real? And how soon after arcade release has Sega announced home conversions in the past...all these debates have actually gotten me anxious; I want to know if I should save my money and get another system.

Again...I apologize for this being off topic. Me being a "stranger", if I made a thread about this, somebody is bound to joke around like I'm stupid, and these questions have been burning inside of me. You guys have been the most helpful to me so far, so I feel comfortable asking here.

Now back to how to kick @$$ with Jeff.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Dude, you should check the Jamboree forum. /versus/images/icons/ooo.gif
EVO is officially out in the US. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif
It's a shame that LA and NYC haven't got it yet. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Evo is located in the following places:

1. Japan
2. Hong Kong
3. Singapore
4. Korea
5. Melbourne, Australia
6. Sydney, Australia
7. Altanta, GA?
8. Toronto, Ontario
9. Orlando, FLA
10. Tampa Bay, FLA
11. NYC (soon, afaik not setup yet)
12. Montreal, Quebec
13. Vancouver, BC

If I missed some...sorry.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Here is the layout of jeffreys throws,

-70 points, always gets broken
-65 points, but you get pounce guaranteed if you do it immediately. so it turns into a 90 point throw, but its always broken as well.

Now, Since and are always being broken, some jeffrey throws become obselete. The reason is that they dont do as much dmg as splash mountain and back breaker and they end in the same direction.

+, +, +, +

Now + is a different story, Doing the whole string (+ + + cause they can break the throw in the middle of the string) is worthless to try cause if they cant break throws, then you should hit them with back breaker which does more dmg.

+ + is much better as its more of a mix up and broken less, but for the dmg you get you might as well try +

+ is cool for one reason, the frame advantage given to you means you can use it to throw someone off. Follow it up with a knee, or another throw. but its not really valuable at high level play because it breaks the same way as back breaker.

So that leaves jeff with three throws to alternate with a diffrent direction from his most broken throws & . Please take this into consideration. Most characters after you take there main two big dmg throws with the exceptions of wolf and akira(and jeffrey of course). have throws in the 30-40 dmg range.

All of jeffreys third throws have the potential to go from 50-60 dmg and up.

First is +, Jeffs main third throw(the term third throw is something we use in florida to refer to the throw that uses a direction not being broken during e-dte)hits for 50dmg, no follow up but it leaves yous in a very good position, on your feet while the other guy is on the ground.

+ is a good third throw for jeffrey, cause if the opponent doesnt roll the right way, or roll fast enough, you get for free. While its not guarenteed, its not easy to get out of the stomp. So its something to go for. by itself the throw does 35 which is pretty good.

and last but not least is
+-This is where ring usage comes into play. Jeffs surprise exchange is the ultimate ring out tool and can get you many wins if the opponent doesnt break it when you are near the edge. If you throw someone in a wall with it, Jeffrey can shell out big dmg with knee or . And its in a direction thats hard to break .

Well thats how i look at jeff's throws. Hope this helps

Also I want to state that I think + is a worthless throw, and i only do it when I mess up. I think instead of making it do nothing in evo, they should have given jeffrey a 270 throw that ends in . But no, they made it do absolutely nothing.

Catch you all on the flip side.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Great analysis Jedi. That's how I utilized Jeff's throw game in VF4...and I see that it isn't extremely different in Evo.

What do you think about his new attack from threat stance (++, +). Seems awfully slow, but you can use the much quicker out of threat stance to make people hesitate to attack you while your in it, then break out + when you think they expect the quick kick. It's cool how you can go into threat stance from a couple of normal moves...definitely increases its effectiveness imho.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

That is version c. I dont know too much about it in evo. I dont think his throw game has changed other than he now hast two hit throws.

I havent played enough evo to comment on jeffreys new moves.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

I agree that both f+P+G and df+P+G are broken more often than any other throw - and that e-dte can really reduce their efffectiveness. However, when you mention e-dte, you're inherently referring to throwing someone after you've blocked a move of theirs. Well, that's a discussion of its own and we could hash out the point of throwing at all versus attacking for a while.

What's missing from this are when Jeff (or any character) is throwing offensively. Good example being: + --> throw. Now, there are few humans that can instinctively react to a low-P MC with a throw escape. Sure, any decent attack can interrupt the throw attempt as well, but in the heat of a battle this tactic is extremely effective. It's seen throughout the japanese clips, Korean clips, etc. We all do it and we all hate it to a certain degree. Sometimes, you get the escape, and that's great, but other times you don't and you eat the throw. Same thing goes for MC high P --> Throw. In this case, an attack will not interrupt the attack (for Jeff, he's at +9). Again, few humans can DTE upon reaction to a high P MC in a match.

So, what I'm getting at is usefulness. If you follow the cookie cutter way of playing, you'll get nowhere because your opponent will follow the same pattern. And this ties back to Blondie's percentage thread. Look, if you know that your opponent is E-DTEG at a specifed time, dash forward, High P and throw. More often than not, you will win out in that situation.

Jeff has some very damaging throws. Sure, they can be escaped. But if you're creative in when you throw (ie, don't follow the cookie cutter method) then you'll find you'll have more success, imo.

anyway...

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Your right llan, I was giving a defensive view on jeffreys throws, cause defense is such a big part of his game. Throws as an offensive weapon are important, but jeffrey doesnt have as many offensive throw setups as lets say ohhh, AKIRA lol. But yes when used offensively jeffreys throws are very dangerous. but because he has such a limited(not weak just limited)offensive setup game, it makes his offensive throwing not as strong as his defensive throwing, which he is really good at.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Yeah, totally. I agree with your defensive analysis. I'm a big fan of Jeff's offensive throwing, actually. And perhaps this is where the hit throws come into play. I love the TKoD and I can pull it off quite reliably (~70%) in a match. His toe kick is a great offensive tool as well and can be mixed up with other followups, not just the TKoD.

He has a new P+K,P move. The last P can be delayed quite a bit and it guarantees a throw on MC. Jeff can also still throw out of his df+P+KPP sequence. This one is much much riskier as the hits, if blocked, leave Jeff in a much disadvantaged position, but they're still useful to a certain extent. His ff+P+K hit throw is outright nasty. The ff+P+K is so fast and extremely useful. Not mention with the new PP and b+P+K entrances into threat stance, Jeff has some great new way to condition hi opponent into a potential blocked threat stance-P hit throw as well. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

The more you play Evo, the more I think you'll see how good Jeff's throwing is offensively. Defensively, your arguments ar sound, but I guess that's where the creativity is required for Jeff, as well as knowing your opponent. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Is this all going back to whether or not jeff has a decent/better/worse throwing game than before? If so I think you can ONLY look at defensive throws. If you're discussing the throw as an offensive surprise tool, then it doesn't matter WHICH throw you use... it's a surprise and won't be escaped (in theory) so jeffry might as well have only df, df....

I guess if you want to count intangibles or the little things, jeffry has
a. A throw whose motion causes a natural crouch dash forward
b. Another throw with a built in forward dash
c. The blocked P - hit throw which psyches people into guarding by its unusual animation
d. No really difficult or stick-dependent motions, i.e. 270's.
e. Ring reversing and wall throws aplenty.

A similar analysis of wolf puts him up there for offensive throwing skills... a catch throw with a built in run, one with a built in dodge, another with a built in backdash (ok that one's sort of lame).... a relatively quick f+P+G catch that is guaranteed after P MC, two long range catch 60 pt throws, one of which executes pretty quickly (giant swing) ....and all the usual good stuff like giant swing, a df,df throw, wall throws, and hit throws.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

I agree with your statements about Jeffry's offensive throwing ability; it's incredibly strong.

Personally, I think that when it comes to setting up throws with attacks (either hits or guarded), no one can compete with Jeffry. In Evo he's even more insane, and the new Threat Stance is out of control.

Spotlite

PS Sarah also has a hit-throw from guarded Flamingo K+G

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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Did you mean an attack will not interrupt the throw instead? I'm assuming you did by the +9 and DTE reference.

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Yeah, that's me typing dumb. Thanks for finding that.
As far as hit stun, etc is concerned. I was always under the impression that the frame advantage numbers had already taken this into account. I mean, isn't *block stun* already considered when you see the stats show that you're at -8 or more? Why would the frame stats consider the block stun frames but not consider the hit stun frames? I've always just done throws after MC right away and have never noticed that I needed to delay the throw. Likely what's happening is that I'm inputting my throw more then 8 frames, then...weird. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

cheers,