VF4 Evolution Jeffry Thread

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Here's my understanding of throwing in VF4 vs. throwing in previous versions of VF (specifically versus VF3).

Back in VF3 days, during the first 8 frames of stun you couldn't be thrown -- this was done because throws had no execution time -- they were instantaneous -- if this wasn't done then VF3 would have become a throw-fest.

It has always been my impression that the changes to throw dynamics in VF4 (i.e. throws having a 7 frames of execution 4 frames of collision) was done so that the 8 frame "no-throw" window could be removed. Since throws have a 7 frame execution and 4 frames of grip, with the throw starting the frame after grip connects, the earilest you could be thrown if you were stunned is 8 frames after the stun started. Beyond that, in VF4 your throw escape window is enlarged if you are thrown during recovery -- something that in my mind reinforces the notion that the 8 frame "no-throw" window has been removed.


anyway, that's what I have always thought.
kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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f you're discussing the throw as an offensive surprise tool, then it doesn't matter WHICH throw you use... it's a surprise and won't be escaped (in theory) so jeffry might as well have only df, df....

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After a night of fighting Llan's Jeff you'll believe he only has df,df,. Punch-Crucifix... Low Punch-Crucifix, Some Strange two hit that leaves me reeling backwards-Crucifix. Why in the hell can't I avoid that damn ground stomp?

kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Llanfair, concerning the TKoD, How often does the timing change.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Jedi - not sure what you mean...are you referring to timing changes if you MC with the toe kick as opposed to a normal hit?

If you get a toe kick MC, it's easier I find. But I think that's psychological. I do believe that the timing for the throw is the same and that it's guaranteed, like any hit throw. It has similar timing I find to Wolf's uf+P, f+P+G hit throw. GE does this from time to time and the throw comes out so late - late enough that it looks as though I'm starting my next move in retaliation but then all of a sudden Wolf warps in for the throw. Same thing for the TKoD...sometimes it looks as though the opponent has started their next move after getting hit with the toe kick and then *bam* out comes the crucifix.

Hope this helps...

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Quick question. Where did you get the +11 for Jeff's MC P -- do you have frame stats for every thing in EVO?


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

I was wondering that myself. 1/60 has it listed as +9 on MC. It seems as the initiative has been slightly reduced after a connected punch for most character's punches in EVO. Perhaps you were referring to version C?

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

I believe I misunderstood the context of your post Myke. You were referring to a specific situation in version C were MC P~throw will whiff if executed immediately. Right?? Sorry for the confusion. /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Ah... sou desu nee... That makes sense. Well, I'll give it a whirl myself and see what happens. Althoug, If you've tested it Myke I'm sure you've got it right. (You can tell me the sky is blue and you'd be right -- but, I still want to see for myself /versus/images/icons/smile.gif


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Not really replying to Myke (though I agree with the no-throw window thing), but a lot to reply to regarding Jeffry's throwing game--more than I have energy for. I will say two things:

First, I don't think it's helpful to make this distinction between an offensive and a defensive throwing game. On offense, one needs attacks to make a throwing game effective. I think what people really mean by a "good offensive throwing game" is a character's ability to set up the guessing game and deliver high damage, either through throws or through attacks--this is what I've been saying is Jeffry's strength all along.

But when you evaluate a character's throwing game, I believe you should only do so from the "defensive" view...i.e. when you are in a throw-counter-guaranteed situation and when you want to take the guaranteed throw opportunity. In this situation, there is no doubt Jeffry is weaker in Evo than he was in C.

The second tidbit I will leave is this: there is a section in the Perfect Guide that rates characters on several dimensions, like strength of attacks, combo ability, and...yes, you guessed it, throwing game.

Jeffry received 4 out of a possible 5 stars for his throwing game, but so did five others: Kage, Lion, Goh, Lau, and Aoi. You can even make a good argument that Akira should also have 4 stars for his throwing game.

So, for those of you who don't really follow my line of thinking about Jeffry's throwing game, there's at least the Perfect Guide's opinion to consider.

Again, nowhere did I say he was weak, boring, or whatever. Just two straightforward points: 1) his throwing game got worse in Evo, and 2) many characters now have a throwing game on par with Jeffry.

P.S. + takes 45 points damage in Evo, not 50.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Just wanted to add that according to the PG's point rankings that Jeff mentioned, in total points (with and without the "appeal" points) Jeffry comes out ahead of everyone else, in a class by himself.

Spotlite

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Hey Bryan, do you know what the fourth category is?

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

I'm pretty sure it's "ease of use". Jacky gets 5 stars, Pai and Jeff get 4, Akira, Goh and Vanessa get 1.

Spotlite

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Kage got a 4 star throwing game? I can see where Lion got dumbed down as + is gone, but Kage's got a really strong "+" which I've always considered a bit 'queer' as only 4 of the players have it. Lau's being weakened horribly.

Even thow Jeffr's hit throw is a 'hard' command, I still think his throwing game is better than Lion's. Just my opinion.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

LOL, GP, I think you think every character you don't play is strong, and every character you do play is weak.

BTW, Kage's + really does only take 40 points damage. He has two good throws and two OK throws (I never count + as every character's + throw is more or less the same, Shun being the exception). To me, this puts Kage's throwing game on par, if not better, than Jeffry's.

As for Lion, he has two good throws ( and ) and one decent throw ...this puts him perhaps a bit below Jeffry, but enough to get only 3 stars?

Also, 4 stars for Jeffry's attacks is a big exaggeration. My guess is that Perfect Guide is mixing damage potential (combo power is their category equivalent, I think) with effectiveness of attacks. Aside from DEU, Jeffry doesn't really have a good poking game. I would rate Jeffry's attacks as 2 stars and his damage potential/combo power at 5 stars.

Anyway, back to work. Long night tonight.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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Also, 4 stars for Jeffry's attacks is a big exaggeration. My guess is that Perfect Guide is mixing damage potential (combo power is their category equivalent, I think) with effectiveness of attacks. Aside from DEU, Jeffry doesn't really have a good poking game. I would rate Jeffry's attacks as 2 stars and his damage potential/combo power at 5 stars.

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I'd have to disagree. Jeff's poking game is excellent - better than it used to be that's for sure. What about his P+K,P? Or even his shot knee? How about his PP? His PK, delayed or not, with the new P is also a good poking tool. He has a ton of poking effectiveness, all of which are great for shutting down your opponent and leading into your throwing game. And, for those interested, 1/60 has the stats to back up Jeffry's poking game.

Jeff, do you *play* Jeffry at all? I can pick up my Perfect Guide as well, read it and make comments about other characters - but I don't - because I don't play them. I make comments about characters that I actually play. This way, I know what I'm talking about because I've had some experience with new moves, effectiveness, damage, etc. Not just some star layout at the back of the Perfect Guide character section.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Are you SERIOUS? Jeffry is my #2 character behind Kage (soon to be #3 maybe). I know him quite well, thank you. Surely there's no need for chest beating? I think those that have played my Jeffry will attest to its competency.

Sure, it would be better if I had the chance to play with you today and > > your Pai, but being in Singapore I'm closer to Tokyo.

I use the PG as context because it is a great platform for discussion. Don't you think it's a little strange to criticize my referencing the Perfect Guide (which I'm actually using to disagree with) when you're so dependent on a website maintained by a guy called Kazu?

Shot knee is NOT meant for poking, it should be used primarily as an mC tool or to interrupt if you feel confident. If you use this to poke...what can I say, your Jeffry is "different."

But that is nitpicking, as I will agree that Jeffry's attacks generally improved in Evo. Jeffry did lose a lot of range however and many of his important moves in Version B/C have been toned down.

Keep in mind that aside from P, LP, and shot knee all of Jeffry's attacks execute 15 frames or higher--this ALONE should prevent him from being considered as having an upper tier poking ability. (Subsequent canned attacks after the initial attack notwithstanding).

But OK, OK, I'll give Jeffry 3 stars intead of 2. I was wavering anyway. Hmm...still, 3 stars seems a little high. It's important to separate poking ability with damage potential and countering effectiveness as they all fall under different functional buckets.

Remember that everything is relative. Would you say Jeffry can poke as well as Pai, Lau, Jacky, Brad, Lei Fei, or etc. etc. etc.? Some things just don't make sense if you step back a little bit.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

ok...where to start?

Surely there's no need for chest beating?
Sure, it would be better if I had the chance to play with you today and > > your Pai, but being in Singapore I'm closer to Tokyo.

Apparently, you thought there was a need for chest beating?

Don't you think it's a little strange to criticize my referencing the Perfect Guide (which I'm actually using to disagree with) when you're so dependent on a website maintained by a guy called Kazu?

Uh, Jeff, I wasn't criticizing the PG. It's indeed a great reference. I was however, criticizing your opinions. From your previous posts, it sure as hell doesn;t look as though you play Jeffry. You comment on how you think his throw game has been weakened in Evo, you think his attacks deserve a 2/5, you think his hit throws aren't very useful, you make statements like "f+P+K is slow and has bad recovery" without doing any research. From all this, I find it quite surprising that you would *want* to play Jeffry - what on earth do you *like* about him?

As far as your comment regarding 1/60's webmaster, Kazu. I'm just not following you here. What's his name got to do with this? Were you looking for something to say to knock 1/60? I just don't understand your point with this statement. For the record, 1/60 has arguably provided the VF community with the most valuable information on Evo to date.

Shot knee is NOT meant for poking, it should be used primarily as an mC tool or to interrupt if you feel confident. If you use this to poke...what can I say, your Jeffry is "different."

Yeah, i guess we'd have different playing styles. To me, poking is a character's ability to maintain a decent attack flowchart, constantly using uncounterable moves in an attempt to put your opponent on the defensive. This hopefully leads to a guarding opponent and thus a setup for throwing, etc. So, when I mention shot knee, including this into a flow of uncounterable moves is quite good.

No comment from you regarding the other moves I mentioned as poking tools. Guess they're ok, then huh? Right. So, we can add some moves to Jeff's poking game than just DEU, can't we.

Would you say Jeffry can poke as well as Pai, Lau, Jacky, Brad, Lei Fei, or etc. etc. etc.?

Sure, why not? His low-P, like everyone's, is a 12 frame move. He has a number of uncounterable attacks that leave him at a favourable frame advantage. Yes, I would argue that he can poke with the best of them.

Anyway, I really don't see how this is benefitting anyone by us bickering about nothing, really.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Completely off topic, but
"Yeah, i guess we'd have different playing styles. To me, poking is a character's ability to maintain a decent attack flowchart, constantly using uncounterable moves in an attempt to put your opponent on the defensive. This hopefully leads to a guarding opponent and thus a setup for throwing, etc. So, when I mention shot knee, including this into a flow of uncounterable moves is quite good. " - This is the very basic mechanic of Tekken games..just interesting that I saw such a play style mentioned here