VF4 Evolution Jeffry Thread

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Hmm, the tone of your post was rather rude, so I hope you won't mind if I reciprocate.

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Apparently, you thought there was a need for chest beating?

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Any time someone uses the "You don't know how to play so I'm right you're wrong" argument, yeah, I usually see that as chest beating. Ironic too, coming from you. Let's not open that can of worms OK?

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You comment on how you think his throw game has been weakened in Evo

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My God. You know that I didn't respond to your ridiculous argument about hit throws being "psychologically like throws" because I was trying to be nice. (No offense kbcat--you expressed your opinions cordially and I hate to respond this way).

His throwing game got worse in Evo--FACT. And I don't count hit throws as part of a throwing game for reasons I've stated already.

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you think his attacks deserve a 2/5

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*Shrug*

Certainly you haven't said anything to make me change my mind. Jeffry a poking character like Lau, Jacky, Lei Fei, Brad, Sarah, or Pai? Ha.

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you think his hit throws aren't very useful

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Really? Where did I say that again?

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"f+P+K is slow and has bad recovery" without doing any research

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Right. Like how you said it was Jeffry's fastest attack aside from P and LP.

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As far as your comment regarding 1/60's webmaster, Kazu. I'm just not following you here.

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Sure, I'll explain. You criticize my referencing PG (the stars rating and all that); I find that odd considering you base your entire argument on a website maintained by a guy no one really knows. This guy is probably a very dedicated VF player, and most of his stuff is probably accurate...but, excuse me if I remain a little cautious. If a money-making venture with a sizable professional staff like PG is criticized for making little mistakes, one can only wonder about one guy doing this as a hobby.

Certainly I wouldn't be quoting his hobby like the Bible, or using it as the foundation of my Evo knowledge.

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So, when I mention shot knee, including this into a flow of uncounterable moves is quite good.

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Yeah....except for the fact that the shot knee is throw counterable. And the hammer after even more so.

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No comment from you regarding the other moves I mentioned as poking tools. Guess they're ok, then huh? Right. So, we can add some moves to Jeff's poking game than just DEU, can't we.

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Yeah, we CAN, but are they terribly useful? +, OK, I can accept that, but key only up close and when you have the advantage (hint: not a very common situation with Jeffry). , high high. Too easy to defeat. Ultimately, if you want to poke with Jeffry, it comes down to the DEU.

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Sure, why not? His low-P, like everyone's, is a 12 frame move.

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Research whiz, Lion has a 13 frame LP.

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He has a number of uncounterable attacks that leave him at a favourable frame advantage.

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Yeah? What move leaves him with an advantage on block aside from standing punch (and +, a guard break)?

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Yes, I would argue that he can poke with the best of them.

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Yeah? Shall we list his uncounterable moves faster than 15 frames (canned attacks after initial attack notwithstanding)?

P and LP. Nothing else.


Faster than 16 frames and uncounterable?

+, according to 1/60.


Faster than 17 frames and uncounterable?

This is where it gets a bit better:

+

according to 1/60


Anything slower, and it's pretty hard to use to poke against good opponents, unless the move has a special property like a sabaki, built-in evade, etc.


Now, why don't you try to do the same list for Sarah, Brad, Lau, etc. etc.? You play Pai right? So it shouldn't be against your philosophy to compare her poking game with Jeffry. Why don't you do some research, make this list, and tell me with a straight face that Jeffry's poking game is on par?

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Anyway, I really don't see how this is benefitting anyone by us bickering about nothing, really.

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You're right, which is why I found it a little odd that your response to my attempt at stimulating discussion so bickering-like.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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My God. You know that I didn't respond to your ridiculous argument about hit throws being "psychologically like throws" because I was trying to be nice. (No offense kbcat--you expressed your opinions cordially and I hate to respond this way).


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None taken. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. We don't have to agree.


kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Ok, a real jeffrey question, what is the timing on the new Hit throw +

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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Ok, a real jeffrey question, what is the timing on the new Hit throw +

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Hmm.. Describing hit-throw timing is difficult. But, I would say that it's almost right away. I think it's one of the easier hit-throws to do, once you realize that it's pretty much hit + then immediately go for + -- but at a lesiurely pace, not at break neck speed.

so +, a frame or two delay then +.



cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

hey cheerz ice, your post gave me alotta jeff info (and other facts i did'nt know)... despite being a cold come-back post... /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

btw, i don't think i saw your jeff last time u came to the UK, after reading this thread, i'm kindda scared of it now.. /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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I use the PG as context because it is a great platform for discussion. Don't you think it's a little strange to criticize my referencing the Perfect Guide (which I'm actually using to disagree with) when you're so dependent on a website maintained by a guy called Kazu?

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I find it amusing that a guy commonly referred to as Ass-9 is making fun of another guy's VF site because of his name.

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

speaking of 1/60th will it ever be translated?

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

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If ice-9's claim that Jeffrey's throwing game has become weaker in Evo is purely based off the fact that damages have been reduced, then yes, it's true.

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I'd have no trouble agreeing to this, however, I can't seem to find any major differences in his Evo and VerC differences. The following damages are taken from the Perfect Guide, as 1/60 has yet to included damages for Jeffry.

+
Evo: 35
VF4: 35

++
Evo: 45
VF4: 45

++
Evo: 50
VF4: 50

++
Some differences here.
Evo: 40 with the chance of 0 on timed tech roll.
VF4: 60 with the chance of only 40 on timed tech roll.

++
Some improvements here actually.
Evo: 25
VF4: 20

+,++
Evo: 15
VF4: 16

+,++,++
Evo: 30
VF4: 32

+,++
Evo: 35
VF4: 30

+,++,++
Evo: 35
VF4: 30

++
Evo: 65
VF4: 65

++
Evo: 35 - wall variation: 60
VF4: 35 - wall variation: 60

++
Evo: 50 - wall variation 1: 65, wall variation 2: 58
VF4: 50 - wall variation 1: 65, wall variation 2: 58

++
Evo: 70
VF4: 70

++
Evo: 60
VF4: 60

+++
Evo: 50
VF4: 50

+++
Evo: 65
VF4: 65

+++
Evo: 60
VF4: 60

So, from what I could see, the only differences in damage are that his b+P+G only does 40 and most people will tech it to 0 - but this opens up a great mind game, with lots of options, so I don't think that's a bad thing. His headbutt continuations now do 1 and 2 damage points less than they used. This isn't a huge concern, really. As a bonus, however, his knee variants to the headbutts do 5 more points of damage. Not a huge bonus either...but it's a increase nonetheless.

Every other throw of Jeffry's has had no change in the damage. So, I don't see this as being a basis for Jeffry having a weakened throw game.

However, I think that Jeff was making the point that other character's throw games have been increased while Jeffry has remained the same. In this case, sure, it's easy to see that other character's may have a throwing game on par to Jeffry's - which was Jeff's original comment. Whether you can expand that and say that Jeffry's throw game has weakened, I dunno, I know I don't think so, but that IMO.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Just a quick response to you Jeff, so that we're on the same page. I have no intentions of bickering with you - I'm sure we can discuss this like players with the interest of improving. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

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Yeah....except for the fact that the shot knee is throw counterable. And the hammer after even more so.

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1/60 has no frame stats for the shot knee yet. My initial comment with regards to it being stuck into a poking flow chart was just based on my impressions from toying with it in matches. However, the Perfect Guide doesn't have it listed as a throw counterable move in their versus section, on page 344. They have the followup punch as throw counterable, yes. Now, I know the Dorimaga counter tables list it as throw counterable. So, it may very well be. However, from experience, it doesn't seem to be thrown when I've used it, that's all. Perhaps further testing is a good idea...

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His throwing game got worse in Evo--FACT.

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I'd love to go into your reasons in more detail. You can see from my above post to Myke, that the damages for Jeffry's throw game(not including hit throws) has not changed for the most part. I agree that some throws may do so much damage in the obscure directions, but every character must face that to a certain extent. My point, with Jeffry's throwing game receiving little to no change from VersionC, how has it become weaker when no one complained about it being weaker before?

I can see where you're coming from - perhaps you're thinking that if an opponent consistently escapes and agaisnt Jeffry, then he's left with a 45 point throw (++), a 0 point throw (++), or a potentially 0 point throw from (++). And I agree that this doesn't make it too appealing. However, this is no different than VF4 Version C, with the exception that the ++ gave you a minimum 40 points.
No one had an issue with it before, so why is so bad now?

Anyway, just my thoughts...

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

It looks like what this boils down to is jeffry lost a 40 pt throw in evo... in which case I guess you could make a case for the throw game being weakened. But it's a 40 pt throw nobody used except for flukey wall situations anyway... as myke said you've got a half circle of options, plus neutral, bringing jeffry's 40+ pt throw options to 4 (if you count P+G and stomp as one, I find the stomp hits pretty reliably)

. Maybe this was the complaint of those who caused the change from C to evo - 5 'decent' throw directions is too difficult to worry about, nobody should get 5.

Then again maybe the change was just made because losing 40 points for no reason as you thrash around in the air looks lame /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Personally I hate to see the +, + hit throw gone in EVO...

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Yeah, it's a shame they're gone...they were kinda neat being a hit throw that could be escaped, as well.

cheers,

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

I'm doing my best for Aoi or Lion to get a + -- how goofy would that feel to escape?

 

Re: Some actual Evo jeffry information.

Cool, I appreciate your gesture.

I should have posted this a long time ago, but sometimes after work the last thing you want to do is type for any extended period of time.

Here’s a deeper explanation of just how Jeffry’s throwing game compares from Version C to Evo.

First, I personally only care about the “best†throw for a particular ending input. So with Jeffry and without wall or R.O. considerations, I will almost always do + if I wanted a throw that ended with . I don’t bother with his other throws ending in unless for wall, R.O. or positioning reasons.

In VF3, having a throw that has only one input might be a real competitive strength because you have to be fairly fast and precise, but with VF4’s extended throwing range, grip frames, and generous buffer window, the importance of having a one input throw is much decreased. Personally, I don’t have any problems missing guaranteed throw opportunities because of input requirements, so I always go for the best one. (ASSUMING the sticks are goodâ€â€big assumption).

Essentially, what I’m saying is I don’t care about Jeffry’s +, +, +, + or +, and I won’t bother talking about them here. If I want , I use +. If I want , I use +.


+

Version C: 65 points + guaranteed 15 points stomp = 80 points. Sweet!

Evolution: Just 65 points. Difference: (15)


+

Version C: 70 points base damage, but if this is all you expect from a Splash Mountain, then you’re not a very good Jeffry. If the opponent does nothing, tries to rise with an attack, or rolls to the side, + for an additional 25 points (even more on MC if the opponent tries to rise with an attack). The only way the opponent can avoid the flying butt stomp is to roll backwards, at which point a stomp is guaranteed for an additional 15 points. It’s a guessing game entirely in your favor, because there is no risk if you watch carefully. Thus in the long run I expect to get 70 points + 10 points (average of 25*0.5 and 15*0.5) = 80 points. Sweet!

Evolution: Just 70 points. Difference: (10)


+

Version C: 50 points. Unfortunately, you can’t apply the flying butt stomp guessing game as well to this throw, but if the opponent is careless it’s easy to get extra damage. But I’ll be conservative and just say that I’m happy with the 50 points.

Evolution: 45 points. Difference: (5)


+

Version C: 20 points on recovery, and you get a nitaku guessing game after. Not great, but not bad. Also, I should point out that the damage potential for this throw is better in Version C against the wall because you have .

Evolution: 0 points on recovery, but you still get the nitaku guessing game. Quite useful right? Well, it’s not useless, but think about what you’re giving up by using this throw. If you had used this throw from a +8 advantage, what you’ve essentially given up is +8 for whatever advantage you get from an opponent TR/QRing. Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me. Sure, when your opponent is good at dodge throw escaping this might be useful, but at that point I’d rather go for a delayed attack for the big guaranteed damage. Difference: (20)


+

Version C: 0 base damage points. However! Because Jeffry’s has such fantastic range, the opponent must struggle and guard to block the (or maybe squeeze in the dodge if very quick). Because the opponent is so busy struggling out of a potential , Jeffry can dash up close for a nitaku guessing game. So it’s (45 points with pounce), high throw, or knee. (Against average opponents it can be simplified to just or throw). When you think about the expected returns from this guessing game, it's pretty solid and I conservatively expect to get 30-50 points average over the long run from using the SE. And we haven’t even mentioned R.O. (from > +) and wall benefits!

Evolution: The has lost its range, so right away the guessing game is not as effective because the opponent is no longer under pressure and has plenty of time. So does Jeffry still have a nitaku opportunity after SE? Perhaps, but it’s nowhere near as good as it was before, and damage expectations from this throw over time has to be lower. In essence, it was the threat of Jeffry’s that allowed him to waltz up to the opponent and force a 50/50 guessing game; Jeffry loses that with the reduced range of his . SE is now mainly used for R.O. and wall, and even then, I hear it’s easier to struggle out of his DEU after a wall stun. I don’t have numbers, but in Evo, the advantage Jeffry gets after an SE is not much...+5 perhaps? Now what is your opportunity cost for using + instead of other things? When you think about it, most likely +8; not a good deal. Difference: Depends how good you are


I hope it is now clear why I consider Jeffry’s throwing game weaker, on both a stand-alone and a relative basis (though the latter would take another essay to prove). On a very conceptual level, you can argue that Jeffry has lost 10-15 points damage potential per throw in his transition into Evolution.

That's pretty serious.

Now, nowhere did I say he was weak, boring, blah blah blah. His strength, as I pointed out and which Myke articulated very nicely, is in his ability to set up and deliver big damage.

But make no mistake, his throwing game is worse.

 

low unblockable?

I read in another thread that Jeffry has a low unblockable in Evo. Is it (charge) "heavy low kick"? What's the response of a blocking opponent? Is the wind up really slow (i.e., low reversal fodder)?

I'm gonna play Evo for the first time in a couple of days and I need some cheese =]

grib.

 

Re: low unblockable?

Just dodge! It's fairly slow and isn't much use against experienced opponents. (It might be good against the wall though. Hmmm...SE > ? Could work well.)

 

Re: low unblockable?

>isn't much use against experienced opponents

sure, I guessed as much... I figure I'll get a few hits in out of surprise value. Abuse it while it lasts, that's my motto =]

I'll give SE -> a try... since I gather SE, isn't so hot any more...

grib.

 

Re: low unblockable?

The other bonus to this kick, if I'm looking at the right one, is that the opening animation is a lot like wolf's charged overhead smash. Jeffry looks like he's gonna crush your skull then does the low kick. Maybe mix with bf,f+P+K.

 

Re: low unblockable?

Llan uses this move occasionally, and there is no mistaking the fact that Jeff is going to low kick you -- but at the moment in TO we still get that dear-in-headlights effect when he uses it on us.


cheers,
kbcat