VF4 Evolution Kage Thread

Wow,thats sweet stuff.Thanks! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

[UK-Guy posting using The Wall's login]

Kage Evo (Last test version before 'final' jap version).

Right I've got more time now so here are some more impressions. Even though we brits only get to savour a test version at the mo, it still seems like virtually all the stuff mentioned in the various evo threads is in the game.

PPb+P
AFAIK is the same, you can still duck the b+P if you block the first two punches.

d+K+G
Definitely has more delay after the move, Sega probably did this because this move was barely throw-counterable in verB/C, and if you blocked the d+K+G from distance (i.e. Kage's toe barely scrapes your body) then it became uncounterable. Now it is at least P counterable.

DPK
Same except you have to input f,d,df+P+K. The modified command is a godsend because you can't really pull it off by accident, for example when you do the modified new from-crouch slap or a dash in df+P.

df+P / f+K+G / FC Knee / b,b+K+G / f+P
Same (yay!).

New Stuff
[BT] P+K+G / P+K+G_ (_ = hold buttons down)
Looks similar to Kages u+K move from the backturned position but seems faster and Kage jumps much higher generally always landing behind his opponent after b+K / b,b+P / b,b+K setups. Is useful after b,b+K+G because if it connects Kage has the advantage so it's a good time to initiate the move. If you are far away from your opponent you can do multiple [BT] P+K+G's which looks hilarious with Kage hopping backwards towards his opponent. I've heard that the b+K - [BT] P+K+G is a canned move now (it looks that way in the Sega evo presentation clip), but I haven't seen this in any final evo moves lists, and it certainly is the not the case in this test version.

If you hold P+K+G down than you end up in the Jumonji Stance, this is a good way of setting up for a [JM] P+K sabaki crumple combo. You could also do nothing to get the [JM] P reversal (BTW you still get a guaranteed DPK if you reverse a P) or hop over low moves with K+G for crumple combos. I don't think the B+K+G is counterable if you land behind your opponent, but I'm fairly certain that if you don't go into [JM] than you suffer slightly more delay, similar to your delay frames after a normal blocked elbow or elbow into [JM]. If you land infront of your opponent after the [BT] P+K+G than you are liable to get creamed in my oppinion, but I still don't think you have as much delay as after d+P+KK or df+K+G for example. So once again you new options can be:

[BT] P+K+G_ (land behind opponent in [JM] stance)
P+K (into df+K+G / ub+K+G / DP etc)
K+G (into PPb+PK / ub+K+G / P - d+P+KK etc)
[JM] neutral P reversal (into a 16frame or less move i.e. DPK / PPb+P / d+K+G / f+P+KK
[JM] d/u roll

Another cool thing you can do now is setup for multiple P+K+G attempts, for example:
b,b+P - [BT] P+K+G_ - [JM] roll - [BT] P+K+G...

Generally after the [JM] roll is a cool situation now because you have more options :
[JM] d/u roll - [BT]P+KK / [BT] PKG / [BT] d+K / [BT] P+K+G_ / [BT] P+G / [BT] arm movement...

df+K
Kage has lost his classic sidekick. It looks like Yoshimitsu's df+K sidekick from Tekken 3 now, except he changes stance after it is done. The biggest loss is the range. You could creep out of range from a low rising kick attempt and then stagger with the old sidekick, but this is harder to do now. You can still do d+P - b,b - df+K though. With the loss of Kage's old sidekick and the from-crouch slap Kage has lost some range in his attack potentional.

FC df+P
Erm doesn't seem like that big an addition IMO. Will float in a MC but it is a LOW float. You can combo with d+P+KK or DP in closed stance and ub+K+G in open stance. You may be able to do d+P - d+P+K etc, I'll try this out next time... One bonus may be the animation which makes it look like it will dduck under punches and stuff. I think the closest resemblane I can find is Pai's FC f+P move. That move floats on counter, is done from crouch and has similar range, although it floats much higher than Kage's FC df+P on counter.

K+GPP
Neat looking new canned combo. The first hit is a quite quick execution mid-kick, I didn't notice if it staggered. After that Kage follows with a high punch and then what looks like his new FC df+P mid-chop. I'm not sure if the second P is special high, but it certainly seems like you won't be able to d+P MC. The last P will hit like a the FC df+P on a normal hit, but on MC it causes a falling back stagger (like Wolfs MC df+P). I'm failry certain you can interupt the last punch with a well timed low jab. If the K+G hits than the second punch is guaranteed I reckon, it was never guarded against in this situation. You can add a fair bit of delay between all three inputs.

This move reminds me alot of Lau's df+KPP type setups. I messed about with it and think it def adds some spice to Kage's repetoire. Not sure about strenghs and weaknesses yet but here are some combat possibilities :

K+G (MC) - Throw/Attack guessing game (2-Taku)
K+GP (MC) - (2-Taku)
K+GP... (MC) - P (delay third canned P for stagger)
K+G... - PP (delay second P for a MC and thus guaranteed third punch
K+GP - uf+K+G / b,b df+K (beat the low jab ala Lau's df+KP - uf+P type flow chart)

The K+GPP can also be used for cool new combo possibilities :
TFT - d+P+K - P - K+GPP
[JM] K+G - K+GPP
K+GPP (Wall stagger hits) - df+K+G otb

[JM] K+G / K+G_
If you hold down K+G you exit the stance ala holding P+K. Not only does this enhance combo potential after a successful crumple hit, it also gives you a neat guessing game situation with your opponent, for example:

[JM] K+G guarded against
[JM] K+G - P+K (opponent goes for an attack or throw)
[JM] K+G_ - u/d P+K+G (use the dodge attack to beat an attack/throw from opponent
[JM] K+G - K+G (beat low attacks)
[JM] K+G - throw (opponent may wait for your dodge attack or something)

Because you can exit [JM] after K+G_ you can pull of some neat combos, for example:

[JM] K+G_ crumple combos
[JM] K+G_ - P - d+P+KK
[JM] K+G_ - K+GPP
[JM] K+G_ - PPb+PK

Although I haven't tried it yet I reckon you could do P - f,f+P+K+G for ringout. I'm also gonna try P - f+K+G - DP and DPK /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

You can aslo exit [JM] after f+K_, uf+P+G_ and P+K_

[JM] BT moves
Although I tried the new [BT] [JM[ attacks I didn't mess about with them too much, I'll mess around further and post my impressions.

[JM] G
The G cancel definitely has more delay, similar to verB. I think they did this because of the [JM] P+K+G _ [JM] G cancel combos. For example against Aoi in closed stance you could [JM] P+K+G - [JM] f,f - [JM] G - f+K+G - P - f+K+G - ub+K+G for awesome damage and massive ring out distance, rememeber the reverse pushes Aoi back quite far, than a dash followed by the guaranteed combo could push her out of the ring from over center stage distance! Sadly you can't do this anymore because of the added delay frames in [JM] G. However it's not that big a loss because you can hold buttons down to cacel the [JM] after more moves now.

f,f+P+K
I heard this move has become half-circular now and can be dodged if you guess correctly. I did'nt get a chance to test this, but if correct I'll be pissed because Kage is only left with f,f+K or [JM] d+K as his circualar moves. Also the slower [JM] G could mean more danger if your f,f+P+K is guaraded against.

b,d+P+G wall throw
Looks cool and does awesome damage. Kage runs up the wall for leverage and than kinda DDT's the opponent into the floor

Well that's about all I can remember. Once again it is a test version, but I think all of Kage changes are in place and I honestly don't think there will be that many changes between him in the test and final version, although I don't think that is the case for the likes of Akira, Aoi and Jacky...

More to come...

 

Probably well known but have to add that Kage's dodge attack is a helluva lot weaker. No longer has the same speed or priority. I think all the dodge moves (or the better ones?) have been toned down in evo, that include recovery times too.

Oh [JM] K+G - DPK does not connect sadly, but I think K+GPP or db+PPb+PK (upto MW?) are now the defacto combo follow-ups.

Also I see Kage's new uppercut thingie FC,df+P - d+P+K,K alot in the movies but you can do ub+K+G instead in open-stance for a bit more damage. Still now way does that compensate for losing the old-slap, AM2's ass-raping of Kage continues...

Lastly anymore magazine scans planned people, the last bunch were very helpful

Peace

 

... am I missing something? that new FC upper looks 10x more useful than his old one. I practiced combos with the old one extensively and a LOT of shit missed due to range, he knocks them so far. Plus you're required to hold F when you punch, not a big deal but closer = better.
Or does the FC upper somehow not always knock down or something? Is that why it sucks? Or do you mean the lack of range on it?

 

I've not really played Kage extensively in either version, but many of my friends have. It's basically the contingency that he was the least affected (new moves, or stronger or weaker) in the entire game. I've noticed nothing different about his evasive attack, but I must say -- it was used way to much in the Ver C. Vs. Kage matches got really boring really fast.

 

Main thing about the old chop that it was a safe move from far and leaves you out of throw range when executed from distance.

 

Yes, his old chop was much, much better. His old chop had far better range and always knocked down. With that chop, it's possible to play Kage semi-machi, wait for the opponent to whiff, and then chop. While it's true it's difficult to extract maximum combo damage from Kage's old chop, it can definitely be learned. (There are four basic situations requiring different combos for better damage: normal parallel, normal eight, MC parallel, and MC eight. This gets worse when you consider how it differs with each character/weight class/Shun. But really dedicated Kage players would be able to maximize this move.)

If you read what was already posted on this thread /versus/images/icons/wink.gif /versus/images/icons/wink.gif , you would have realized that yes, the new upper only knocks down on MC. Moreover, combo potential is not plentiful due to the low float. Unlike the old chop, the new upper looks throw counterable (or at least near throw counterable), but it also probably executes at 14 frames.


If you ask me, the reason why Kages in those clips seem to be using this move a lot is because 1) it's a new move, and 2) there is less risk of accidentally getting the DPK.

 

I disagree w/ the last part --- I don't think it's b/c it's a new move. I think they're using it b/c it's actually a pretty good move.

I think if you come back and go to a lot of game centers, you won't see anyone using a move b/c it's new (unless they're trying the character out) - especially on a vid. How often do you see any of Shun's new moves?

For what it's wroth, I don't think they evened Kage out w/ getting rid of the chop, and he's got a nice edge w/ his evasive attack and .

 

I agree with Ice. You had to pay attention to stance and stuff but once you were paying attention you could pull off the combos pretty well. + - - ++ was and very useful combo on MC. I think difficulty lie in knowing what combos worked on what characters AND in which stance and type of hit. It's not like + - - ++ which you know will connect virtually always.

And like Ice said it knocked down and was uncounterable, but for me the big thig was good execution speed and RANGE. Oh well it will be missed...

 

Quick Questions...

I've heard that slam hits can be TRed in certain situations now, aslo I've seen a movie where Goh TR's after being crumbled by a MC Wolf Knee, so...

Does that mean combos Like Kages TFT enders with ++ are TR?, meaning you can TR after the ++ 'slam' so follow-ups (i.e. ++) can be avoided?

I've seen TR after Akira's new 3 hit, is this also the case with Jeffrys ++ and Wolfs + in floats?

Also the 'late' TR after a crumple hit, can you do this if your opponent does not do an immediate move like a combo or ground throw (in Wolfs case)? Is it simply a case of inputting your TR and hoping your opponent is late in timing their combo?

Lastly is it possible to do multiple ground throw escapes?

err hope this makes sense...

 

Well, it's a new move that's easy to use--how about that? It basically functions like Jacky's and Vanessa's . I'm not saying the new upper is pathetic, it certainly has its uses.

Mo: I don't think you can double throw escape ground throws--only one. So it seems like a three way guessing game: +, +, and big down attack?

 

Thank you for the move analysis.

And fuck you for nitpicking, there are like 20-25 posts above this, and I don't even play kage /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/wink.gif /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif
Well, in any case, kage's best chop combo was something like 60 points, I doubt anyone could base a machi game around it. I personally will like something more reliable, something that doesn't end in horrifying whiffed DP's and kickflips. All the usual disclaimers about your opinion may vary blah blah blah apply.

 

And fuck you for nitpicking, there are like 20-25 posts above this, and I don't even play kage

Heh heh, no problem, just wanted to show it could happen to the best of us.

Well, in any case, kage's best chop combo was something like 60 points, I doubt anyone could base a machi game around it.

I thought Nam from NJ/NY used this move pretty well. You should play him when you get the chance to see how effective this move can be. It can almost be used as a poor ninja's version of a doublepalm.

 

dont you mean his d+k+g? LOL /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

OK, I take back the thing about the new upper being near throw counterable. (I got sick of missing out on all these Evo movies and am now at an Internet cafe downloading like mad.)

In those Temuzin matches I downloaded, opponents rarely attempted to throw after blocking the new upper, leading me to believe it has pretty good recovery. Anyway, Jacky's upper recovers at -3 frames (I think, somewhere around there); perhaps Kage's is similar?

Anyway, this should be easily testable.

 

yeah, that move is not throw counter-able. I think it's recovery is probably as you guessed. It isn't on the counter tables printed by Arcadia and DoRiMaGa. I got nailed trying to counter that move.

It reminds me of d/f+P, another float starter for Kage with no consequences /versus/images/icons/wink.gif.

Spotlite

 

Don't know -- the few times I've actually blocked the move and not gotten wiped out, I got a threw in -- maybe he was expecting an attack and tried to dodge.

I would expect it to be throw-counterable, but there are other moves in the game that need to be -- namely Jacky's 3-punch move that guarantees a stomp if the last one hits.

 

Jackys 3 point attack can be ducked, like ducking the palm in Lau's elbow palm, so you shouldn't try to guard it I suppose.

I think Jacky's + is a pain because it staggers and you have to struggle quite quickly to avoid the +, and if you do struggle it's hard to react if Jacky decided to throw instead! I'd like to see that move throw-counterable /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Spotlite where are the counter tales you mentioned please? Is the full frame data available for Evo?

 

I'm going to be putting up the counter tables in the next couple of days, as soon as I get settled. I still haven't unpacked yet, and today's my first day back at work.

Spotlite