VF4 Kage's elbow

Kage

Well I've played the ninja for a while with some success, here are some thoughts on some of his moves.

P
As fast as ever and obviously his main poke tool. However alot of his punch counters have gone because more moves are now uncounterable. His MC jab doesn't seem to stun as much as some characters.

d/b+P+K
Apparently this is a mid punch reversal. Dai doesn't think it can reverse elbows, so I'm guessing b+P+K is for jabs etc, and d/b+P+K is for mid punches like Kages DP or Akiras single palm. Hopefully someone can clarify, or I'll try to find out soon.

d/b+P
Apparently if you hold punch you should go into the stance, but this has never worked for me. Is this a mistake or test version only?

d/b+K
Still a useful low kick, especially after a blocked elbow or against rising kicks and tech rolls. But as always overuse will lead to Kage getting raped.

u/f+P
Not as useful anymore because d/f+K+G/ f,f+K+G etc can be tech rolled. Should still connect if the u/f+P causes a wall hit.

Elbow
His best weapon in nearly all past VF's has changed in a big way. First up it looks very different. Kage kinda leans into his elbow as he pushes forward, this means the elbow has longer range (think Lion) but slower execution. It's uncounterable if blocked but as always you are at a disadvantage. It seems IMO if you stagger someone when close in open stance (boths fightesr front feet are touching), than because of the way Kage moves forward now you don't have to dash forward to throw, just execute TFT and it will grab. However closed stance elbow stagger still needs a dash throw. MCing with the elbow gives a loud sound and a yellow light flash, which gives you a very good advantage. However because the elbow is slower, it is harder (or impossible) to stagger most low blocked kicks unlike VF3. Shinsodan away will still avoid most attacks like elbows, knees, throw attempts if you are getting punished after blocked elbows. Crouch dashing backwards elbow is good now because of the extra range, especially against low jabbers. To tell you the truth you'll win more games if you know what to do after a elbow hit, and also importantly an elbow blocked.

d/f+P
Properties have changed and now it always knocks down and floats high enough for combos. PPb+PK is doable on light characters. PKG, u/b+K+G is an alternative against heavies. A good move but it's slow execution is limiting. Compared to some of Lau's 3 to 4 new punch strikes that float/keel you over into UpKnPPPPd+K it's pants, but it's a handy float starter to have at the ninjas disposal. You can use it against certain attacks. If Lion does f+PP you can block the first elbow then d/f+P will dodge then hit the second lunging punch for MC damage and float!!

d+P+K (,K)
Another old move with new properties. Staggers (although it seems different to the elbow stagger) and stuns in a big way on MC. The canned kick will always connect in stagger or MC situation. Also the canned kick can be delayed for a quite a while, but this is a risky tactic if blocked. This is a good move against blocked sweeps like a d+K+G from Aoi.

d+K+G
No f,f+K damage is a pain, but you can crouch dash backwards d+K+G which is a little bonus. Also seens to be uncounterable so try and workout what your opponent will attempt after a blocked d+K+G to minimise your disadvantage. Forward dash d+K+G is good against agreesive players who shake out of elbow stagger and try to attack/duck.

f,f+K
You can now cancel this with gaurd, and you end up with your back to the opponent for a split second before turning around. In the back turned state you can buffer in any TT move. Useful to setup u+P+G against out of range tech roll attacks or for TT P+K, K combo setups. TT P+K, K, cd Knee otb is very funny. .

TT P+K, K
A mid move attck from back turn, kinda useful. The canned kick causes a very high 'leg-flip' animation (think Jackys or Sarahs u/b+K+G), follow up with cd Knee - d/f+K+G - u/f+K+G. You have to delay the knee for quite a while BTW, Ryan Hart did this cheeky variation: TT P+K, K, K,G, cd knee, the kick cancel still allows plenty of time for the knee to connect.

u/f+K
Slower and higher that the VF3 version, but still his best unreversible 'get out of trouble' move. Stops in your face types who like to jab rush and stuff. Sadly the float possibilites on MC have gone since VF3, people can normally always TRoll out of follow ups like DP. However the move is good against TRoll, your u/f+K will beat nearly any attack attempted from a tech roll, so it has it's uses.

b,b+K+G
Much slower now, and so even easier to block on sight. Can do some cool combos with it, but all the best ones can be avoided with TR.

u/f+K+G
Basically the sames as VF3 but you can dish out more damage because d+P, DP nearly always connects. u/f+K+G, d/b+PKG, u/b+K+G is quite cool looking, but VERY difficult (MC?).

d,d/f,f+K
His charge attack. Wolf gets a cool shoulder and Lau can charge the Palm. Kage gets this Yoshimitsu rip-off. Still it ducks most high and mid moves, and it can lead to juggle combos.

Stance moves
To be honest I'm not to impressed with Kages stance stuff. It just doesn't seem to be as useful as stance moves that Jacky, Sarah and Lei have. Myke would probably disagree. The Sabaki is good against people who automatically jam buttons when they see the stance. The roll is good because it gets you out of harms way fast, and the majority of the time you end up back-turned so you can attack with TT P+K/u+P+G. Elbow into stance hasn't been much use for me in challenge situations. People reckon you can do elbow-stance and anyone who tries to jab you will get a stance reverse, this is not true. If someone doesn't do their jab immediatley then yes, but not if someone jams jab immediately, you will get hit. If you do manage to elbow stagger with the stance, then the catch throw is a good follow-up.

Running slide
No where near as usefull as VF3, but you can DP otb if it connects.

TT u+P+G, P+K
Basically if the u+P+G attempt whiffs then Kage does a canned TT swipe. Basically never do the u+P+G without the second command!

d or u P+K+G
His dodge is quite good at going around rising attacks and staggers crouchers for dash in throw etc. Also knocks you quite a fair bit away on a MC. It's possible to ring out people in this way by judging your dodge attack axis. I think you can be thrown if it is blocked.

Shinsodan
Much easier to hit the rolls now but you can get plenty of otb hits if you MC someone, I've seens the rolls bounce someone across the floor about 5 times near a wall! People still fall for a couple of rolls into a DP, some things never change Kages backwards shinsodan is as useful as ever. Use it after blocked elbows, sidekicks, d+P+K etc to get out of trouble in most situations. Also after someone throw reverses your TFT!

b,f+KK, f,b+KK
New jumping kicks into sweeps that are usefull against low attacks I suppose. Unfortnately the hop part isn't as instant as an u/f+P or u/f+K+G because Kage kind stands around for a while before hopping so you have to guess early and do the move before a low attack. I think the 1st kick can force opponents into a new 'forced stagger' but will have to experiment more with these moves. They are flashy but SLOW in execution. I think the b,f+K ends in back turn and f,b+K does not

f+K+G
A strange forward cartwheel kick, it looks flash in combos (TFT, Knee, P, f+K+G, DP), but doesn't seem to be as useful in combat as yet. Personally I think P, d+P+K and elbow are better moves to attack whilst advancing

b+K,K,K
Weird new kicks that attack varying heights. Cos it's a new move, people find it harder to block the sequence at the moment, so a couple of cheeky low hits connect. The kicks can also be delayed quite a bit. The first b+K kinda has some evading properties, Kage kinda leans away before the first kick which can 'dodge-hit' some moves like low jabs, if timed well. In fact this move has been described as a 'low jab-killer', and the second kick always hits if you manage to MC with the first kick against low punches. Be warned though that after the first and second kick you recover with back turned, and the third kick leaves you delayed for a while so opponents can dash in and throw/counter. Apart form that nothing to amazing to promote.

f+P+G
Not as useful as VF3 cos of the flat terrain, and because Kage has a bit more delay (or opponents recover quicker!). DP, K seems like the only worthwhile damage move, although Aoi can still reverse it. u/f+K+G gives a new reverse leg flip animation (think Lion hitting d/f+PP after d/f+P+G if you've seen it in VF4) which can lead to f,f+K or even high stomp!, but if the opponent holds block they will automatically turn and block, and people can TT jab interupt you. Opponents can dodge d/f+K+G or kick flips can hit it ala VF3. Nothing is garaunteed after u/f+K (unless near a wall) so don't bother. This throw can set up some cool wall combo's

b+P+G, TFT combos
Moves like b+PK and d+P+K can lead to good float combos if you can't do the knee properly. The knee float is now much stricter and you have to buffer it in quicker. A fast, clean buffered knee will lead to a decent float. Kages most damaging standard float upto midweights is probably TFT, Knee, P, d/b+PPb+PK, this is Kyasao's main combo. The knee no longer floats anywhere near far enough so TFT, Knee, DP or u/b+K+G is now possible (in case you've fluffed the perfect knee). Basically TFT combos float nowhere near as far, and you can no longer tak on running slide for extra damage and distance. The wall combos in VF3 no longer work (or have to be timed differently) so experiment.

DP, K
Always tag the kick on the end if you're going for a clean hit. The DP is also Kages best otb move for wall combos. Basically moves like d+K+G, u/f+K, f+P+G combos and TFT combos near walls will cause wall hits and staggers allowing for extra hits, especially on the bounce because you can't tech roll most of the time. Also high stomps have a better chance of hitting after a wall hit. So basically hit opponents against a wall and then tak on an otb DP for a cheeky hit. u/b+K+G is also doable otb but connects less than the DP. TFT near wall u/b+K+G, u/b+K+G is said to be doable near wall.

f,f+K+G/ f,f+P+K+G
The same old moves unchanged really since VF2. People still seem to think only using these two moves and mixing them up is a good tactic. Basically some Kage players haven't learnt anything since VF2. Another interesting tid-bit, it is possible to tech-roll f,f+P+K+G and hit Kage before he has recovered in some situations!! I was playing Dai and hit him near a walled corner, he TRed with Jeffry into knee combo!!

The frames on rising attacks has gone to pot. Some character specific rising kicks are more likely to lead to a throw/counter opportunity (Akira?) than others. I think a straight on the spot rising sweep or kick will allow a low/high throw, elbow stagger etc. But if you roll to the side side or delay the kicks etc, than this is no longer the case. Basically force the guessing game and don't be shocked when your punch counter/elbow is blocked or your throw attempt is thwarted. I've seen alot of players high throw after a blocked rising sweep, because of the Tekken style throw animation ducked people can actually stand into a throw because the throw 'stays out' longer.

Well the general concensus is that Kage has been weakened quite a bit from VF3, but then he always was a bit of an easy but powerful character. You'll have to play him with a bit more skill now to get wins. I've got a lot more catching up to do, but then what else is knew.

Some other stuff I've noted about characters:

Lau:
Still a monster, and seems to be a more rounded fighter in VF4. If you block a d+K+G type sweep u/f+K UpKnPPPd+K connects!! (have to be quick but why bother with elbow stagger ever again? heh, heh). Delayed elbow-palm works well against skilled elbow-palm duckers. P+K evades moves beautifully, block 1 Akira DE then P+K will avoid and strike the next. Lau has this great new punch that hits low jabs and can force-crouch for elbow stagger, u/k+K etc. His d+K,G works well in coaxing people into ducking or guarding. Hatim uses PPP,G, d+K,G, roundhouse to punish people crouch blocking for the sweep. PKG used cd d+K,G throw, this works well with Akira too. Hatim messed about with his 'running-up-the-wall-then-landing-behind-anyone-behind-him' move which was very funny! PKG has started playing with him too and as always his syle of play is very flashy and hence crowd pleasing.

Akira:
Dai did an interetsting combo with him: Pull in throw~bodycheck, d/f+P+K+G, f+P, AS3 or DLC. b,f+P+G, AS3 near wall looks cool! After Akiras dodge move connects you can tack on a low kick otb. SDE MC Yoho/Shrm DLC is damaging! Shrm, Shrm, DLC is one for Akira experts. MC DE super-delayed-bodycheck can take halfbar+ f+P+G, b,f+P, DLC is very hard to struggle out of. However Akira seems to have suffered the most in terms of the new 'priority' system. Alot of his moves are easier to stop like the various elbows. Also if Akira low jabs you, YOU can low jab MC his Shrm, I saw this done 3 times in a row (the last jab being for the match heh heh). Also how do you cancel Akira's b,f,f+P+K? I've seen an Akira cancel bodycheck over a downed opponent (to go over there body to the other side after d/f+P+G) then SDE in opposite direction! Details please...

Jacky:
Still as jerky as ever. P+K,P,d/b+K delayed K, d/f+K takes energy! d/f+PPP stomp takes energy! P+K,P,K wall hit stomp takes...you get the picture. Has a tons of new moves, stances and his old moves haven't been toned down too much. Ryan got about 59 wins with him (the highest recorded on our VF4 machine). PKG also does some flash shit with the guy. I'll probably go into him in more detail in the future because he has too much going for him, Def top tier!

Jeffry:
Man when Dai uses him it's a nightmare!! d+P splash mountain has insane range and Jeffs low punch stuns BIG. His f,f+P,P can be delayed in a big way. He has a host of moves that hit you into a crouch for low throws, stun you for high throws, or just set up damaging combos. f+P+K MC d/f+P+K+G is one. d+K+G MC stomp is annoying as hell but so effective. Apparently b+P+G can throw people out of the ring over low walls? Haven't seen it yet but have seen a wall hit with it. Dodge splash mountain or knee combo is devastating now because the dodge is so much better than VF3, if timed right!. There is just so much that Jeff can do now, I'll see if I can leech some info out of Dai on some of his best new stuff.

Wolf:
Hatim started using him and has kinda demonstrated how to play him to people in the last few days (*cough*The Wall/ Jefhan*cough*). b,f+P+Kx2 then skillfully low throwing tech roll was impressive. b,d+K high stomp is effective. d/b+P stagger, b+P stagger swing-round is a nasty sequence. His kick into throw (mid kick into 'steiner'?) is deadly. AND to top it off he has some nasty unblockables. This paragraph just scratches the surface on Wolf's capabilities, I'm not in any way an expert on him, so I'll let others fill you in on him if they want.
BTW Does anyone know how to cancel Wolfs dodge P+K+G? I've seen it cancelled into different throws but don't know the command.

Lion:
Sadly Derreks MANTIS! MANTIS! MANTIS! Lion has shown that the character can be annoying as ever. If only Derrek played as well as he talked we could have a European Chibita. Still if there was a loud mouth contest it'd be no contest. MANTIS FIST!! takes the gold medal. BTW Hyun should have tapes with some great matches between the likes of Ryan, Jason, PKG, Mohammed, Hatim...amd some Derrek 'commentary'. But you can't knock the guys enthusiasm, and he does crack everyone up. Oh, I've managed to throw Lions f,f+P before it connects, rather like throwing Akiras bodycheck part of the DLC in VF3.

Shun:
Err...no ones played him, but check out the Dragon JiJi Shun versus Segul Wolf movies to see some great stuff with the drunken man, and Wolf!

Aoi:
Sorry no ones really played her either

Vanessa:
Dai plays her...and well!! Her MC low kick, double punch stomp combo is damaging as is her bounce combos in her stance. She has some great MC stun punches into low throws, as well as some great stun kicks into high throws. She has a variety of charging in attacks and her leaping body tackle catch throw can grab moves out of the air!! I've seen it catch Pai's f,f+K+G. I think we're thankfull that Dai plays her because we can learn how to fight her quicker, and he has demonstrated her to be very powerfull. However she is more of a heavy blows character, not super quick jabs etc like the other female characters Pai, Sarah etc.

Pai:
Sadly no ones really got to grips with her yet. Jefhan does some good stuff with her and Mohammed has experimented. Try the tbzone movies as they have some good Pai play on them.

Sarah:
She's a bitch, but that's enough about Jason. But seriously Jason has started abusing her in VF4 and she can be a handfull. d+K+G MC into low kicks or high stomp is useful. Her stance kicks can be mixed into varying heights and speeds which can frustrate. d/b+K, d/f+P, K, u/b+K is damage!! works on EVERYONE in ANY SITUATION. Still has lightning jabs, d+K is quick, easy and uncounterable. dodge d+P+K,K combos work a treat and even though some moves for characters have lost some priority, her kick flip can still interupt, inflict damage and turn around a match. She may not have gained as many new moves as some characters but everthing she has is solid...bitch.

Lei:
And if that isn't bad enough Jason has started to use the monkey...sorry monk aswell. So what can I say about the monk...well try to find the movie featuring Heruru Lei versus Yamiyodare ('Iron Elbow') Jacky. It was some final of a test VF4 tourney and Heruru RAPED Yamiyodare. Now this Jacky player isn't rubbish, heck he beat Kyasao in the same tourney and is one of the best Jacky's in Japan, but he got banged up. Oh and look at the stats for Heruru; 935 wins, 46 loss, 95% win rate and on a TEST version...that gives him a better percentage than Chibita. The monk in the right hands looks like a an animal, but thanfully no one has mastered him...yet...

Oh, and lastly have you noticed that when you are staggered you can get different coloured joystick wiggles? Well basically a green joystick means you cannot shake out of the stagger, but when the green turns to a red joystick you can start shaking and mashing buttons to lessen the stagger.

Lastly thanks to all the players mentioned, but most of all Dai for translating the Jap stuff.


L8RS...sawry abowt deh spellin...oh, and comments welcome.

 

> d/b+P+K Apparently this is a mid punch reversal.

Yes, reverses single fisted mid punches. It's the same reversal, but you have to choose the appropriate hit level now. It's the same way for everyone, because it's all standardized now: b+P+K for high moves, db+P+K for mid moves, d+P+K for low moves. F'rinstance Akira has to reverse Jacky's punt kick with db+P+K, and so on.

> u/f+P Not as useful anymore

Like it was ever useful..ssnnghhhkk

>TT u+P+G, P+K Basically if the u+P+G attempt whiffs then Kage does a canned TT swipe.

You only need to enter P+G,P. The TT P will stagger crouchers, too.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Mo, thanks for the friggin awesome post and the Kage report! It's a relief to see that you came to the same conclusions that I had made from my run on the test version in HK.

I've seen alot of players high throw after a blocked rising sweep, because of the Tekken style throw animation ducked people can actually stand into a throw because the throw 'stays out' longer.

Hahaha! This is exactly what I had speculated; I had a feeling throws would be compensated for somehow, and the fuzzy guarding type of defense from VF3 is just too good/frustrating against people who don't know how to deal with it.

 

Other tidbits that I failed to mention

D,d/f+P can stagger now as do his TT P+K and u+P+G,P swipes (thanks Rich).

TT sweep allows for DP otb

d/f+P recovers low so you can get elbow staggered during and after execution, or low thrown. d/f+P, PPPb+K, DP works on all characters near a wall, but could be tech rollable.

Lastly Kage has a move listed as P+K~K, he kinda goes into stance before running in a high jump kick. Is there an exact timing way of executing the move or it like doing an Akira knee, i.e P+K, release K?

cheers

 

> u+P+G,P swipes (thanks Rich).

Aaiieeee....it's just P+G. No u+ necessary.

> d/f+P recovers low so you can get elbow staggered during and after execution, or low thrown.

Welp, no change from VF3 there. Fine by me. People never learned that.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

sorry P+G,P then!!

any info on the P+K~K?

 

Can't help there, I don't see it anywhere, actually.

I do think the confusion with the db+P swipe into JM is just a translation error. I think people were misreading or misinterpreting the comments on the move to mean that it goes into JM stance, when all the comments meant was that it can be used in place of a normal P for any of his Px strings.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

regarding the wolf dodge throw,

I don't think you can have to cancel it right? just dodge and do another throw. The new wolf throw, u,b,d,f+P+G is good for this kind of stuff. just hit up for the dodge and do a giant swing, you will get a dodge and the new throw.

 

Wolf's dodging throws

I think what uk-guy is referring to is when people use what seems to be u|d,P+K+G and then you see a side throw, back throw, etc. I don't think there's any cancelling happening here. I've noticed that if you do Wolf's dodging throw and end up to the side of your opponent, it automatically switches to a sidethrow. Same goes for a behind throw. I've dodged an opponent and ended behind them and my dodging throw became a back throw - I didn't cancel it.

Now, Alan, *can* one cancel the dodging throw with G or something? I have no idea. Could be quite useful if it's possible. I'll check that out next time I'm out.

cheers,

<font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
<font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>

 

Wow! thx alot uk-guy, I play Kage as my main to, but havent tried VF4 to much, anyways thx for the info..

 

Re: more Kage stuff

After a JS sabaki counter, is there anything that is guaranteed?
Also, after blocking a sweep (say, AOI's PPPdK), what's the best thing to do? try elbow but didn't even 'touch' the opponent, tried D,d/f P but not fast enough either.

 

Mo, nice report. hopefully I'll get the chance to play with you again someday (E3?).

a note on reversals:

looking at the books, you'll notice that ALL high reversals can now be done with d/b+P+K in addition to the classic b+P+K. Yet, there is no distinction between the two in the case of Kage, it just allows you to choose which command you want to use; both commands reverse the same moves. In a move list, it says : KoTeGaeshi: (vs high, middle P) b+P+K or d/b+P+K. In other characters' move lists, if they can reverse elbows, it's noted as a different command (different animation), and will have the Kanji for elbows, or "Hiji" in katakana.

This is basically further simplification of the reversal system (or Tekken-ization): one command for all High/Middle moves (d/b+P+K) one for low moves (d+P+K). Although you can still choose b+P+K for high if you wish, but if your character has high and mid like Akira or Pai, why would you? I think they gave Kage both commands to keep consistent with their new idea that high reversals could be done with the mid command for everyone.

The vs middle punch in the command list refers to moves like Akira's palm or Lau's d/f,d/f+P that while they are a mid hit, are reversed high. But you don't need to choose one command or the other, I'm pretty sure. At least that's the case for Akira.

Regarding cancelling Akira's bodycheck over an oppt then SDE, I think what you saw was d/f+P+K+G, P over a downed oppt. But, I did see someone bodycheck with back turned and when he finished, Akira just kept facing forward (now facing the oppt), not turning around to expose his back again.

Spotlite

 

Spot,
your posts are usually pretty accurate, but are you sure about this reversal thing? I think (and hope) you may be wrong here. The interpretation I've heard of how it works (and the one I hope is correct) is this:
Attacks that hit high are reversed high.
Attacks that hid mid are reversed mid.
And that's it. So akira's single palm is now a mid reversal since it hits crouchers,
while his standing palm is still a high reversal (and only high).

If sega were going to Tekkenize VF by making b and d/b+PK do the same thing, I think they'd get rid of the d/b+PK command entirely just to keep things clean. Anyway, regarding the translation, is it possible you're misreading things?
To me:
KoTeGaeshi: (vs high, middle P) b+P+K or d/b+P+K.
means "it can reverse high and middle punches, using b+PK or d/b+PK RESPECTIVELY"
If anything the system is more complex.. You have to know the hit level of weird looking attacks like d+PK in order to reverse them, and even THEN you have to keep in mind quirks, such as the fact that the jumonji reversal doesn't work on elbow but does on other midlevel punches.

Of course all that is assuming I'm right. If I'm not, can you test and confirm?



/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Oh shit, I just read through the movelists and some BBSes, spotlite is right. db+P+K does indeed obviate the need for b+P+K. For the longest time, I thought the new system required you to specifically use b+P+K to reverse high, but after rereading, you can indeed use db+P+K.

At least for Kage, this is good, because already Kage lost VF2's d+P option select, and I thought that if VF4 required Kage players to b+P+K to reverse a Standing Palm but db+P+K to reverse a Single Palm, then his reversals would be toned down even further. With this little tidbit, I guess I'll be working db+P+K reversal into my game a bit more...

(Of course, this makes Akira/Aoi's high/mid reversals pretty damn powerful now...)

 

.. That's a bummer. I don't want the game to turn into DOA.


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

(Of course, this makes Akira/Aoi's high/mid reversals pretty damn powerful now...)

Exactly. I tested this out over and over in Japan. Unless I'm crazy, but the way that I'm sure is because I've reversed moves that are classically high reversals (like Jacky's Beat Knuckle) with d/b+P+K, and gotten the HIGH reversal animation. In addition, I've reversed high kicks many times with d/b+P+K and gotten the high kick reversal, not the middle one. The easy way to test this is for anyone to just reverse a regular P with d/b+P+K. Against characters like Jacky and Jeffry, it works really well (elbows, knees, high and middle punches, high and middle kicks, flipkicks... one command).

I thought everone knew this already It makes a certain kind of perfect sense, given that VF4 has been so simplified over other versions. If for some reason I'm wrong (which I'm pretty sure I'm not), I apologize now for the distraction.

Spotlite

 

Brian, just to get this absolutely straight. For a character like say, Aoi, b+P+K and d/b+P+K are for all practical purposes the same exact move, reversing both high and mid.

Or does b+P+K only reverse high?

 

Creed
Spot is correct on this one~

But the old coot in mah VF brain still does b, P+K to reverse high n d/b P+K to reverse mid~

Nasty habit to have in VF4

<font color=red>~~~ 'Flock off feather brain, or u can stick around and find out the hard way!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif~~~'