VF4 Looks and Comparison

Here I will give you some of my expectations for why I thought vf4 would be.

In 1965, Gordon Moore was preparing a speech and made a memorable observation. When he started to graph data about the growth in memory chip performance, he realized there was a striking trend. Each new chip contained roughly twice as much capacity as its predecessor, and each chip was released within 18-24 months of the previous chip. If this trend continued, he reasoned, computing power would rise exponentially over relatively brief periods of time.

Moore' slaw has been applied to almost all aspects of computing, from personal PC's, business workstations, and of course gaming. This rule was generally held true until of course recently.

Many people are now saying that because of the law of diminishing returns we can see less and less in terms of graphical improvements without "super hardware"






Here is Nvidia's Chart for GPU growth, their current top of the line Geforce 3 chip is an amazing jump in Moores law.

VF4 has always been a generation UP, to produce the effect of going from VF2 to VF3, you would probably have to use over x4 or 5 the number of polygons over current character models in fighting games. Lets take Tekken Tag Tournament for example, I've heard from Adam that Tekken Tag Tournament uses around 10,000 polygons per character.

Lets take a look at the below image





The dinosaur in the below image is comprised of 50,000 polygons itself not accounting for the large number of polygons in the background scene as well. The game includes multiple dinosaurs in a single scene, this new game dinosaur is running on a Geforece 3 in real time, and of course is a game slated to be out on PC and on X-Box.
This type of x4 or x5 jump with huge backgrounds as you see in the image above would give us the vf2 to vf3 type jump in vf4. This was what I was expecting, of course seeing todays graphics in mind. VF4 looks good, however its not the generational jump I was hoping to see.

For illustrate this, Vf3 held an almost 4 year lead till any fighting game could catch up to it in terms of looks. How long so you think Vf4 will have to claim it as the best looking 3d fighter this time around?

According to Moores law technology moves so quickly that we should have seen a better looking fighter than VF3 in 18 months after its release. However Nvidia is claming that it is jumping moores law incredibly, so this diminishing returns thing about vf4 makes no sense given the charts above and the image you see, the technology is available.

VF4 should be able to claim that it is ther best looking fighter for at least 18 months ahead. Its like a movie, take star wars for example, some had such high expectations that the movie let them down, I didnt have many expectations so of course I was satisfied with the movie. Similarly I had very high expectations for Vf4 since we have waited so incredible long. Thats the reasoning behind why I think VF4 should look better.

CrewNYC

 

Andy, how many polygons per second does the dinosaur demo run at? The number of polygons onscreen at once doesn't mean much unless you also know how many frames per second the demo is running (hence polygons per second). Further, is there any AI, collision detection, user input or any of the sort that would require CPU/GPU calculations?

To return to VF4, I will argue that diminishing returns still hold, but on a display-level. Let's assume away HDTV for the moment. Remember how when DC and PS2 were first announced people were talking about maximising the number of pixels an NTSC screen can display? That is the source of diminishing returns and that is why the leap from VF3 to VF4 does not seem nearly as impressive as VF1 to VF2 or VF2 to VF3.

VF2 took blocky figures from VF1 and gave them textures and depth. VF3 took VF2 and smoothed it out, gave characters fingers, and made facial expressions a little more dynamic. VF4 focuses on even more minute details; for example, in the way the facial muscles move. Thus the main improvement in each iteration lies in the details, and that also contributes to diminishing returns.

The true leap in power--consistent, if not exceeding Moore's Law--is in the number of calculations necessary to make snow and sand react as realistically as they do in VF4, the way the clothes move independently of each other and have their own physics, the smarter AI, et. al. I would wager that Naomi 2 is not at all behind the curve in Moore's Law--it's just that it's getting harder and harder to see the difference when it is clear that more and more of the power is going into aspects that go behind the aesthetic surface of the game.

And finally, had you not told me each dinosaur was composed of 50,000 polygons, I wouldn't have been nearly as impressed. From memory, the dinosaur looks awfully similar to the dinosaur demo Sony debuted with the release of the first Playstation.

ice-9

 

Aptly put Ice-9

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

Yup the game that the Geforce 3 is showing is designed for PC and X-Box at 60fps. The quality that can be shown on an NTSC screen is still limited to the GPU. To give you an idea of the quality I was expecting for VF4 take a look at the Tekken Tag intro on PS2, when Jun is walking around with water in the background, that is the approximately level of detail that will give VF4 that tech advantage as the best looking fighter say into 2005 or so. The law of dimishing returns simply doesnt hold when X-Box will give you x4 to 5 of DC graphics, and probably somewhere in the range of x2 of a PS2, on a side note the lighting engine on the X-Box is vastly greater than PS2 and they are saying since memory is dropping in price 64 to 128MB of texture memory on the final X-Box is a possibility, again the display is designed for NTSC.

VF5 will probably not come out until late 2005, at which point I will be expecting greater than Tekken Tags intro graphics, and closer to Final Fantasy than that.

To give you an idea, according to Intels chart by 2005 we will see 4-5 Gigahertz processors and the fifth or sixth generation Geforce chip, meaning PC wise you will have consoles that can be created that are x4 to 5 of an X-box. Hopefully by then we will all have HDTV, but the likelyhood is low.

CrewNYC

 

I dont really think there will be a VF5.

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

well, i think everyone is going by what yu suzuki
said a long time ago; "5 vf games"....


<font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
fuck spelling!

 

It is 5 if you count team battle it was way more than a revision.

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

I don't think there is much corrolation between Moore's law and what new 3D fighting games happen to use for hardware.

Yes, there was originally made plans for five VF games, each one trippling the number of onscreen polygons. As for whether the fifth one will make it, or whether it will stop at that, who knows. A lot of things have happened since those plans were made.

 

VF is too much of a cash cow to stop at 5. Even if Suzuki doesn't want to do a VF6 I'm sure Sega will get someone else to do it.

Or a Virtua Fighter Alpha 1, 2, 3, etc. or something like that.

ice-9

 

If Sega cared that much about making money they would of made another Shinobi, Altered Beast or Nights game.

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

Altered Beast did not do that well. Mainly, because it became a pack in game for Genesis and didn't have a big arcade fanbase.
A new Shinobi is already rumored to be in production as a game similar to Tenchu and is expected to be the answer to TECMO's new Ninja Gaiden game that is in the works. This was on dailyradar awhile back.
Nights is probably going to see a sequel in the near future. If the Sonic Adventure 2 Demo is anything to go by, then you will see it sooner than you think. Nights is featured quite a bit in the game from posters on walls to subtle uses of the collection bubbles.

SEGA of Japan has to be about money now. They will still produce quality games, but they cannot sit on great licenses anymore. Not when they have lost so much money with their failed Dreamcast endeavors. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Streets of Rage got a sequel.

replicant
"<font color=black>I</font color=black> <font color=blue>am</font color=blue> <font color=black>Shoalin</font color=black>-<font color=blue>Style</font color=blue>!"

 

ummmm dude...

I have read somewhere (from a reliable source) that that dinosaur demo is running at 30 FPS!

Also....how much does that Geforce 3 cost? Probably a lot! Its all about cost - performance balance. Naomi 2 simply cannot be beat in that respect!

I'll say it again....VF4 simply has TOO MUCH going on on-screen for current consoles to handle. Only the XBox/Gamecube can do it justice, so don't count on the PS2 version doing the arcade game justice. My prediction is that it will be similar to the port of the DC version of VF3tb.

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

The true leap in power--consistent, if not exceeding Moore's Law--is in the number of calculations necessary to make snow and sand react as realistically as they do in VF4, the way the clothes move independently of each other and have their own physics, the smarter AI, et. al. I would wager that Naomi 2 is not at all behind the curve in Moore's Law--it's just that it's getting harder and harder to see the difference when it is clear that more and more of the power is going into aspects that go behind the aesthetic surface of the game.

EXACTLY ICE!

Thanks for putting it so well.



<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

it's 6 if you count VFkids. hehe

<font color=orange> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=orange>

 

Frankley were not even close to pushing the threshold of graphics on the current generation of hardware, concentrating on the small things like muscle movement etc is a given to make the game more and more realisitic, but there is no question that there is huge room for growth. VF4 could easliy have looked like Tekken Tags Intro with some expensive hardware and running on an NTSC screen. Aptly put, lets look back at 2005 and say does vf4 look like the best fighter out? I bet wothing a year or two a better fighter will come out and on an NTSC screen. Actually when the first few fighters come out on the X-Box/Game cube they should already look better.

The naomi 2 is little more than a sli Power VR setup, the Geforce 3 is already more powerful than an sli setup of Geforce 2. The raw gpu power of a Geforce 3 is greater than a Naomi 2 in this respect. X-box also will most likely have the added advantage of having a larger amount of texture memory than the Naomi 2, since the games are designed to be both on PC and X-Box simultaneously.

I dont know about the Frame rate of Dinosaur, but lets say Tekken tag had 10,000 polygons per character, with 2 on screen thats 20,000, the dinosaur has 50,000 with three to four on screen at any given time, and the AI/physics/lighting engine etc involved.

CrewNYC

 

"Also....how much does that Geforce 3 cost? Probably a lot! Its all about cost - performance balance. Naomi 2 simply cannot be beat in that respect!"

To answer this question, the Geforce 3 will be way cheaper than the Naomi 2 and more powerful. Figure the Naomi 2 will cost in the range of 3g's to 4g's and maybe more on its arrival. In fact the X-Box and Gamecube will be more powerful than the Naomi 2.

about cost - performance balance, the Geforce 3 cant be beat in that respect. In fact an SLI designed Geforce 2 system would beat a Naomi 2.

CrewNYC

 

Andy, don't forget that to use a GeForce you'd need a PC, and a pretty darn good one if you don't want any severe bottlenecks. Also, when you purchase a Naomi 2 for a few grand, what exactly are you getting?

Finally, when is GeForce 3 coming out? When is Naomi 2 coming out? (Note that I have no clue, but I'm guessing the former is farther off than the latter).

ice-9

 

Gee.....lets see....Geforce 3 (5-600 beenz) + Good computer capable of taking advantage of it (2500-3000 beenz) = A LOT OF FRIGGIN BEENZ

Whats amazing about Naomi 2 is that it is just a modified Naomi (3 year old technology) - not built from the ground up. And it STILL kicks ass.






<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

Okay dawwg, you gotta chill...

I never contested that Xbox was gonna be more powerful than naomi2 - as it definitely is!

So why are you trying to compare the two?

Our argument originally was about whether the PS2 would be able to replicate it perfectly. Remember that?

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

Geforce 3 and Naomi 2 will both be out in the fall of this year. For a few G you get the motherboard (integrated cpu/gpu)only. You still dont get the game, basically Naomi was designed to adpot different games, so you can easily swap/load new games, making it inexpensive for arcade owners to switch games. VF4 when it comes out could easily command 2G for the game itself, so you figure 2-4G for the motherboard another 2G for the game.

Geforce does need a pretty powerful PC to take advantage of it, but the cost of all the components necessary is well under even 1G. The total cost of components for instance in the X-Box will cost less than $500. I dont think microsoft will debut a console for over $500 initial cost. They will probably charge $300-$400 and take a loss on hardware to make up for it in software sales, by then a PS2 should cost around $200-$249 retail.

CrewNYC

Oh in reply to adams thread, I was only talking about cost/performance ratio actually. In terms of PS2 doing VF4, if we get as good as a translation as VF3tb on the DC for VF4 then I will be more than happy!

CrewNYC