VF4 new concepts

Since better graphics and new techniques are a given for VF4, I think that for the game to actually EVOLVE it would need some new concepts. It seems obvious to me that the next step for VF4 would be incorporating apparent damage (touched on in Fighting Vipers). It would be realistic to see bruises and flying teeth (ala Ready to Rumble). The cuts and scrapes aspect would be only graphical in nature and should be easily implemented. Broken limbs could add an interesting tactical element, but might be too much of an advance for the DC.

It seems that Sega is going for realism in the Virtua Fighter series, so why not have wounds instead of energy bars.

- Fifthvenom

 

Since better graphics and new techniques are a given for VF4, I think that for the game to actually EVOLVE it would need some new concepts. It seems obvious to me that the next step for VF4 would be incorporating apparent damage (touched on in Fighting Vipers). It would be realistic to see bruises and flying teeth (ala Ready to Rumble). The cuts and scrapes aspect would be only graphical in nature and should be easily implemented.

I like this idea, but PLEASE Sega, keep things subtle. We don't want blood spraying all over the place a la MK. Maybe something like...after a close game is over, instead of say, Jacky's usual winning pose, the camera can get a close up of his grim face, and small trickle of blood comes out of the corner of his mouth. Jacky reaches up and wipes a bit of the blood with his hand, looks at it, and mutters, "Thank you for the good match." Camera pans, end of match.

Woo-hoo!!!! Talk about style!

Broken limbs could add an interesting tactical element, but might be too much of an advance for the DC.

I actually don't like the idea of broken limbs all that much. Once you get the advantage, it's really hard for the guy whose limb is broken to come back. Even if you give that guy extra benefits somehow, it may still prove too frustrating for players to be a positive factor.

That's the one reason I don't like Bushido Blade all that much--the game is too much about instant death. What's the point of going on when you can't stand and you only have one arm left? It's no longer a game, but a waste of time for both players.

It seems that Sega is going for realism in the Virtua Fighter series, so why not have wounds instead of energy bars.

There is a new AM2 developed fighter in the works (I forgot the name...W-something...Waffupu?) that doesn't have energy bars either. I can see how VF4 might take that approach, but I'm not entirely sure it's a good thing; I guess it depends on how it is implemented. I mean, after all, there is a good reason why AM2 decided to add a counter to help the player keep track of Shun's sake points.

I have to disagree that AM2 is trying to make VF "realistic", although Sega's marketing department may try to make it seem that way. Yu stated more than once that there is a limit as to how much realism can play in a game. I mean, if you want ultra realism, take out the float combos, the ring outs, outrageous moves like the kick flip, a good chunk of the throws, and make moves like the Wolf's d/f,d/f+P+G instant death. No, VF never was meant to be realistic, although certainly, that's not to say it wasn't meant to contain elements of realism.

OK, my break is over, back to studying. /images/icons/frown.gif Two tomorrow!!

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Talk about blood spraying!!!

I read some page, (UGR.NET???), mentioning a demo they saw in private with AM2 and gang. It showed Jeff vs Taka on a fishing boat, and after the match was over, Jeff grabbed a harpoon and disembowelled Taka. Gross, and it spoils everything.

 

Kbcat's always had this cool idea - the replay clip of the match should not be just the last 3-4 seconds...rather it should be the damaging sequence/combo that occurred during the round. I like this idea as well. Just think, this could make up for those times for when you're playing and you land that really freakin hard combo against your opponent only to lose the match by ring out or something! This has happened to us all.

The worse thing is, when you land the combo, you know you're going to lose from Murphy's Law. arg.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

I read some page, (UGR.NET???), mentioning a demo they saw in private with AM2 and gang. It showed Jeff vs Taka on a fishing boat, and after the match was over, Jeff grabbed a harpoon and disembowelled Taka. Gross, and it spoils everything.

I think I remember where you read that article. It actually originates from a site (heh...I forgot the name as well) that specializes in tabloid-like interpretations of gaming news. So basically, the whole site is a joke site. /images/icons/wink.gif

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Hmmm...Well, I think the blocking could evolve, so that you can parry, force block, do blocks that damage..etc...ability to manipulate limbs better would definatly make the game more challenging {and I don't want to hear the bitching about how this would make the game to hard...those who play vf already are genearally good gamers}...I have been screaming for this from day one. I think limb/body/head damage should come into play. This could be rewarding for the player that really chooses what spots he attacks. If you keep blocking hard kicks with an arm..it will hurt that arm, if you keep kicking one part of the body, it will get withered down {suck as if you keep kicking someone's leg, make them limp abit, not kick as hard, make the kick longer} I would also LOVE to see expressions of pain on a players face and other signs of damage...make em get black and blue, hair messed up, clothing torn, shoes scuffed....not over the top..but within the relm of fun . Maybe using the environment better..like doing phoenix flips off of walls and the such, using chairs, or going around pillars...hmm..brain say no more work now...so I stop typing

 

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I think limb/body/head damage should come into play. This could be rewarding for the player that really chooses what spots he attacks. If you keep blocking hard kicks with an arm..it will hurt that arm, if you keep kicking one part of the body, it will get withered down {suck as if you keep kicking someone's leg, make them limp abit, not kick as hard, make the kick longer} I would also LOVE to see expressions of pain on a players face and other signs of damage...make em get black and blue, hair messed up, clothing torn, shoes scuffed....not over the top..but within the relm of fun .

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but how do you implement all those features into a coherent system? that's really the issue. right now the way the game is set up, it's very important for players to have a good sense of how long a given move will take to come out, and what will happen afterwards in various situations (whiff, block, mC, MC, stagger etc, throw counterable etc). if a moves properties change as the match progesses, how is a player supposed to keep track of it--because if you can't keep track of something, you can't very well use it to your advantage (kinda like stance, you know? lion's u/f+E dodges to the side of his opponents front facing leg, u/b+E dodges in the direction of lion's back, d/b after *f+P will zap you back if Lion's...oh, i forget which foot....) so how do you integerate body damage? doesn't Kage's TFT in one version of VF2 send the opponent not quite as high if Kage has under 50% life remaining? wasn't that a real pain to remember? did it add much to the game? I'm not trying to say that body damage is in all cases a bad idea, but it would need to be integrated somehow into a coherent system. VF needn't be the perfect picture of reality, just a good line drawing.

anyhow, i really really don't like the idea of blood. maybe a little dirt here and there, ripped clothing. i liked the suggestion of puddles that get your character's clothing wet.

 

::if a moves properties change as the match progesses, how is a player supposed to keep track of it--because if you can't keep track of something, you can't very well use it to your advantage (kinda like stance, you know? lion's u/f+E dodges to the side of his opponents front facing leg, u/b+E dodges in the direction of lion's back, d/b after *f+P will zap you back if Lion's...oh, i forget which foot....) so how do you integerate body damage? doesn't Kage's TFT in one version of VF2 send the opponent not quite as high if Kage has under 50% life remaining? wasn't that a real pain to remember?::

peter: The way I see it is that these would be something to distinguish the expert from the regular player. The regular player wouldn't worry about such things. I'd rather see that kind of complexity, than having expertness determined (to some extent) by how well/consistently you do a DLC or SPoD or Korean step, or whatever. The focus for expert status should be more on brainwork than on reflexes. At least that is how I see it.
imashroom

 

sorry, i should have been clearer: i want to know how a body damage system would be implemented.

by analogy, you can hit someone in many, many places: head, neck, chest, stomach, sides, arms, etc. in VF1, they reduced this to three: high mid and low. thus blocking, reversals, throws and the entire VF fight engine. Likewise, you can get hurt in many, many ways. so how do you translate that into a video game? hit points like D&D? wound catagories like Cyberpunk 2013 (eg minor, serious, critical, mortal per each area)? the cool thing about the wound catagory system is that your character could suffer multiple minor wounds and not progress to a worse catagory and not be much affected (unlike D&D--one hit point at a time and *eventually* your dead). but if you got two serious wounds in the same place, then for that location you would be considered to have a critical wound.

 

Umm..no..I am not saying you keep hitting that place you kill the guy...geez...why is it that so many people on this board are soo resistant to new ideas? Location damage and effect would give expert players something to do, something to try and figure out. It helps keep the game fresh longer cause you know that it is no longer all preset what can happen. By making it even more complicated, you can have some characters damage different/harder/easier than other characters. I think this is critical infact to really developing an association with your favorite character. No longer would you just shrug off damage. A pai player would have to really think about whats happening, where as a Jeffery player would have to worry not to damage his arms so he can still throw well..etc.
A place that continues to get hit looses effectiveness to a degree. Err...mind not function, josh stop ramble

 

Ohh, yeah, on blood

I do think it helps to add to the grit of the game. tattered clothing could lay about..you could even have someones tooth {like in the VF2 commercial} laying around...blood and such type of things just add more to the aura..and would maybe get more people to play the series, lord knows we need em.

 

yes but how would it work?

reread my post, I'm not hostile to the idea, I'm just wondering if you have any specific ideas on how it might work. like to simulate a realistic defense, VF has blocking, reversals and parries. but there are problems with it: not all characters have reversals or parries even though that is very much part of their style. Lion doesn't have any VF3 reversals, even though his style has plenty of counters (and ff+P+G represents one of them). So should everybody in VF4 have some combination of reversals and parries where appropriate? I think that would be cool, but you would also have to make sure the strength of the reversals and parries was well balanced with the character's other moves (perhaps aoi, as she doesn't have many float combos, would have more powerful reversals that could do significant damage when linked with a mix of follow-ups, TFT calibur). Or should they completely overhaul the entire guard-reversal-parry system?

-peter

<font color=red>no blood</font color=red>

 

::sorry, i should have been clearer: i want to know how a body damage system would be implemented.::
Okay, here's a rough sketch of one possibility. The computer divides up the body into several major areas, such as head, torso, left/right arm/leg, stomach, whatever. Damage to different parts have different effects. A head hit is more likely to cause a stagger, or if severe enough, a knockout. Stomach attacks might be more likely to bowl you over in a forward direction leaving your head more vulnerable. Successful leg attacks might lessen your ability to dodge/run, and lessen the effectiveness of your kicks, or might cause tripping. Successful arm attacks might make your punches/blocks less effective. MC's might serve as the rough equivalent of a critical hit (just a thought -- not a requirement). There are endless possibilities here. And if implemented on the Dreamcast, you might even have the damage inflicted only known to the person hurt -- the damage would be recorded on their VMU. Your opponent would only be able to surmise how badly you are hurt by the way you act and the confidence they have in the effect of their blows. This opens possibilities of faking being injured, and is even more "realistic". Perhaps the DC vibrating device could even give a stronger vibration for a more successful (e.g., punishing) blow landing, so you have some idea of the impact of your kick/punch. As I've said before, the boundaries are limitless.
Imashroom

 

Can't remember if anyone mentioned this but if fatigue should be added in, it should be more towards the point when your player is near to zero life, if you know what I mean. So an attack when the life is full will be different when the life is nearly drained.

Another way could be in the execution of moves... for example, Aoi's kick is pretty high when her life is full and lower when her life is nearly drained... this could mean new combo stuff and whatnot, including a greater variety of moves...

<hr>
<font color=orange>Better run home to Mama now! Ohohohohoho...</font color=orange>
<hr>

 

Vicks Biru: Good fatigue ideas. Maybe Kage would not be able to TFT if fatigued? And Wolf's GS could have a small range, maybe even a half swing? Jumping/hopping might be prohibited to a fatigued character? Execution of attacks and recovery time could be longer? And maybe lying on the ground longer could reduce fatigue (like a boxer taking the count).
Imashroom

 

::So should everybody in VF4 have some combination of reversals and parries where appropriate?::

I think yes, but it could vary greatly with each character. One character might be better at blocking leg attacks while another covers his/her head better. There are other defensive possiblities besides reversals/parrying. Ducking (not just mere head dodges) without actual crouching could be added, with some characters better at it than others, or with exclusive use.

::Or should they completely overhaul the entire guard-reversal-parry system?::

I think it's time to do just that.

Imashroom

 

Personally, VF4 has a lot of ground to cover to keep up with some of the latest
fighters since it's been 1996 since it's initial foray into the gamerooms...

I for one would like to see free 360 roaming to a small degree, but not quite
as open as Soul Calibur, as SC made it difficult to land combos half the time
due to not being in *PERFECT* line with your opponent.

Tagging is a viable option, though it should be a bit more realistic than TekTag
where characters seem to pop out of nowhere when the tag button is mashed. In
VF, since obviously the boards will be able to handle more polys, the tagged
character can cheer on their partner in the background until tagged again.
Just something to consider.

As for adding to the graphics, I have one that I think would look really cool,
but might be too much for anyone at this point. Each character should have
40 or 50 block animations and use certain animations for certain moves...Sega
has already started this, but I think it should go all the way. I.E. If some
character comes in with a straight mid kick, have the blocker extend their hands
out slightly and push the kick away. Someone comes in with a spin fist, the
blocker puts up their forarms up on the side the opponent is attacking on. And
all the block attacks have 'blocked' animation, not just some of them as in VF3.
If this is to be implemented correctly, the fights would appear even more
realistic than ever.

As for the limb damage system, this has been tried many times, and it really
doesn't seem to add anything to the game, just take away. I personally can't
see any way this can be added to make the game more enjoyable.

Oh yeah, before I jet, another thing I think that would be just dandy is if
Sega added some attitude to their whole presentation. Right now as it is, it
seems to clean, and too...Saturday morning cartoonish...One of the reasons I
stayed with Tekken so long was because of 1.) The weird main story of Kazuya
making a pact with the devil to kill his father and 2.) The dark, gritty,
industrial feel of the whole thing. VF seems so 'happy' when in fact there is
some turmoil going on that one would never guess due to the game's presentation
as a whole. I may be pissing into the wind with that one though...as the
'cleanliness' does have some charm...it's just not my, and evidently America's,
cup of tea.

I'm outtie.