vf4 option select

thanks for mentioning that throw reversal idea thingy.. I'd forgotten all about it.
A couple of things:
Wolf: you stop everything but the wrist lock swing, but what about b,b+P+G? That's escapable right? It's good damage too, and if the opponent hits a wall there's a pounce... also n, f, d/f+P+G wouldn't stop a giant swing [sad].
I think vs. wolf you're pretty safely screwed, at least four good throws to worry about. That's how it should be for a wrestler.

vs. lau, you leave out d+P+G to stop the stumbling trip, and I think that's his strongest throw... b,f+P, followed by PPPsweep is near guaranteed. Lau's another "you're screwed" character maybe.

Yee, jacky gets a free ground kick after his 35 pt. throw, which makes it a little better.

 

Aoi's d/f+P+G is a pretty good threat I think, it's 25% of your life.
She has four of these 50 point throws -
b+P+G
f,f+P+G
d/b+P+G
d/f+P+G

So she's tough to escape against. You also have to worry about her multi, and then you have to worry about whether she starts with HCF or HCB. I find that for situations where a throw is obvious, people can do the half circle multi, but for situations where they don't have time to prepare, it's wiser to escape for b or d/b or d/f or one of those.

Does anyone know if her f,f+P+G guarantees a ground punch or anything else?

 

Why wouldnt n,f,df+p+G stop a giant swing it just f+p+g to escape it. Also the start up on b,b+p+g is pretty large you should not be getting hit by that.

 

Unless VF4 is different in the escape system than VF3, escaping a giant swing requires b,f+P+G, not just f+P+G.

As for b,b+P+G - In movies people eat b,b+P+G constantly. The startup on it is no worse than the startup on the giant swing probably. But I don't play very often, so what do I know? All I see is the damage b,b+P+G does, which to me makes it a logical throw to use.

The strength of b,b+P+G is that it works when people aren't expecting it, so escaping for it is difficult. When people are expecting a throw, wolf players seem to do lots of giant swing, SSD, or arm lock throws.

 

It just one direction to escape the complex or half circle throw now so f+p+g would do it. On b,b+p+g is just like f+p+g catch throw meaning you can escape the other elements and take no damage the only difference is that it's starting position is you back.

 

oops. I went all this time not knowing that. So just f+P+G to escape a twirl, that's neat.

b,b+P+G being the catch throw.... maybe I'm confused again. Is b,b+P+G the throw in which wolf hangs back, then yells and runs at you and immediately switches behind you?

I've been thinking that b,b+P+G was the motion for the throw where wolf hugs you close to his chest while crushing your ribs, then turns and throws you away. I'd check VP but it's down.

If that's the case, yah, b,b+P+G is not a big thing to worry about.
So what's the motion for the throw I described?

 

b,b+p+g is the throw you described where he runs back etc. The throw where he clutches you close to his chest etc is his 270 throw. I think the escape for that throw if f+p+g or b+p+g I am not sure though. I would bet its b+p+g to escape though

 

OOps. I was wrong... maybe I can get some VF4 wolf happening sometime during this christmas vacation.

Offtopic: I see you lurking on IRC.

 

Yeah I never know when people are on so I just leave it on at work. And check when I am not busy.

 

Lonely's right on that one. I'm pretty sure its only f+P+G for GS. As for b,b+P+G, its n+P+G.
Half the games up here use alot of clock time on throw reversals and the distance between opponents thereafter. Also TA guessing games after most regular n+P+G throw reversals have become an integral part of common damage. And when you finally do get a throw off its at a weird camera angle (i.e. after a TE exchange got a TFT with camera facing Kage, the opp. was about to dissapear behind kage as he was falling, so I hit d+P+K and when that hit registered the camera swung back to regular side view ).

 

thanks for mentioning that throw reversal idea thingy.. I'd forgotten all about it.

Yah. IIRC, Jirawat posted a translation from a Japanese mag (most likely Gamest) of what throws were most used in VF3 with a percentage of the time stat comparing the specified throw to all of the character's other throws. We proceeded to masage those stats and you responded with your normal verbose replies of the time... /versus/images/icons/wink.gif I'm sure that stuff is in the VFA or even buried in the VF3 section here, but I haven't taken the time to look.

Wolf: you stop everything but the wrist lock swing, but what about b,b+P+G? That's escapable right?

No it's not AFAIK, but bb+P+G does no damage by itself. It's the start-up for a multi-throw guessing game. Wolf can choose df+P+G or b+P+G for straight up damage, or use f+P+G to push his opponent away and expose his back. bb+P+G is the same as Wolf's f+P+G catch in that reguard, just not as many options. (Damn, more additions are needed to virtuaprojects movelist notes... /versus/images/icons/wink.gif) And AFAIK, the f+P+G catch throw is also not escapable up front. You start playing the reversal guessing game after Wolf grabs you.

also n, f, d/f+P+G wouldn't stop a giant swing [sad].

Like Lonelyfighter said, f+P+G is all you need now in VF4. It stops both the giant swing and 270 degree throw. Although b,f+P+G will still work and represents its own option select for many characters like Sarah, Akira, Lion, Pai and Lau, as I pointed out earlier in this thread.

I think vs. wolf you're pretty safely screwed, at least four good throws to worry about. That's how it should be for a wrestler.

Yeah, Wolf and Jeff both have enough mix up with very good throws to combat the reversal mash technique that we're discussing. If I was a Wolf player that was fighting someone that could mash out 3 or more escapes reliably, I would use the unescapable f+P+G catch as my primary throw. You go back to the old fashion "you get one guess, make it count" reversals at that point, and the odds are back in Wolf's favor.

vs. lau, you leave out d+P+G to stop the stumbling trip, and I think that's his strongest throw... b,f+P, followed by PPPsweep is near guaranteed. Lau's another "you're screwed" character maybe.

Point taken. So then the the best reversal mask for Lau would be < f,df,d | d,df,f > which reverses everything but the b+P+G throw. Hmm... I like the sound of "reversal mask" /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Yee, jacky gets a free ground kick after his 35 pt. throw, which makes it a little better.

If a ground kick is guaranteed, then that makes it a 50 pt throw, which is right at the average for non-grapplers. We may have to rethink Jacky's throw options then... How about < b,n,df >? Give Jacky the ff+P+G clothesline. Like any respectable Sarah player, a Jacky would be embarrased to use it anyway, unless he was going for the wall throw. Jacky <font color=red>Rocket</font color=red> <font color=green>GO!!!</font color=green> =)

 

I'm confused so do you roll the motion and hit p+g at the end and that will count as all the escapes? Or do you roll the motion while mashing p+g to get the throw escapes? Just need a little clarification on the method we are discussing.

 

Both Wolf's giant swing and KS throw are reversed with f+P+G. Sucks big time for Wolf as many consider the KS throw (u>b>d>f+P+G or d>b>u>f+P+G) to be his best throw now, and all veteran players are already in the habit of reversing f+P+G to stop the giant swing.

The KS is what you've been seeing Creed. The bb+P+G throw is where Wolf steps back a bit before charging in to grab you.

Does anyone know what KS stands for or where it comes from? "KS" is all that is in the black book... <boggle>

Yupa is awake ==> Yupa jumps into the fray at #vfhome...

 

Wolf: you stop everything but the wrist lock swing, but what about b,b+P+G? That's escapable right?

No it's not AFAIK, but bb+P+G does no damage by itself. It's the start-up for a multi-throw guessing game. Wolf can choose df+P+G or b+P+G for straight up damage, or use f+P+G to push his opponent away and expose his back. bb+P+G is the same as Wolf's f+P+G catch in that reguard, just not as many options. (Damn, more additions are needed to virtuaprojects movelist notes... <http://virtuafighter.com/versus/images/icons/wink.gif> ) And AFAIK, the f+P+G catch throw is also not escapable up front. You start playing the reversal guessing game after Wolf grabs you.


Yupa just P+G as he grabs, then d/f+P+G or b+P+G, I swear you'll be twisting his arm off before Wolf gets to a full back mount position. I havent seen anyone pull a throw off the tackle grab in a while.. Catch throw's a bitch guessing game though cuz of timing, gotta admit...

* KS : Kumite Swing ?

 

Sorry, I simplified in my original list... I thought it would make it clearer... oops.

You need to tap P+G with every indicated direction. This is why I prefaced the list with my opinion that no mortal could reliably enter in more than 3 throw reversal motions in the 10 frame window you have to do this.

Option select examples:

One version of mid level attack reversal -- throw reversal option select would be:
db+P+K, d+P+G, df+P+G, f+P+G

Or you could try dodge out of the screen -- throw reversal option select:
d,n, d+P+G, df+P+G, f+P+G

Instead of "DTE" which is "double throw escape," we could start using "TRM" to mean "throw reversal motion/mask." What do you guys think?

Ack, net is really slow right now... I can't seem to get into #vfhome... :-(

 

Ok thanks. I think we should stick with the TE thing no sense in changing a perfectly good abbreiviation. hurry up no one is on vfhome but me and Creed.

 

OK, how about "MTE" then for multi-throw escape? The whole point of this thread is that you can reverse 3 or more throws at any given time that you're expecting your opponent to throw you.

R-MTE == attack reversal -- multi-throw escape

E-MTE == evade(dodge) -- multi-throw escape

A-MTE == attack -- multi-throw escape

 

how about TTE for Triple throw escape. But i see what you mean if more than 4 is possible then we will have to come up with something else.

 

What would be worth while to practice, however, is attack reversal into multi-throw escape. Getting into the habit of entering in a QCF and mashing P+G after every attack reversal would be a good thing.

Yah. That sounds good. I do part of this QCF option select thing anyway, with db+P+K, df+P+G, f+P+G. Works good with Jacky, Jeffrey, and Aoi. This is against the CPU, most of the people I'm stuck playing against don't throw often enough to justify option select./versus/images/icons/frown.gif

And your above post about throw escapes against specific characters is helpful. Thanx...

 

If I was a Wolf player that was fighting someone that could mash out 3 or more escapes reliably, I would use the unescapable f+P+G catch as my primary throw.

After reading Mr White's comments and thinking about this some more today, I take this back... Wolf's catch throws are not a good option. Chances are that Wolf would be thrown out of the catch throw during its execution phase by whatever throw his opponent was entering in during the mash reversal technique. Does any Wolf player have a comment? Llanfair?

Also, Myke suggested a Z-pattern to do the multi-throw reversal when we first learned that Japanese players were using a semi-circle motion and mashing P+G to reverse throws. For some of the reversal motions I noted, I originally thought that it might be easy to do b,f then slide the stick down to d/f (or f,b then slide stick to db) On second thought, it might be easier for some to do f,b,df or b,f,db. It might be easier for you to get the right timing by bouncing the stick back and forth like that. Makes no difference really... whatever you're comfortable with.