vf4 sucks

(Yes, this post is very similar to another post on another board. I'm posting it here as an experiment, and at the request of someone. Once again - if you don't like to hear my bitchy rants then don't read this. You've been warned.)

Okay..maybe it doesn't suck (that much). Much of my frustration is coming from having to deal with shitty sticks, as well as learning to adjust to VF4's buffering/G system. But some of the basic fundamentals are just really pissing me the fuck off.

Like what? you ask. Let's start with mC'ing moves. A VF3 concept - that if any move was mC'able at all, it was throw mC'able - has been carried over to VF4, and made even potent. In VF3, if something was just barely throw counterable, it was hard as FUCK - try mC throwing Lau's PPP in tb, especially with one of the non-grapplers. You'll have a hell of a time.

Now, in VF4, all you have to do is just block and then mash in a throw asap - and you'll get it, almost every single time. Now, some people find it hard to react, but personally I don't. And any goddamn monkey will get used to the timing, eventually. And I just don't understand how they can justify that. The quickest recovering moves are the most open to the serious damages from throws? That makes no sense.

"Okay", you say, "but there's multiple command throw escapes! This makes it okay!" Riight. And apparently, all you have to do is a half circle forward or back and mash P+G, and this works really well. This is fucking gross. The only time VF has ever rewarded mashing is for getting up and getting out of staggers. The fact that this is allowed is just stunningly retarded.

So...easy throws, easy escapes. So we have to mix things up. But what about option select? Now here's my goddamn nightmare. Block a shrm or dbpm from Akira as Kage or Jeff. Akira does db+P+K,x+P+G,x+P+G. Now...just what the FUCK am I supposed to do (aside from abandoning all hope and getting pissed off)?! Forget the two best throws. Forget the knee with Jeff. Forget the heelkick and kickflip for Kage. What can I do? d+K+G with Jeff? b+P,K or PPb+P with Kage? Uh huh. Right. No what if he (or any other character) starts doing G-DTE (or A-DTE or E-DTE)? Well, then I can toss those and all of the slower unreversable alternative moves out the window (screaming on fire), can't I?

No, I don't expect the opponent to have the perfect defense every single time, but no matter which way he mixes his OS up, it's a nightmare of uncertainity, and his chances of coming out unharmed seem better than my nailing him (and if I do nail him, it'll more than likely be for shit damage, much less damage than what the move of his I just blocked can do), no matter how well I might try to condition him - totally lopsided, no?

BTW...yeeessss...I'm well aware of PPb+P with Kage, but nothing compares to a knockdown move. And after the PPb+P I'm right in my opponents face, smelling his breath, and for many opponents, this is NOT! where I want to be, especially against Akira. Oh Akira. I don't care what people say, he's fucking cheap. I used to hate using that word in reference to anything VF, and it might not be entirely true, but just for simplicity's sake I'm gonna call him a cheap goddamn pig. Yes, I'm bitter about what they did to Kage (what the fuck is up with AM2? Do they arbitrarily pick a character to suck all the life and venom out of in each new release of theirs? They did it with Kage in 2.1, Sarah in VF3, arguably with Taka in tb, and now Kage in VF4. Fuck Sega...) but anyone who can't recognize that the risk vs reward factors with Akira are UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY FUCKED is BLIND.

In VF2 and (to a slightly lesser degree) in VF3, I knew what I could do - it was so solid. Button mashers were fucked. If you screwed up bad, you couldn't get away with it. Now VF4 feels so fluid - it feels worse than some of the nasty guessing games in VF3 - it just feels like whoever spazzes and mashes the most wins. It's like FV and Tekken combined, and I really don't find it very fun at all.

I could be wrong, though...

 

re: Kage vs. Akira, sure that can be unfair. Poor character balance will always feel unfair. Kage's gone from a two trick pony to a zero trick dead cow.

For any other matchup: You have the exact same advantages as they do, how is that unfair? Pick a frigging reversing character whose best attacks don't all hit mid.
Even with perfect controls, you're still playing a character with no strong high or low attacks, so it sucks for you, yes. Pick Jacky. Now you can throw out abusive moves all day and intelligently escape those 'free' minor counter throws.
It's not as if there are many 40% or 50% throws these days anyway (For anyone but wolf and jeff), so if the only minor counter is throwing and the only throws available are mostly weak and escapable, it's not so rough.

Last, if blocking and countering is ineffective these days and constant offense is unfairly rewarded, then you might as well start getting more aggressive.

You stupid vicious fucknut.
AMMA KILL YOU BITCH!
There, I made it good'n'flamey.
Sort of.
Less the good and the flamey.

I didn't wanna post actually. Someone come play quake. It's more fun than VFDC and wanking combined. (you know some of you do it)

 

I don't want to play Jacky. I don't want to play Akira. I don't want to play Lei.

And re: "exact same advantages", well, then, this is where other forms of option select come in. G-TE, etc. My point was that R-TE is especially insidious when it comes to a few characters.

I forgot one other thing - I think crumble animations are stupid. Yes, they do add a bit to the game and they look neat, but in VF1/2/3 floats all depended on so many factors - center of gravity, move interrupted, interrupting move, range, etc etc. This meant you often either had to pay attention to what kind of float you got, and react accordingly, or that you just wouldn't connect some followups.

Now, in VF4, a crumble animation basically hands to you, on a silver platter: "Here's your free 50-70 point combo, sir! Enjoy!". No more variables (except maybe for range), the same shit works almost every single time. It's just plug and chug stupidity.

 

1. If you insist on playing a Tier 3 character, you must resign yourself to a tier 1 reaming vs. players of comparable skill :/

2. Sure, a few characters make better use of R-TE better than others. A few characters had great OS in VF2. That's not a weakness of the game or the engine, in fact it's the same as it ever was in 3.

3. Crumples: eh, when did akira ever fail to get SDE, DLC in VF3? You have a point, but again it's helpful to anyone who can cause a crumple. You play jeffry. Jeffry gets MC hell stab, low throw for free. Kage's one peasly crumple attack still gets you a free d/f+K+G. You really only hate akira's SDE crumple, don't you?

 

> 1

Bahhhhh...that's stupid logic.

>when did akira ever fail to get SDE, DLC in VF3

A fuckload more times than he's gonna miss it in VF4, and he's only gonna miss it in VF4 if he can't do the DLC or is slow. Now, ask yourself when Akira ever fail to get the d+P, dbpm? When did he fail to get the DJK? Even in VF2! In VF4 he'll NEVER, EVER miss them, and that is FUCKED.

> A few characters had great OS in VF2.

At least most of the OS could be handled...Kage's d+P was a pain in the ass but against some characters it was also a liability (ie predictable staggers). And you could cheeze Akira, heh. Some of the throw/move OS was obnoxious, but I really don't think it kills people like VF4 OS does, mainly because the VF3/4 OS is defensive, and not offensive; i.e. you can get away with murderous bullshit all day long.

> in fact it's the same as it ever was in 3.

No, not really. I never was bothered about OS in VF3, to be honest. This is because most of the moves, when blocked, and aiming for an mC, guaranteed at least something decent in return. It was pretty hard to get away with high damage moves in VF3 totally scot free. Against some characters and situations it could be nasty, but in VF4 it's insane. Why should Akira be able to block/reverse for 40-55+ points damn near EVERYTHING after the shrm is blocked, when the shrm can take off half your lifebar? That's just wrong.

>you play jeffry. Jeffry gets MC hell stab, low throw for free.

Not if they mash QCF and P+K+G,P+K+G,P+K+G...then I'm screwed. And i don't know of any combos Jeff can do off the stomach crumble, actually.

> You really only hate akira's SDE crumple, don't you?

I'm sure I'll find others to hate, especially if I experience more good Aoi and Lion players.

 

Maybe I'm asking you to become the anti-Rico here.... but have you tried straying from the Poke-defend-counter-startover cycle?

More on key with what I'm thinking, have you tried playing a pseudo-machi range-based game at all?

Maybe I just haven't met with the horrors of Shang's Akira yet... though I admit, Akira is a whore (but fun to play as imo).

Your frustration seems to come from the block and attack situations of classic VF play and how aspects of it have been "made easier" (dumbed down) in VF4. I personally think there are other aspects that rebalance all of that out, but definitely doesn't move the game towards the classic situatioins.

As far as I'm concerned, a lot of the "block gives you super easy throw" situations are neutralized to some degree by playing a ranged-poking game. So long as the ranged poke recovers or pushes anyhow.

It really is easy to throw escape in VF4, I don't know if I even like this all that much, but it isn't hurting me much either. Rebalancing the ease of the counter-throw. Though I think throws are also rebalanced out because creating throw situations that aren't off of a block seem to be so much harder in VF4. I mean, the throw can almost come out completely and all the other person has to do is still hit punch and kill the throw.

About the Akira OS nightmare, would a crouch dash back work at all (assuming you are certain Akira is going to do defensive option select and not whore you with another mid attack assault)? Here's a whacked idea, uf+P+G? b+P+K+G? uf+P+K/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif? Or maybe just avoiding that situation and find out how you can poke "safely" in VF4?

You'll have to excuse me for just throwing ideas around, but I think it's mainly frustrating for you because VF4 seems to have moved in a direction that is really harsh on your style of play (which I admit, I really enjoy watching in VF3, pretty sure it looks great in VF2, and assuming it's ugly as hell in VF4).

As for button mashers (and Lei Fei or Pai as you mentioned on another forum), I've had NO PROBLEMS with them in VF4. Goes back to applying traditional VF theory/flowcharting basics WITH playing a range game. If you don't know what the masher is going to do, just get out of range enough to royally screw them up or let them fuck up on their own and take advantage of it.

Despite all this range talk, I don't think VF4 is a machi game at all. Depends on your definition of machi... But you still have to take the initiative to open up a situation--just that old ways seem to be restricted and much of the game allows you to eat up those approaches. But I think the situations have opened up a whole new world of "indirect" rules of engagement and sort of restricted many traditional direct approaches. I'm not saying this is evolution or advancement, I just think it's something different and pushing the game in a new direction.

And well, my impression of your play is that it's the most direct form of play I know or have seen (and I've learned so much just by watching it), and you're damn good at it, but combined with Kage in VF4, you're stuck at the bottom of a swamp. Or at least that's what it sounds like, on the contrary, I've heard your Kage is giving people hell in Boston/versus/images/icons/wink.gif

-Chanchai

 

I've been thinking about this issue since your original thread in VFP. I haven't taken the time to check all the responses there, so forgive any overlap.

First, according to a more complete counter list from the magazine "the Playstation 2", Kage has no play after guarding Akira's shoulder anyway, not even a P. Only Aoi, Pai and Sarah can connect with a P (I'm not sure if that means PK and PPP will also work). The only other exception is Shun, who can do b,f+PPP.

So for Kage, the only option is to throw, really (or try to hit someone who's whiffing reversals or trying to reverse the wrong level). But, I'm assuming Shang is doing something like d/b+P+K, b+P+G, f+P+G, even though he could be doing DTE-G and be safe.

So in this situation, I don't see why you couldn't go for P+G, d/f+P+G (d/f+K), u/f+P+G, or b,d+P+G. You said you couldn't condition him, why not? If he's always thinking you're going for the TFT or SE right off the bat, can't you condition him to escape other throws, then you can use your favorites again? In fact, in this situation, it'd seem everyone is in the same boat (aside from the above characters), not just Kage.

If you still want to attack, how about b,b+K+G? I know it's slowed down, but if Akira is busy punching in R-DTE, it should hit, right? I've also been caught several times by Dural with u/f+K+G after reversing mid right away, then getting nailed by the slightly slow u/f+K+G.

It seems to me that maybe Sega's idea making everything throw counterable was to encourage a guessing game in these kind of situations, rather than having players shelling out guaranteed counters like PK. If there's anything that seems fucked up about the new mC system, it's that even in a case where an attack is guaranteed, as far as I can tell, a properly timed escape will snap you out of recovery, and you'll avoid it. This essentially nullifies all attack based minor counters, aside from spin attacks. But, it also further supports the idea that a well guessed throw should always work, even against an escaper.

Now, to thicken the plot, there's something I figured out with Andy when he was here regarding RTE. I'm not sure if this was the case in VF3, but we figured out that it's not necessary to go back to neutral between the Rev and the TE. So, if you're fighting Jacky, and you want to Rev his P and TE his Knee Strike, all you have to do is b+P+K, P+G. You could of course follow with another TE as well. This becomes really nasty in the case of Pai, who now has the f+P+K and d/f+P+K reversals. So if Pai's fighting Jeffry, and she's in recovery, she can do d/f+P+K, P+G, slide to f+P+G. This command will reverse Jeffry's elbows, Knees, middle kicks, hell stab, body blows, kenka upper, crouching upper, hell dunk hammer, and TE the Splash Mountain, Tackle, Body Lift, Power Slam, Machine Gun Knuckle, Headbutt, and Front Back Breaker. Similar tactics work very well against Akira for Pai, as I found out after I showed this technique to gribbly.

But against Kage, in a situation similar to the shoulder ram guard, wouldn't Pai, Aoi, and Vanessa (slightly lesser so since she can't reverse elbows/knees, and aside Aki only Aoi can get kickflips) be just as potent as Akira? Even if Akira's shoulder lands, following with P, DLC still does less than half the bar. So if you conditioned Akira away from TEing the TFT, then landed it and followed with a combo, I don't see how you'd feel that even if you did counter, you wouldn't be able to do as much damage as a shoulder based combo from him.

Regarding KD, I don't think it cheapens the games depth of skill at all. In VF3, If Akira hit with the SDE, there was only one possible result: float. Now while there were varying degrees of floats (and still are), it was still always the same result. Now, a SDE will produce three different results: stagger, KD, and the varying degrees of float (most of which yeild nothing but the simplest combos anyway). SO it seems to me like players with these knids of moves must always be on their toes to respond properly. I'm not suggesting that it's difficult to so DJK to a KD, but there's always some risk involved getting an MC, right? And I don't see it as any more plug and play than classics like Kage's elbow, PK, f,f+K in VF2, or even a TFT combo.

While I don't play Kage, I know this much: in the tournament that took place in Tokyo on 10/28, two of the 6 semi-finalists were Kage players, and the currently highest ranked player on VF.net is a Kage player. Maybe if people started thinking that Kage wasn't so weak in VF4, his current strengths would become more obvious? I think one could make a good case that Kage play in VF3 was finally monotous and boring. Maybe Sega was trying to get away from that.

Spotlite

 

I did not ask for Kage advice, which is all I've been getting....

...I do have a brain....

....I can see the alternative options, as well other tools which might hopefully condition him.

However, none of them are guaranteed, all do pathetic damage, and if avoided (most of which are easy to do), then, I'm fucked. And these are my options after blocking moves which can wipe out half my lifebar? This isn't fun. I'm not bitching solely about Akira and Kage - the friggin subject title is "VF4 sucks", not "Kage sucks and Akira swallows".

> but there's always some risk involved getting an MC, right?

With a 10 frame mid move that's totally uncounterable and offers horrendous damage? Right, Spot. Risky!

> wouldn't Pai, Aoi, and Vanessa be just as potent as Akira?

Yes, if you read my posts, I'm not just bitching about Akira, but anthing involving the option select.

> In VF3, If Akira hit with the SDE, there was only one possible result: float.

Yeah? So? How is getting a crumble any different from getting a float? And it's worse, because there are no variables. Get the crumble and plug and chug your way to victory.

 

>I've heard your Kage is giving people hell in Boston

If by "giving hell" you mean "losing badly and getting pissed off", then yes...I'm dealing out so much hell it's crazy.

 

"If by "giving hell" you mean "losing badly and getting pissed off", then yes...I'm dealing out so much hell it's
crazy."

LOL. Come on man, you do well with Kage. You make it seem as if you suck or something. This is just a phase you're going through. Dont make me kick your ass.

 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!/versus/images/icons/laugh.gifKage's crumble maneuver/versus/images/icons/laugh.gifLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I play with him regularly.

Did I mention his gay ass wall jump kick?
HAHA
<---this is why I get my ass kicked...

 

Well, Rich, I guess all I can say is "you're right".

If you don't think VF4 is fun, why are you playing it?

Spotlite

 

Aw, don't be all pouty...

And...once again, read the post! I say at the very beginning - that much of my frustration is from shitbag sticks, and not really understanding what's up with the buffering system (If it's even that - I'm pretty sure you can cancel buffered moves, and this just throws me the hell off). I'm still holding out; just voicing complaints about VF4's system that have nothing to do with controls.

Also...did I read that right? A well timed dodge nullifies recovery? Way to go Sega! Jesus...

 

after akira's shrm

as a Pai player I live in fear of spotlite's shrm. Once he gets me up in the air I get badly hurt before I hit the ground.

But last time I played him (while he still spanked me 9 times out of 10, don't get me wrong) I found we got into a pattern -- if I just held my nerve and blocked the shrm I could throw.

My fave Pai throw is b,f+P+G, and of course after two or three of these I was getting broken every time. So I started doing f,b+P+G instead. Easy! I don't see what's so bad about control motion throw, ground punch (or kick/stomp whatever) after blocking a shoulder? Feels natural to me, but I've always been a block'n'throw player.

As for P -- yeah I could reliable get P,K and P,P (not the third though). I don't know if you remember, but P,K, f, f+P+G was a pretty reliable followup to a blocked shrm.

And spotlite is right -- things get really interesting with Pai's d/f+P+K inashi. Entering d/f+P+K, P+G reverses nearly any mid attack, then breaks any d/f throw (e.g., splash mountain =]). Spotlite pointed this out to me, and it was immediately effective.

Basically I'm a really defensive player -- and I find it works OK for me, even though VF4 is a more offensive game than 3.

grib.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

Amma gonna pick on your post, but don't take it hard.

My fave Pai throw is b,f+P+G, and of course after two or three of these I was getting broken every time. So I started doing f,b+P+G instead. Easy! I don't see what's so bad about control motion throw, ground punch (or kick/stomp whatever) after blocking a shoulder? Feels natural to me, but I've always been a block'n'throw player.

I think rich's complaint is that a good player can enter two throw escapes in this situation, i.e. if spotlight's playing well he will enter f+P+G, then immediately b+P+G, and escape whichever throw you tried. Plus, again, you said you had to switch up after getting escaped 2 or 3 times, that's another problem. If you only successfully punish 1 out of 3 shrms or 1 out of 4, then you're only getting a small reward for one of pai's throws vs. Akira's massively rewarding shrm combos.

As for P -- yeah I could reliable get P,K and P,P (not the third though). I don't know if you remember, but P,K, f, f+P+G was a pretty reliable followup to a blocked shrm.

Errr, remember what? Was this a leet pai VF3 strategy I missed? First, if you block spot's shrm and hit him with a punch, it's because he's not blocking, he's busy entering throw escapes. You might as well counter with a high kick or even a bigass crescent kick instead of a fast punch, because it'll hit akira while he's reaching for air, and it's more rewarding anyway... but then if your opponent is good, he'll do a high reversal and then a pair of throw escapes, and the punch or kick will be reversed. Or he'll do G-DTE if you pull off a crescent once against him. It's pretty frustrating.

As for P,K, f,f+P+G - this isn't a combo, your opponent is standing and blocking after the P,K. If P,K staggered long enough for a throw, then you could concievably just do P,K,P,K,P,K over and over until they died /versus/images/icons/mad.gif.

And spotlite is right -- things get really interesting with Pai's d/f+P+K inashi. Entering d/f+P+K, P+G reverses nearly any mid attack, then breaks any d/f throw (e.g., splash mountain =]). Spotlite pointed this out to me, and it was immediately effective.

This is what Mr. Bungle hates =D

 

Re: after akira's shrm

since people are still talking about the shoulder...

To me, the glass is more full than empty for the defender here, even if the oppt. can DTE. In the case of Pai, if I do f+P+G, b+P+G, grib can still go for P+G, b,d+P+G, or d/f+P+G. So at the worst, he has a 60% chance of getting his throw off; better if he judges my response well. The throws are guaranteed, you just have to know which to use.

Now, I was thinking about the idea of risk vs. reward in this case. People seem to be at odds with the idea that they have to enter another guessing game after sucessfully defending themselves from a rewarding move by the oppt. Let's say the odds are 50/50 for you guessing the right throw. So at best, you've got a 50% chance of getting a reward, which might vary in damage from 50 pts (pai's P+G), to 63 for Pai's wall DDT (which grib did). So, in theory someone can abuse a move like Akira's shoulder with only a 50% chance of retaliation (note these odds are skewed to the side of the defender for the sake of arguement).

So what great reward do we get for defending ourselves (TEing) from Wolf's giant swing, or Kage's TFT? Both moves give great damage and have great RO potential, and if I have the skill and yomi to TE them, shouldn't I be rewarded, lest Kage and Wolf use these moves all day risk free? Cases like this exist all through VF, and not just 4. In the magazine I mentioned before, there's a list of throws which when escaped in 4 give guaranteed followups, there are 8 of them. 3 belong to Akira, and the GS and TFT aren't on the list. SO what's to stop someone from abusing these moves? You could argue that by crouching to avoid them, one opens up the possibility of big retaliation, but on the same point, you can escape the shoulder or similar move rather than guard move for massive damage...

just more grist for the mill. But, I'm still wondering what people think about the idea of sega intentionally designing the game towards thinking games and away from memorizing counter tables?

Spotlite

 

Re: after akira's shrm

**So at the worst, he has a 60% chance of getting his throw off; better if he judges my response well.**

Not if Akira does the mash escape "technique" (wonder if you can do the mash throw escape and still hold G at the end for multiple G-TE). And the b,d+P+G and df+P+G throws are pretty blah - with options like those, the glass is filled much higher for Akira than Pai.

**So what great reward do we get for defending ourselves (TEing) from Wolf's giant swing, or Kage's TFT? Both moves give great damage and have great RO potential**

60 points for the swing is great damage? Errrrr! Jacky's fucking df,df+P+G throw does more! The swing sucks now; GodEater put it best in saying that if you do land it, you're practically handing the iniative to the opponent - tossing him far away from you for mediocre damage. Yeah, Wolf can do much more damage more near a wall, but in that case it's even more likely the opponent will be going for the escape.

And don't make me laugh about the TFT.

**there's a list of throws which when escaped in 4 give guaranteed followups, there are 8 of them.**

Uh...care to share, dude?

**designing the game towards thinking games**

This is bullshit. OS is not "thinking". It's a simple set of inputs that protect you from multiple angles, covering your ass, keeping you from having to think too much. And they made OS even easier. How does that lend itself to more thinking? It lets people get away with murder.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

OS is not thinking, but if it results in a throw escape that is supposedly almost always a neutral position, that sort of stimulates/creates a followup guessing game doesn't it?

To me, I feel that memorizing guaranteed attacks was less thinking, though I'll admit it's more "at the moment" skill in terms of reflexes in a lot of cases. In many occasions it was a poke that did lead to a guessing game with the counter-attacker having an advantage, but that usually reduced the interupted player's options down to where they had almost obvious answers. As well as the interrupting/successful counter player doing something they didn't have to think to do because they knew what they wanted to do with the advantage anyways--usually.

The result of a throw escape that is, again, supposedly neutral is indeed more thinking for both players given their options and decision to either go on the offense or defense or something other.

The reflex and respond may be dumbed down, but I don't think the mindgame is gone. The OS is easier, but the OS doesn't guarantee damage or advantage, it just reduces the disadvantage while giving a chance of damage and advantage. A mindgame still exists after a successful OS if it's a throw escape, no?

-Chanchai

 

Re: after akira's shrm

**but if it results in a throw escape that is supposedly almost always a neutral position, that sort of stimulates/creates a followup guessing game doesn't it**

You're missing the point...why should the opponent even be _able_ to so easily escape throws and counterattacks after using moves which can offer him horrendous damage? That's just dumb. Yupa said something along the lines that mC'ing is half the game of VF; now, it's hardly there anymore.

**but the OS doesn't guarantee damage or advantage,**

Err...OS can easily yield a reversal for 35-55 points, or blocking an easily counterable move, or escaping a throw which almost always puts the escapee in a good position. I wouldn't say that it _guarantees_ damage or advantage, but the person using it doesn't have too much to worry about, and can easily be rewarded for fucking up, which to me is just twisted and retarded.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

"Not if Akira does the mash escape "technique" (wonder if you can do the mash throw escape and still hold G at the end for multiple G-TE). And the b,d+P+G and df+P+G throws are pretty blah - with options like those, the glass is filled much higher for Akira than Pai."

Anybody knows for sure how many throw escapes are allowed in VF4? IIRC, its only possible to double throw escape in VF3, and its not even possible to double low throw escape.