vf4 sucks

Re: after akira's shrm

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I wouldn't say that it _guarantees_ damage or advantage, but the person using it doesn't have too much to worry about, and can easily be rewarded for fucking up, which to me is just twisted and retarded.

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Getting your shoulder ram blocked isn't the only way to "fuck it up" as far as I know. A dodge, a back dash, staying out of range--period, and an interrupt are all still options aren't they? And in cases like that, or at least back dash or slipping out of range, Akira is usually vulnerable for whiffing the shoulder ram is he not?

Does Kage's db+K work against an expected shoulder ram?

Isn't figuring out when your opponent goes for the shoulder ram also a mindgame in itself?

Not that it's the all-purpose-solution (because it's not), but in the case of Akira, wouldn't a range game or "indirect approach" help reduce some of his options and make you more worried about the double palm than say, his whole arsenal that he has in close combat? I've found dodges to work well against Akira, granted you can really see the move coming. And probably the only thing which I've found to truly be mean at various ranges is the double palm.

I know you're complaining that blocking a shoulder-ram is pointless, but to me you have a chance of getting a throw or getting your throw escaped. That's still a form of advantage that's more solid than him reversing you and you're not at a disadvantage after he escapes the throw. It's not as nice for the blocker as in previous VF's, but it's not a hopeless situation either.

Back to fucking up, he can still fuck up a shoulder-ram, just don't give him incentive to use it. Again, getting your moved block is not the only way for you to fuck it up.

Or are you saying that the option select is working perfectly even when Shang whiffs the shoulder ram? If so, would delay work to nail him after the reversal input? At least you still have the options to attack and have a guarantee--if not reversed situation. And you would have high,mid, and low attacks in hand. Heck, if he whiffs the shoulder ram, I'm sure you can get a free uf+P+G. Or can catch throws like that be escaped now? You might even have room to do some cat tricks on him (P+K, whatever it's called for Kage in VF4).

Just some thoughts, and trying to "experiment" with you in this concern.

-Chanchai

 

Re: after akira's shrm

> A dodge, a back dash, [snipperoo]

Ughhhh....I don't know what this has to do with anything. From my original post I've only been talking about how easy it is to get off scot free after having moves blocked. I'm not talking about dodging or whiffed moves. I'm not talking about overall game plans, I'm not asking about or for strategies (most of which being offered fall into the overwhelmingly enlightened "Don't like it? Then don't let it happen" approach). I'm talking about mC'ing and OS, and how apparently mindless it is in VF4; my questions are rhetorical.

> Does Kage's db+K work against an expected shoulder ram?

god, why would anyone ever want to use that move? It probably doesn't work, regardless. More than likely I'll just get ass-reamed.

 

to be honest, you're just bitching..complaining like a hoe.. you're conjuring up these situations that most of the times you're not even experiencing or executing..and not once have i seen mashers break throws consistently or even twice...you obviously need a pimp. bitch.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

Well, when the name of both threads (on both forums VFDC & VP) is "VF4 Sucks" it makes me think you're talking about the overall game impression and leaving the discussion open to the game and not just "how much I hate this particular situation."

Of course, you warned it was a rant, but I assume you expected a response as well. And I gave a response. And yes, I'm basically saying, avoid the stupid situation if you hate it so much.

BTW is mC specific to a block counter? I've always thought it was just a general counter of the recovery. Though I notice you and Yupa and probably a few others always talking about it in the context of "off the block."

Oh yeah, what's the experiment in posting here? Sort of curious about that. More responses? More "scrubby responses" as evaluated by some? Kind of curious about it, but I thought it was an interesting topic on both forums.

About db+K, sorry, I was being silly and the image of it working in my mind was humorous to me. Sort of like using uf+P+G, but just much more silly. Especially if the opponent can tech roll from it (which I'm guessing they can--which would royally screw Kage I'm assuming).

As for OS and "off the block" mC'ing and just about anything guaranteed as well, I've always considered those to be "mindless" after practice and programmed implementation. To me, the effort applied to punching in option selects after attacking with certain attacks seems to be very similar to punching in guaranteed attacks after blocking certain attacks. The difference being that in a guaranteed counter, the situation happens and a result happens with some thought; whereas in a very likely throw escape (since in VF4 they seem to be your primary counter), the situation is another open situation that is as mindless or thoughtful as the players playing. In both cases, I think it can be mindless to just plug in what you know will work, so "mindless" is a concern to me in the situation following.

However, I'll agree with what I think you're saying, it's almost unrewarding to block a shoulder ram. Especially after having to neutralize what may follow with extra steps.

So am I starting to get to your point? You're frustrated that you're not being rewarded for blocking a powerful move and that's all. That a mindless shoulder-ram has little consequence (if it's blocked) if OS is applied, though that leads to an even situation.

Well, you're right, that's a frustrating situation. And I certainly would want to avoid it, because it would suck to be in that position. But I would hardly call it a big enough reason to say that VF4 as a whole sucks. (Because a shoulder ram doesn't always have to hit or get blocked, etc...)

Anyways, the thread(s) got me thinking more and more about the game. So I appreciate that. Just hope my responding to your rhetorical questions didn't get on your nerves/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

-Chanchai

 

Re: after akira's shrm

Yes, mC almost always refers to countering a move after blocking it, unless noted otherwise.

**In both cases, I think it can be mindless to just plug in what you know will work, so "mindless" is a concern to me in the situation following.**

hghhhehrhegghhg...now this is just semantics. Mindless as in the mC game in VF4 is so fluid and undefined and frustrating; doesn't follow the risk v reward rules seen in the earlier games. Might as well be FV or TK. Wheee.

 

**to be honest, you're just bitching**

No shit? I said that myself, in the first goddamn lines of the post, you fucking blind pederast walleyed mansauce-gargling piece of human detritus.

**you're conjuring up these situations that most of the times you're not even experiencing or executing**

Come to Boston or NYC and Shang or the NYC people will show it to you firsthand, you stupid whoremongering cock-gobbling twat.

Anyway...you've helped in the "experiment" greatly. k thx gg.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

First, if you block spot's shrm and hit him with a punch, it's because he's not blocking, he's busy entering throw escapes.

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Actually, Akira's ShRm is punch counterable by Pai. Spotlite cannot block it.

cheers,

 

Re: after akira's shrm

reversal/DTE seems very strong BUT there are always moves that are not reversalble.

If you are lion, try b+p+k. If you are wolf, try short shoulder. If you are Lei, b,f+p+k. All are pretty decent moves on their own. Or you can stil throw, how many throw escape can hit enter.

Regrading reversals, I think the timing is much tighter now. can you actually wait for a while then knee after the reversal... then again maybe not.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

regarding the not at disadvantage even if he break your throw part, I thnk you are wrong. The japanese overweight site have a whole list of initiative after throw escape and most of the time, the one who escape the throw have loads of initiative.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

Rich,

I was a little confused at first where you were going to go with this, since there are many good ways to beat out OS which I'm sure you know of. And I wasn't sure there was an argument against what you were saying--that in VF4, there are simply very few guaranteed counters against certain moves, especially compared to VF3.

However, let me enter this thread from a different angle--why AM2 made VF4 this way and why it is NOT Fighting Vipers or Tekken.

Back when VF4 was first rumored and that moves will have considerably less recovery time, I was concerned as it sounded as though VF4 was going to be more FV and Tekken than it ever was (not necessarily a bad thing, but, y'know). Then after trying it out, and after learning the throw system, I learned this was not the case.

Being able to counter throw after most moves is a gameplay mechanic that will elude beginners. You're playing against a guy who doesn't know what he's doing and mashing? Throw the guy. When you're attacking the beginner, the beginner would not have the right frame of mind to throw you, especially when many of your attacks seem to recover so quickly. The beginner has no chance. Compare this to VF3, where if the beginner blocks one of your attacks by accident, the chances of mCing you is high.

Yet, as Brian and Chanchai pointed out, the existence of improved defense creates a guessing game among better players--VF4 is just as yomi-dependent as it ever was in VF3, except now beginners don't get to participate.

This is the big difference between FV and Tekken. FV I'm not as sure about, but in Tekken, there's no way to punish Paul after blocking a deathfist, beginner or no. At least if the deathfist was in VF4, you'd be able to counter throw.

Sure, Shrm is still strong as hell, but hey, at least it's throw counterable. And there are ways to even the risk/reward nature of the move before and after the fact, which other people have talked about.

This is almost an afterthought, but to me it seems as though the flow the game will inevitably gravitate towards this direction from a game design perspective, simply because in each new game, characters get more throws and defense has to keep up (otherwise everyone's too good of a throwing character)!

Lastly, I'm not convinced that OS is as powerful as it sounds in theory. I have yet to see people mash the throw escapes and get away with it on a consistent basis (it seems more like luck and/or random escaping...not sure any self-respecting player would go for that). Dodging and throw escape mashing definitely does not work. I can barely fit in two throw escapes from an MC dodge (three is pushing it). Reversals have a far narrower hit window than VF3.

P.S. GS should no longer be in the foremost of Wolf players' minds...the key is to KS baby. KS is the 270 degree throw.

 

Re: the experiment

To see how many idiots like Junes would reply, even if I marked it clearly what I was doing (so far I've been surprised). Borderline trolling, maybe, but I think my complaints were pretty well outlined and written, so...

 

Re: after akira's shrm

I never take it hard

Well as llanfair pointed out, a blocked shrm *is* counterable with a punch. It doesn't matter if akira is entering throw escapes or not.

So my point was that when the first punch hits you can get a second (P,P), or you can get P,K (stagger). Then you dash in and throw. Sure it's not technically a combo, but as one of a few things to do after blocking a shrm it's pretty handy, and pretty reasonable damage (add a ground punch).

I was saying "remember" to Spotlite, I wasn't referring to VF3.

As for what Mr. Bungle hates, it seems to me he just hates the fact he doesn't automatically get monster damage when he blocks something. I don't know about other players but I don't punish every opening to the fullest. The mind game is more fun if sometimes you block and retreat, change the rhythm a little. The opponent has a "huh?" moment, then you can do something else entirely.

grib.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

**or you can get P,K (stagger). Then you dash in and throw.**

Umm...this will never work against anyone with half a brain (okay you might get it once or twice, but you can be sure your opponent isn't gonna let it happen again). And It's not even a stagger; it's just hitstun, and you're in a mostly neutral position after the PK. If you try to throw, the opponent can do _ANYTHING_ (except dodge or just stand there), and then you're left with squat.

**As for what Mr. Bungle hates, it seems to me he just hates the fact he doesn't automatically get monster damage when he blocks something.**

Who said anything about "automatic monster damage"? Look at all the other VF's - generally, moves that did moderate damage guaranteed at least a little bit of damage in return, when blocked. And...big moves that can do 60-100+ points guaranteed more damage in return (although there were some gruesome exceptions to this in some games).

Do people really have a hard time understanding how this risk vs reward system balances things out and prevents people from abusing moves?

But now, in VF4, you have stuff like Akira's dbpm which is one of the single most damaging strike attacks in the entire damn game, or Jeff/Wolf's knee, and the only strike attacks that are guaranteed is Px...

**The opponent has a "huh?" moment, then you can do something else entirely.**

I can't understand this at all. If someone tries to kill you, why would you want to back off with a giggle and start fresh? Sure the opponent is gonna go "huh?" - but then he'll say "Wow dude! Thanks!", because you just let him get away with murder. I mean, why turn down a good thing when it's handed to you? Would you also turn down a huge float to do a backdash and do something else?

 

I laughed when I first read this post...

Then I looked up some words in the dictionary and laughed some more.

Not only are Rich's posts entertaining, but educational as well!

 

Re: after akira's shrm

>this will never work against anyone with half a brain

Well the only good Akira I've played in VF4 is spotlite, who has at least 15/16ths of a brain And it works against him sometimes. People aren't perfect. Just because it's technically possible to block/escape something doesn't mean they will.

>Who said anything about "automatic monster damage"?

OK fair enough, bad paraphrasing on my part. But it seems the bit that upsets you most is that it's not guaranteed.

I don't have a problem with that lack of a guarantee. I do agree it's a bit rude that Akira is not particularly vulnerable after having such a powerful move blocked, but geez it just reminds me of playing against Jacky in well... any VF

Maybe the way to look at this constructively is not to let Akira shrm at all -- I mean, he has to crouch first right?

One other thing -- if you blocked it, it means you *didn't get hit by it*. That's something of a bonus in and of itself.

>and the only strike attacks that are guaranteed is Px...

And only by three characters...

So only P is *guaranteed*. But plenty of other stuff is *likely* (like a throw with an unpredictable motion).

>why would you want to back off with a giggle

Well a) it's fun and interesting. But b) because it can change the character and tempo of a fight, often to your advantage. If you can introduce doubt in the opponent's mind ("what's he up to?") that can only be a good thing. Oh and c) you can change the range. If you've just blocked a shrm you're obviously up close and personal. Backing off changes the range -- sometimes I like to get out of range altogether, since the "entry game" (where you get back within hitting range) is so interesting.

And besides backing off from a blocked shoulder is not the same as not punishing a float -- I always follow that up, unless I screw up.

In summary -- I do understand your point, but for me it's just not such a big deal. My goal is to condition spotlite into not abusing the shrm (not that he does, this is semi-hypothetical) in a pre-emptive manner (i.e., by hurting him when he crouches).

grib.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

> And only by three characters...

Two, for the shrm. The dbpm is Px counterable by everyone - that's all.

> because it can change the character and tempo of a fight, often to your advantage.

How exactly is in your advantage, "a good thing", to pass up free, deserved damage handed to you on a platter? This still makes zero sense at all.

> But plenty of other stuff is *likely* (like a throw with an unpredictable motion).

This is going in circles - I know other stuff is likely, but the thing I'm griping about, option select, reduces the likelyhood of anything even half decent to practically nil.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

>Two, for the shrm. The dbpm is Px counterable by everyone

oops, sorry should read more carefully.

>pass up free, deserved damage

Why is that a good thing? Well, first of all it usually isn't. Normally you want to take what you can get.

But let's say you're playing a *really* familiar opponent (I haven't gotten to this level with VF4 yet, but I look forward to it). Familiar to the point where fights are almost choreographed/rehearsed -- you know each others tactics intimately, and there aren't many suprises. One way (among many) to gain a psychological advantage is to be unpredictable. And one way to be unpredictable is to not perform the expected, obvious follow-ups. Another of my favourites, in the past, has been to simply block for 10-15 seconds, and not attack at all. In both cases, the reaction you want is "what's he up to?".

In many cases I've seen this kind of play affect my opponent. The momentary doubt -- the extra thoughts in their head -- can pop them out of "the zone" (and I'm sure you know what I mean by "the zone" -- however you define it it's not where you want an opponent to be). Their playing becomes slightly more stilted, wooden, and often they'll resort to safe, predictable techniques (reversal fodder).

I guess it's similar to bluffing in Poker, but it's also somewhat akin to passing up an available pawn in chess in order to capture the bishop later...

>This is going in circles

Agreed -- we simply have a different opinion on this matter Still, it's been an interesting thread, huh?

grib.

 

Re: after akira's shrm

**Their playing becomes slightly more stilted, wooden, and often they'll resort to safe, predictable techniques**

I don't see how that works...you're not mC'ing their attacks, so what's to stop them from using big power attacks? After all, if they're less afraid of you mC'ing, why would they resort to safety play?

There's no bluffing in VF, either. Your lifebar and time left is there to see for all. You can't win the pot back if you make one mistake or give them an inch, and if you make a mistake you can lose more than half your lifebar - and then you'll really regret passing up opportunities.

Anyway, I do understand your argument, but really, I don't think it'll get you very far at all. I really don't see how it's different from not following up a float or backing away after getting a stagger. You're only hurting yourself, and giving the opponent another chance.