VF4 Tactics Discussions, where?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Rolander, Oct 18, 2001.

  1. Rolander

    Rolander Member

    Sorry, I'm new to the forum here and etc. etc. but am I blind or are there very few detailed posts on VF4 tactics and gameplay?

    I have been playing with Pai almost exclusively since VF4 and would like to talk about playing her on this forum, but there seem to be very little discussion about VF4 Pai, or other VF4 charactors here. For instance, some guy put up a coupla comments about Vanessa, but nobody else have commented on it; and I'm pretty sure someone out there among all the VFers have tried Vanessa frequently.

    Are there class specific forums which I miss, or is everyone saving up their newly acquired knowledge for beating the stuffings outta each other?

    IIRC, someone is trying a Pai FAQ; I think I'm gonna email him/her ...
  2. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Try a search for VF4 pai... the forum is changing constantly and stuff comes and goes in waves.
    Like any forum there's good stuff and then there's a lot of noise. The lack of gameplay posts is also partially due to the fact that the game isn't in North America yet, except for literally one arcade. Also, Pai in particular is not popular. I wish she were, as she's my character. I can't play VF4 without driving for hundreds of miles, but I could give you 30 pages of VF2 and VF3 info on her.

    You'll find a TON of stuff on Kage in the past week.
    Wish I could say there was a hidden treasure trove of tactics talk for you (boy did that sound fruity) but there isn't. This board is really it. If you start a thread with some general info or a question, I can guarantee at leave five or six intelligent replies with good gameplay information in them.

    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
  3. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Oh, durrr, I almost forgot. Do you know IRC? It's sort of the universal system for chatting on the internet. If you can get on IRC, go to any EFNet server and go the #vfhome channel.
    Like the board, it's pretty much luck whether or not you catch us talking about VF tactics or Asian porn.

    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
  4. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    i may have missed the point, but is there any way to get these pages of vf2/3 pai info out of you? I'm planning on learning her and apart from movelists and the japanese tournament videos i still would like to learn a lot more. maybe at least i could get more from the videos as far as whats going on.
  5. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Hmm, I like using Pai a lot. At least in the test version. The early Yokohama clips (vf001-vf005) featured some good Pai flowcharts and all. But I understand that she has been weakened a fair bit in the ver.B, with the non-knockdown PPPb+K, db+K+G, and the shortened recovery time for the opponent after the stumble throw.

    f,b+P,P is a good sabaki move and can be a float starter on MC.

    D,f+P is a good float starter, but if the opponent wises up to the move, run in for the throw (particularly the CD throw because you can buffer in the CD and choose between the lifting palm and the throw).

    PPPb+K and PPPd+K can be delayed at various points, like P - PP - d+K (oldschool VF trick), and can be also be terminated halfway using G-cancel into a different move or a throw.

    Follow up floats with P ~ PPKK for mid/light and PPKK for heavy.

    If you stagger the opponent at close range, f+P will float the opponent for f,f+P,K followup.

    uf+K and uf+K,K scissor kicks have high priority. Abusing the second K can lead to bad situations if the opponent blocks, though.

    d+P, f+P are great interrupt moves. You can also zone a rising attacker using b+P, or hop over using uf+K then (TT) d+K.

    Use db+P+K to reverse a crapload of high and mid moves (don't bother with b+P+K... thanks to spotlite for pointing this out).

    Unfortunately, Pai's f+P+K and df+P+K inashis require you to guess between high and mid moves respectively, and I can't think of any guaranteed followups (not even uf+K,K), so I'd stick to db+P+K reversal.

    Erm, there's something about pressing P+G if the opponent is Pai as well and does a b+P+K. I vaguely remember this in VF3, but it's been a long time, so if anyone could help me out here, that would be great.

  6. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    **Erm, there's something about pressing P+G if the opponent is Pai as well and does a b+P+K. I vaguely remember this in VF3, but it's been a long time, so if anyone could help me out here, that would be great.**

    It's her reversal reversal. She does sort of a frankensteiner. Very little damage.

    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
  7. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Ah, thanks. I gotta try this out on VF4, it's been way too long since I last saw this occur. =)

  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I have been playing with Pai almost exclusively since VF4 and would like to talk about playing her on this forum, but there seem to be very little discussion about VF4 Pai, or other VF4 charactors here.

    To get a good gameplay discussion going you could start one on your own, and you're halfway there with this thread already.

    Like someone else mentioned, not everyone has access to VF4 and very few have played Vanessa (especially since she wasn't in the test version).

    Some things to get you started:

    P,P,P :: Don't be ashamed to use her punches. They are fast, they can save you from tight spots, and they recover decent.

    d/f+K :: Her long range mid of choice. You will stagger your opponent if they block crouching. Follow up with a buffered dash and throw.

    f+P :: Her short range mid of choice. Good for poking but does little damage.

    WS, K :: Learn how to CD well and use this move. It hits mid (in VF3 only in parallel stance, not sure about VF4) but is used primarily as a useful move to interrupt.

    u/f+K :: Use this as a flow chart starter. If you hit, you should have the advantage. Go for the throw, mid attack, low or punch.

    b,d+P+G -> f,f+K -> f+P -> f,f+P,K :: Obviously this would be quite a damaging sequence. This can be struggled out of, but it is difficult enough such that you can go for it even against good players. For the people who can struggle like a mofo, go for a throw either before f,f+K or f+P to change up. Or you can go for a mid attack of your choice if they can struggle and duck in time.

    FC,f+P+G -> A good, damaging throw. Use from a CD and alternate with the heelkick (WS, K) for a Bryan Fury-like guessing game.

    f,b+P+G -> The other throw you always want to keep in mind. Has R.O. potential.

    Float enders you could use ::
    P,P -> f,f+P, K

    You may even be able to tack on a standing K before most of the above combos, if high enough.

    Aight, that's enough from me for now. Note that I've only played Pai once in VF4 (test) so forgive me for any command errors and take what I've written with as much salt as you wish. Most of what I've written is applicable to VF3.
  9. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    b,d+P+G -> f,f+K -> f+P -> f,f+P,K :: Obviously this would be quite a damaging sequence. This can be struggled out of, but it is difficult enough such that you can go for it even against good players. For the people who can struggle like a mofo, go for a throw either before f,f+K or f+P to change up. Or you can go for a mid attack of your choice if they can struggle and duck in time.

    This no longer works well in ver.B, unfortunately. You could struggle out of it if you were fast enough in VF4test, but even braindead players can struggle out of this in ver.B (or so I've heard).

    Everything else is great, though /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

  10. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    lots of helpful stuff here. a few questions:

    d/f+4 : follow up with buffered CD into throw :
    - my take is that in the recovery frames of the kick you can enter d/f,d/f, so that the dash will come out instantaneously (hence buffered CD) ... or does this refer to doing a quick CD after the recovery to get her CD throw out?

    (its sad to hear that pai from the fighters net vids is no longer that strong .... those really sold me on her and the game. )

    -also, flowcharts: does this refer to something like a 'custom string' (in tekken...)? a custom string is a series of hits which aren't canned but go together in such a way to set something up, be difficult or unsafe to interrupt, i.e strategic use? realize its a pretty general question so i expect pretty general answers ...

    ive seen her TT d+4, how about her other TT attacks? I like that there are situations where you can hop over a rising opponent (very useful for ling in tekken), wondering what kind of options she has for this.
  11. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    df+K ~ buffered CD
    You can buffer the CD while the sidekick executes, and then as soon as the sidekick move has recovered, you can go on with the buffered heelkick (FC,n+K). You can also CD after the sidekick has retracted to do the throw. When you buffer the move totally depends on what you want to do... if you do it while the move is recovering, you can throw out the next move, but you don't get any range. But, if you start doing the CD towards the end of the move, you get to CD forward and then it becomes easier to follow up with the FC throw because you're in throwing distance.

    More like a series of non-canned moves that generally come out fast or have high priority, branching off into different possibilities, so you keep the pressure on the opponent by making him guess. For Pai, this would be something like

    uf+K -- uf+K (hits mid)
    uf+K -- df+P (hits low)
    uf+K -- PPPd+K (hits HHHL)
    uf+K -- PPP -- f+P+K+G (hits HHH then low throw)
    uf+K -- f,b+P+G (high throw against blockers)

    Basically, the uf+K has relatively high priority, fast recovery when blocked, and gives you a slight frame advantage if it connects, so you have a series of options as to how to proceed thereafter. None of the moves following uf+K are guaranteed at all, but it forces a guessing game that keeps the opponent on his toes.

  12. gribbly

    gribbly Well-Known Member

    >don't bother with b+P+K...

    What's the reasoning here? I must have missed spotlites post... what thread was it in?

  13. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    b+P+K reverses high only, db+P+K now reverses high AND mid.

  14. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    (I'm talking to the original poster here, not Feixa Q)

    Here you go man, you wanted Pai talk, you got it ;).

    I think one fo the tricks to using this board is that if there's a thread you're interested in, keep it active. Just because it's slipped back to the third page or whatever in a day or two, bring it to the top again. There might be people who missed it that are interested/have input.

    I know what you mean though, there is sometimes a lot of fluff talk, and good threads get little response sometimes; but like I said, keep it active and usually people will start to bite. I tried to start an in-depth Vanessa thread a while ago that fell on it's face a little, but I basically let it go. If I dug it up, people would probably have things to add.

    BTW I wouldn't be discouraged at all from using Pai, people in Tokyo were dominating with her on Ver B when I was there, and still are from what I understand.


    PS. when you say 4, do you mean K?
  15. Yamcha

    Yamcha Well-Known Member

    A few notes:

    PPP - I use these a lot, if only to rush the opponent, even in blocked or ducked under you still have a decent chance at getting away if the opponent is a bit slow or you can get the throw escape, or even throw yourself. Since a lot of people tend to crouch after this try following up with mid attack or scissor kicks. Adding a delayed sweep afterwards also gets people sometimes.

    u/f + K and repeat is a nice poking tool, don't use it too much though. Sometimes in 3 I would reverse after one or two if these, just to mix it up.

    f+K,K I sometimes get out instead of scissor kicks (damn SVGL sticks) but it hits mid and does decent damage. In the test version at least, f,f+P is a good OTB combo tool.
  16. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I don't have the VFA text files handy, so if I've written stuff on Pai before, it's not here... what the hell, I might as well do a big post. I'll put some info in this reply (using the ever popular move-by-move format) and if you need more, just tell me.
    Basic Pai Stuff, starting with VF3. Moves are listed by command, and they're not in order of usefulness, although the truly worthless ones are kept at the end. A summary follows each section and you can skip right to it for basic pai strategy if you want. Any terms or strategies you see and haven't heard of can be found at the end under "Stuff you see in this guide that you may not have heard of"...

    P(G) - a basic jab. It's quick, safe, and difficult to interrupt. Your all purpose poke. Use this when you're not sure what else to do.

    PP - starts many useful guessing games. It allows you to move close to an opponent and then inflict a basic guessing game on them: Midlevel or Throw. I'll cover which guessing games I like later in the strategy section.

    PPP - similar to PP, but riskier because someone with fast reflexes can interrupt you during the third punch if they duck. That's why I start flowcharts with PP. It also has slower recovery. It can be dodged more easily. It's still fairly safe, but I wouldn't use it as much as PP.
    Use it instead to counter attacks that recover quickly if blocked. If your opponent can't recover fast enough to block the first punch, all three will connect for a decent bit of damage.

    PK, PPK, PPPK - all three of these are not true combos (if the first move hits, the opponent can still block the kick) and are essentially worthless. PPPK might hit an opponent if they see the PPP and try to dodge, but most smart opponents don't do that. Avoid these attacks.

    PPP d+K and PPP b+K - creates a very risky and not very rewarding guessing game. The d+K ender hits low and knocks down. The b+K ender hits mid and knocks down. Both have adequate range and are usually not dodged easily, but the downside is that they have horrific recovery. Blocking the PPPsweep gives your opponent a free low throw, or they can respond with a powerful mid attack such as a kickflip. The PPPb+K is a little safer, but only because you recover a short distance from the enemy. A smart opponent will counter this with a strong long range attack such as a super dashing elbow or heelkick. They can also run in and throw you, but this requires a little more skill and you might luck out.
    Years of conditioning have most opponents blocking low after they see the PPP because of the sweep followup. If you plan on using either of these attacks, I recommend the b+K, it's hard to block on reflex (while the sweep is easy). Also, if you DO use PPPsweep, put a long delay between the PPP and sweep, try to catch your opponent just as he decides it's safe to stand up and start moving/attacking again.

    d+P - the ever popular low punch. When you're really close to the opponent, nothing's better for stuffing any attack or throw attempts and pushing them away. Don't be too predictable with this useful move or you'll suffer an elbow stagger, knee float, or a humiliating low side throw.

    d/f+PP (etc) - This is irritating, it's like a PPP combo that starts out hitting low. It doesn't have much priority, so it's not going to interrupt mid attacks the way PPP will, but it's great vs. scared opponents who stand and hold guard all day. It's not as safe as it looks though. d/f+PP and d/f+PPP looks just like PP and PPP, and you get the same followups. However, smart opponents know that d/f+PP and d/f+PPP recover much more slowly than PP or PPP do. In fact d/f+PP is throw counterable. The good news is that d/f+PP and d/f+PPP are true combos, i.e. if the first d/f+P hits all the punches will. General rule for using this attack: Don't. Unless your opponent is scared and you use it so rarely that he isn't aware of or doesn't remember the d/f+P, P, f+P combo and gets nailed by the uppercut.

    f,f+P, K - f,f+P is a very risky move that starts float combos if it interrupts your opponent's attack. Only do it when you're really sure they're going to try a slow attack (especially a high attack, pai ducks for a split second while the f,f+P is coming out) or else try it when you anticipate the ever popular low kick (you know about low kick-throw correct?). Doing a f,f+P, delaying for a split second, then doing the canned Kick followup is a trick that might work once against your opponent, and then never again. I never use the kick after f,f+P connects. If f,f+P hits and floats, you can do a decent float combo. If the f,f+P is blocked, you are throw bait (or whatever else your opponent thinks to do).

    f+P - a fast, fairly safe midlevel poke. It's sort of like an elbow but without the useful properties that real elbows have (this won't stagger your opponent if it catches them crouching). It's a pretty standard move for pai players to throw in there to mix up the P and PP harrassment. Careful, it's one frame away from being throw counterable. If you do one and it's blocked, you'd better be prepared to block or reverse a counterattack or throw.
    If you think your opponent is going to duck, why not do a sidekick or something instead? Using this is more for creating a "pecky bitch" style. It's frustrating to the opponent to get hit with it over and over, but it's not really all that useful or powerful. A pai player who is hellbent on winning probably wouldn't bother with this. I use it all the time. -_-

    K (K) - pai's standing kick floats if it hits, allowing for a free combo followup. It's not lightning fast but it's reasonably fast. The downside is that it hits high and you really have to catch the opponent during their attack for it to connect. Otherwise it is punishable if blocked or ducked. Use it as a surprise when you are pretty sure the opponent is going to attack, but you're not sure what they're going to attack with. It's a good surprise after uncounterable attacks are blocked. Have you ever screwed up with pai and done a hopping punch (the two handed overhead hammer thing) when you didn't mean to? A standing K after that gets blocked will work like 9 times out of 10. PS, you can get a second kick if you do K,K but don't ever bother. Getting one K is enough for a float combo or pounce.

    d+K+G, d/b+K+G - pai's sweeps. The d+K+G is a little slower and easier to block on reflex, but more damaging. You can usually ground punch after it, and some enterprising pai players will try a pounce, although I don't think that it's likely to work unless your opponent got hit really hard with the sweep and is lazy getting up. d/b+K+G is faster and will pretty much always net you a ground punch, so I'd use that instead. Either one hits low, knocks down, and pretty much cannot be dodged. Both are easily countered if blocked, so don't abuse them, even though it's really tempting.

    b+K+G - similar to the above, allows for OTB combo follows for pure style, for example b+K+G, u/f+K. f+K+G - A slow cartwheel that hits twice for mediocre damage. Never knocks down. Easily dodged. Also nails dodgers for good damage, can be followed with a high pounce.

    d/f+K - the single most useful move pai has. Pai's sidekick is fairly fast (especially for a long range kick) and cannot be countered if it hits or is blocked. If there's one move to abuse, this is it. It has great range, staggers crouching opponents, floats opponents on major counter for a combo, and again is pretty safe. If you do it predictably then the opponent will dodge it and punish you. Otherwise though it's hard to interrupt and if they simply block it, you're okay. You have lost initiative and will have to correctly guess whether they're going to attack or throw next, but if you guess correctly you can come out of a blocked sidekick without a scratch.

    u/f+K - single swallow kick. It's a quick hopkick that hits mid and never knocks down. You're better off using a sidekick for most situations, but the SSK has decent range and is a stylish way to irritate opponents if you like the pecky pai from hell look. If it's blocked, you can be thrown. If it's interrupted with a punch, you're in midair and it's like being floated for a free combo or pounce. Bummer.
    -u/f+K,K -double swallow kick. If this misses, you are sooooo dead, it has huge recovery. However it pretty consistently knocks down (Well, not 100 percent of the time but close enough) and the initial u/f+K comes out fast. That makes this the only fast midlevel pai has that A: doesn't require you to be crouching and B: always knocks down. So it's okay in some situations. A ground punch followup is not unlikely. I use this when I'm pretty sure the opponent is doing to do a throw escape or low kick. It's very consistent after you block your opponent's high rising attack, because most opponents do a throw escape or wail on the punch button after their rising attack is blocked. Who just stands and guards? I don't know if this can be dodged easily but my instincts say that it can.

    u/b+K - more useful than it looks. It seems to come out slow, but it has terrific priority, it beats both high and low punches. It also hits mid and knocks down. The recovery is poor, but you're far away from the opponent and may get away with it. Not likely, but it's possible. If you interrupt an attack with this move, dash forward and follow up with d/f+P.
    -K+G followup - will surprise someone who avoids the u/b+K and then runs in to throw.

    From crouch moves:

    FC, n+K (that's pressing kick with the joystick at neutral while crouching. In tekken-ese, it's a WS 4). The heelkick is one of the best moves in pai's arsenal, and the ONLY catch to it is that you have to be crouching to perform it. It's fast, hits mid, knocks down, and is completely uncounterable, although I think the recovery is slower in later versions. Last time I played it was a very, very solid attack. Almost an abuse move. It even hits dodging opponents. If it interrupts and attack, an u+P light pounce will connect.

    FC, f+P - in VF4 it looks useful, but in VF3 it's stupid. It looks fast and somewhat safe, but it isn't. It does little damage, the recovery is crappy, and it only floats the opponent if they did a fairly heavy attack. It won't float if it interrupts a high punch, which is of course the most useful thing you can possibly do with this move. If you anticipate a low kick, or you're facing a character with multiple low kicks and you just blocked one, this move will interrupt a second low kick for a decent float. Otherwise, I avoid using it. If it's blocked or dodged you can be punished.
    Moves to avoid:

    d+K (then K or d+K) - Pai is just about the only character in the game to get a crappy low kick. It does so little damage that she cannot use it for low kick MC - throw. The canned followups almost never hit and can be blocked by crouching. It's easily countered if blocked, as are the canned K (heelkick) and d+K (sweep) followup. In fact, the recovery sucks so bad that anyone can be interrupted by Pai's low kick and STILL throw her while she's recovering (it recovers high). Bleh.

    b+P -slow, low damage, no followups.
    d/b+P-cute, but worthless. Knocks down and may avoid attacks in some situation, but not really worth it.
    K+G - slow, easily countered, and hits high. Good damage plus pounce if it hits, which is never.
    f,f+K - useful in 4, but in 3 it's just a slow, long range high kick that knocks down. Better to use just K.
    u/f+K+G - a REALLY slow midlevel knockdown kick. You can be BACK thrown if it's blocked. Ouch.

    Hopping, jumping attacks: I don't recommend beginner pai players use them. They're high risk and low reward. If you get hit out of the air during a hop or jump, you can be reamed with a combo or pounce. Or both.

    Attack summary: If you can crouch dash easily and consistently, the FC heelkick and throw are great. Mixing up these two isn't a bad strategy. Otherwise P, PP, sidekick, throws, and reversals are Pai's main tools. The occasional sweep is good too. If you have a spazzy opponent, you can get a little crazy with f+P, u/f+K, and standing high kicks. If they're timid, you can do lots of d/f+PP and make them sad. Most of Pai's other moves are crappy. Most Pai players who play to win do PP, then either a sidekick or a throw. An alternative is to do PP, then crouch dash forward and force a guessing game between FC heelkick or FC throw. Smart opponents will hit pai out of the crouch dash here. Really elite players might try for a mid reversal and then a throw escape, which will defeat both options. That's why Pai needs the occasional d/b+K+G - to beat reversals. If your PP approach is too obvious and predictable, mix it up with running in and throwing, crouch dashing without an initial attack, or sticking out a sidekick if you think they will try to keep you away with a long range attack (such as their own sidekick).



    FC, f+P+G - One of Pai's only "Big Guns"... usually referred to by its command. Here is a throw that does decent damage and allows for a guaranteed ground punch followup. Its only catch is the fact that it only works from a crouch. Standing f+P+G sucks.
    Safe if reversed.

    P+G: competent opponents will consistently escape this one thanks to double throw escapes. No guaranteed followups, good for okizeme as the opponent's body ends up perpendicular to yours. If reversed, you're back to back and are not at risk.

    d/f+P+G: Surprise Exchange - a no-damage surprise exchange. You end up facing the opponent's back. No guaranteed followups, although u/f+KK is a good gamble. If reversed, you are giving your opponent a guaranteed side throw.

    b,d+P+G: Stumbling trip - almost no damage, but the opponent is left in a heavy stumble animation and pai can do some followups if they don't struggle. A dashing high kick will hit if they're lazy, and that can usually be followed up with at LEAST a pounce. Otherwise u/f+K,K is a good gamble (but again if they struggle it can be blocked). The best strategy I've seen after this throw is to have pai crouch dash towards the opponent and then do either a FC heelkick or a FC f+P+G throw. Since nothing's really guaranteed after the stumbling trip anyway, why fuck around with risky attacks like u/f+K,K? You might as well gamble on safe moves that aren't likely to be countered if they don't hit. Start out doing the throw after the stumbling trip, and when your opponent catches on to that pattern, start mixing in the heelkick.

    f,b+P+G: DDT - good damage, no followups, no okizeme since pai ends up grounded too. Reverses the ring if you have your back to a wall or ledge.

    b,f+P+G: Rollover throw - Okay damage, possible ground punch followup, and you're in a good position for okizeme as well. An underused throw.

    f,f+P+G: Average damage, no guaranteed followups, not especially good for okizeme.

    f+P+G: A crappy, low damage throw with an improbable animation. No followups, not especially good for okizeme.

    Low throw (f+P+K+G): like the d/f+P+G this gives you the opponent's back and does no damage. It's a little more favorable for Pai than d/f+P+G however, and a double swallow kick (u/f+K,K) is a good bet. Also, a lot of opponents dodge as soon as they realize Pai has gotten behind them. Crouch dash forward and throw them out of the dodge with the FC, f+P+G throw. It's a nice example of yomi.
    Side throw: crappy low damage, but a ground punch is guaranteed.
    Back throw: like the stumbling trip, but worse. Almost no damage. A canned K+G followup is possible and is guaranteed to hit. If you do a back throw, I recommend whaling on K+G to get the free followup.

    Throw summary: Stick to FC, f+P+G whenever possible, bearing in mind that if you block a high attack that is normally throw counterable, taking the time to crouch and then try f+P+G might mean you're throwing away a guaranteed throw situation (like after a high rising kick is blocked). To speed this up, use d/f, D/F to make pai crouch dash and put her into a near-instant crouch, then let the stick go and press f+P+G quickly for the throw. People who have experience vs. Pai know that two of her good throws (and a third crappy one) can be escaped by just pressing f+P+G. If a f+P+G throw is not feasible, b,d+P+G is a very good option. Follow it with the crouch dash guessing game described above. If your opponent is a poor struggler, a damaging followup is b+K+G, u/f+K (hits on the bounce), d/f+P (ground punch).

    b+P+K - reverses high attacks, both punches and kicks. As with most high reversals, it will work against certain midlevel punches and kicks (i.e. puntkicks, jacky's beatknuckle) and like other high reversals, it won't reverse two-handed/fisted strikes.
    Pai's high punch reversal is the least damaging one in the game, I'm pretty sure. You might get a ground punch after it, but it's still not that rewarding. I use it anyway just because getting reversed is demoralizing to any opponent. If another pai has her kick high-reversed, she can reverse the reversal ... a 'chicken' in Tekken. It's the only one in the game. Funny if it happens.

    d/b+P+K - a mid reversal, specifically for elbows, knees, and sidekicks, which are pretty common. Also works vs. some other attacks. A good reversal, use it in conjunction with a throw escape and you're protected from some midlevels and throws at the same time.

    f+P+K - pai's cloud hand... a very useful "universal punch reversal" that works vs. just about any punch except low punches. It's an inashi reversal, meaning it does no damage and simply deflects the opponent's attack. (specifically, it causes the attack to not hit and slows down the execution/recovery animation after).
    After f+P+K, a crouch dash f+P+G throw will sometimes work, and a high kick is a good bet too. I usually buffer a high kick after f+P+K because many multiple punch attacks will beat this reversal. (the first punch is 'deflected' but a second and third punch hit pai. By doing a standing high kick the second punch is interrupted for a hefty float and combo followup.)
    In the OB version of VF3, this is very useful because you could cancel the animation with another f+P+K immediately. Multiple f+P+K's cause Pai to spastically twitch as she deflects punches. She also avoids throws while doing this, which makes it pretty powerful compared to a 'normal' reversal. Naturally the move got raped in VF3TB, and so in that version Pai can only do one at a time, it takes a while to recover, and she can be thrown at any point during the move.

    Summary: smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

    Stuff you see in this guide that you man not have heard of:

    Low kick-throw. This applies to VF3 OB only. In TB it's toned down so that it basically is worthless. If you get away with it in TB, your opponent was napping. This is how it works.
    If your opponent does a low kick and it interrupts your attack, they may be able to throw you for free. This is because the low kick stuns you just long enough that you will come out of recovery a peasly frame or two after your opponent. If your opponent does a throw at the end of their low kick with perfect timing, it will grab you and there's nothing you can do about it but predict it and escape it properly.
    Wolf, Jeffry, and Jacky have perfect low kick throws. Kage and Akira have very good ones. Sarah's is okay, but not the d+K+E (a retracting low kick). Lau looks like he can do one, but he actually doesn't do it well. If he does d+K, K the second low kick can be used in this way. Shun theoretically can, but his low kick is weird because it doesn't advance him forward and so he usually won't be able ot pull it off. Lion cannot do it. Aoi cannot do it. Taka cannot do it. Pai can't do it.

    Double throw escapes - you're allowed only one throw escape normally when you're in a position where you're about to be thrown. The first one you enter will count, any others don't. However, if you enter P+G, then any other throw escape, you're allowed both. So double escaping a basic P+G throw and a command throw is allowed. Escaping two command throw (like f+P+G and b+P+G) is not allowed. And the double throw escape has to be done pretty fast to work properly. Abbreviated DTE.

    Reversal + throw escape: If you attempt a reversal in a situation where your opponent doesn't have a guaranteed throw, you can enter your reversal command and then immediately enter a double throw escape to do three things at once: reverse the attack, break the P+G throw, and break the command throw. Referred to as R-DTE (reversal -double throw escape).

    G-DTE: guard double throw escape - it's tough to time, but after certain moves are blocked your opponent is guaranteed a throw. If you time it correctly you can enter a double throw escape then immediately press and hold the Guard button. If done properly you will either escape the throw or block an attack.

    okizeme: pressuring someone after they are knocked down. When someone does a rising attack, especially if it's a high rising kick, you can dodge it and then counterattack and keep them down. You have to dodge correctly though. Usually you want to dodge towards their rear leg, but vs. Akira and I think Lion this rule is reversed. Rising sweeps are tough to dodge, you need good timing and practice. This works especially well if the opponent doesn't roll before kicking and if they have landed facedown.
    This is just one example of okizeme. Another very good one is to do repeated forward dashes to run over your opponent's body as they roll. This sometimes will carry you over their body so that you can get them to do a rising kick in the wrong direction (so you can attack their exposed back and keep them down). This works best after moves or throws that leave them sideways in relation to your body, such as pai's P+G throw or her d+K+G sweep. Certain moves also consistently carry you over an opponent's body. Pai's u/f+K is famous for it, try it the next time your opponent is knocked down in the position described above.
    You can also punish people during forward rolls. A forward roll leaves the opponent in a crouching position for a second. If you know they will roll forward, beat them down with u/f+K, K or u/b+K. Be warned that from long range, u/f+K,K will hit but not always knock down, and the opponent will get up and crush you. Also the timing in OB to do this is fairly lax but in TB it's tighter.
    Finally, blocking a high rising attack in VF3 guarantees you a throw, and blocking a low one guarantees a low throw. Remember that. Once you get the opponent trying for throw reversals, you can do better damage with certain attacks like K, K, ground punch or u/f+K,K, ground punch.

    yomi: correctly predicting the opponents actions. Usually implies successfully showing them up as well.

    Okay, I'll leave this at this much. I could also give you scads on VF2 Pai and a little on VF4 Pai, just ask. Digest this first though.
    I apologize also if you knew most or all of this, I couldn't get a sense of where you were at in VF so I played it safe and gave basics.

    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
  17. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    FeixaQ: actually thats kinda how i would define custom strings, you just put it in better terms than i did ;).

    so buffering into recovery sounds very flexible and useful. I suppose i will find that thread about the buffering system and read it over again ... anyways more short sample flowcharts with pai would help give me somewhere to start from.

    I've also seen no mention of her stances, as i guess most people are unfamiliar. in the fighters.net vids the pai player used a stance where she steps away, turns and flails her arms kinda ... would that be the sway step? if so then what is CE stance?

    edit : while i posted this creed's post came up ... thanks, thats a lot for me to read instead of studying >_< ...

    edit again: whew. any questions that arose while reading were eventually answered. I am entirely knew to VF but have read enough faq's to at least keep up with you are saying. The rundown of moves is very appreciated. her FC n K sounds a lot like ling's WS 4, which is great as WS 4 is one of my favorite moves ... if you post more i'd like more on okizeme, oki is a huge part of my T4 game and i'd imagine i will have trouble adjusting to VF oki. anyways i'd say you succeeded in aiming that at the right level.
    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by capercat on 10/18/01 11:39 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
  18. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I think I know ling's WS4, it's the vertical kick that sends you backflipping right? This is really really uncounterable, it looks like a tekken character's (knocked down 3,3,3,3,3) rising kick.

    Re okizeme: there are some excellent videos of it, if you have a fast connection I'd share some. Let me know. Otherwise get the VF archive. Basically, in VF, your grounded character cannot be touched. It's more like SF than TK in that respect. You can be touched juuust as you hit the floor with OTB combos, but that's just part of a combo, not part of pressuring someone who is getting up. When they're getting up, they are invincible until they choose to do a kick. If they do the kick, it's about 90% invincible. I can think of only one or two rising attacks that could be stuffed in VF3 OB and they were fixed in TB. Rising sweeps can sort of be interrupted if your character is doing an airborne attack that carries them over the move... for example anyone's hopping kick or sarah's f+K+G. Akira can do f,f+K (single jumping kick) and then another jumping kick in midair that hits rising sweeps.
    Otherwise rising attacks in 3 have insane priority and cannot be reversed. They are best beaten by correctly guarding them or dodging them.
    Some basic Pai oki tricks:

    When the opponent is sideways in relation to you (like after a P+G throw or sweep) do u/f+K, then another u/f+K. The second one usually carries you over their body as they roll. Quickly do E then while the opponent is getting up and kicking, execute u/b+K or u/f+K,K ... either should hit for decent damage and a knockdown.

    u/f+K is a great tool for getting over an opponent and making their kick go the wrong way.

    If they wake up to this and try to beat it with backwards roll, dash forward and then quickly choose either u+E or d+E to dodge their rising kick when you first see it start to come out. You can do this just by watching for their foot to start swinging if you've got good reflexes. Otherwise just try to time it when you think they will kick. If it was successful the kick appear to pass over pai's head and she is free to throw the opponent. It may come out as a side or regular throw depending on a lot of little things. Either way go for a 'good' throw like the stumbling trip, and if it turns into a side throw, oh well.

    The next fun oki thing that anyone can do is this. When the opponent is down, crouch dash as close as you can, then E into the screen. Then crouch dash forward again and then E into the screen again. Do one last crouch dash to get close. If all goes well, this pattern of movement will send you in a half circle around the opponent as they get up and kick. Their rising kick may miss and you should have a good clear look at the opponent's back. It all depends on your opponent rolling downward ('out of the screen') while Pai moves forward and into the screen. If the opponent rolls upwards you reverse the directions of your dodge to match. It takes practice to get the timing of the E's mixed with crouch dashes. You actually can do several of these rapid fire, with the dodges cancelling the crouch dashes and then the next crouch dash cancelling the next dodge. This is the essence of what is called Korean Stepping and doing it correctly will let you work your away around your opponent's prone body.

    If you block a high rising kick :
    - use a good throw like until they learn to escape it
    -then mix it up by crouch dashing (while they try a throw escape) and then doing FC, f+P+G
    -then if they learn to escape throws properly mix it up with a powerful attack such as b+K+G (follow with u/f+K, d/f+P) or else do u/f+K,K, d/f+P.
    Vs. lighties, standing K, PPPsweep may work.. or you may need slope.

    If you block a rising sweep: just do the WS heelkick. You'll nail them for decent damage and there's a chance for an u+P pounce.

    If they roll forwards: u/f+K,K will hit them if you do it immediately. If you try it on reflex you might miss, as they are vulnerable during the roll and go back to being invincible once they start the kick.
    If you predict a forward roll using psychic powers, a good trick is to do an u/b+K to stuff it. If you were right, you knock them down and do OK damage. If you were wrong and they try a rising attack, you will have backflipped out of range of the attack. It should whiff and you may be able to punish that whiff. Hold guard just to be safe though, in case they have long legs.

    I don't know if this works, but sarah can sweep under a high rising attack with her d/f+K+G sweep. It's weird because it doesn't hit, sarah's leg just passes through the opponent's ankle while their foot passes harmlessly over her head. Lau's f,d+K does the same. Kage's d/b+K sweep just avoids the rising attack and hits it as well. I don't remember seeing it, but it's possible Pai's d/b+K+G will allow you to duck under a high rising attack without getting hit (because your hitmask is different than it would be if you crouched and guarded). This would be purely for style though. If I thought someone was going to do a high rising attack, I'd try for a dodge followed by u/f+K,K.

    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
  19. alexchin

    alexchin Member

    Lots of thanks to CreeD. Nice post.

    (In VF4)Something about the b,d+P+G throw, I used to follow it up with f,f+K, f+P, d+K,K. Is it a true combo? It always work when I used it in matches, also, if opponent tech roll, the last K will put them down again. Just not sure in VF4 one can block the f,f+K, seems like they can't.

    Has anyone written a Pai, Kage or Lau Faq for VF4 yet? Someone post about a Kage Faq before but the link is not working...
  20. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    I have a rather slow connection, but thanks anyway.

    I realized that there were few ground attacks in VF from the start ... but from what you say it sounds like oki is more about setups. specifically, stuff about getting around/over the oppoenet to foil their rising attack is something not at all unfamiliar to me from tekken ... i now see which of my tekken oki strats will transfer well to VF. (though in tekken a rising sweep usually ensured your death)

    anyways, so then pai's d+K, d+K, D+K,K (i think) is OTB? its the 4 low sweep followup that i've seen in videos. nonetheless i have lots to try out with pai ... i'm sure i'll have more to ask once ive played her for a bit.

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