VF4 Tactics Discussions, where?

I dunno if what you did was guaranteed or not, I was talking only about VF3... VF4 is pretty different. I've heard that the f,f+K combos were tough to get out of in VF4 version A but much easier in version B... so it depends.


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Uhh ... ok, like some said, I'm halfway to starting a good discussion thread q

(Dang, I wasn't expecting such a thorough followup ...)

However, I'm currently interested in VF4 Pai changes and new moves, including her stances. So I'll start the ball rolling. BTW, I'm assuming the VF4 machine in Singapore's AMK Funland is the most recent one; Chris, Alan, anyone can confirm?

Old move changes:
- generally I feel that most old moves recovery faster to varying degrees. Some of the standard counters after blocking certain moves do not seem to work in VF4 now against competent. For instances, in versus, I had several occasions where my D+KK was blocked by a player Jacky yet he couldn't recover fast enough to f+PK me before I rise to do a standing block. On the reverse side, after I block Jacky's sweeps I couldn't lowthrow him before he rises either.

-f+K+G cartwheel seems to recovery fast enough to give Pai the initiative if it hits nows, though I suspect that maybe the few ppl I went versus were so used to the old cartwheel that they were trying to counter with slow high damage moves.

-otherwise, the 'Psycho Pai' still seems to work great (YEAH!)

New normal moves
- new f+KK has Pai doing a not-so-fast mid kick followed by a stronger hop kick. Not great on its own, though the 2nd kick seems to knockdown consistantly. Its real use comes in in the new canned combo PPKK where Pai does the midkick-hopkick after a 1,2 punch rush. This will help mess up attack levels for opponents trying to block Pai's punch rush and counter after the normal ending kickflip or sweep, especially since the ending kickflip no longer knocks down.

- u+K+G. Pai leaps really high up and comes down with a stomp. If it hits, Pai automatically backflips away from the floored opponent. Low damage and total lack of followups makes this nothing more than a surprise move. Pai is also very vulnerable if it's blocked.

- b+K. I think the best name for this is a reverse (rear arm/leg) crescent kick. The normal K+G should actually be described as a reverse SPINNING crescent kick. b+K isn't fast, has short range and hits high with little combo potential on its own. Its only use is in setting up the Circular Evade stance, which will be covered later.

- u+P+K and d+P+K seem to be useless at first sight; Pai just sticks out a leg to one side and hold the position for nearly a second, very vulnerable. After a few tries with it, my best guess is that it acts as a trip against a sidestepper (AI Lion happened to sidestep out of the screen just as I once tried d+P+K, causing Lion to go 'oops' and tripped up, lying on the ground. The next best guess is a sorta low kick reversal, but I have no concrete evidence for the second hypothesis.

- u,f,d,b+P+G is Pai's new front high throw. Thanks to Alan Tan for showing me. Anyway, both of us seem to agree that it's not worth much. I rather keep using f,b+P+G, f/d+P+G, f,f+P+G and my favourite b,f+P+G.

Stances
- b+P+K+G sets up the Sway Step stance. This is not considered a new move like b+K since b+K only leads to Circular Evade stance if d is tapped immediately after it. To use the Sway Step combos, the followup commands must be inputed soon after b+P+K+G otherwise Pai would then be considered to have simply turned her back (and then TurnTowards commands would be accepted). Sway Step will pull Pai back enough to evade most short-range high and mid-level attacks, though I suspect that she remains vulnerable to low kicks as one leg still lags behind her, possibly near enough to be hit by the former.

- b+K, d activates Pai's Circular Evade from standing. After the b+K, Pai stoops down really low to the ground, definitely defeat all high-level attacks and most mid-level attacks. However, she obviously remains vulnerable to low attacks. Again, like Sway Step, commands must be inputed quickly for Pai to use her Circular Evade combos otherwise she will return to standing position.

I would like to comment more about the combos for SW and CE stances, but I am still experimenting with them even in versus (obviously detrimental to my versus performance) so I prefer not to say much. All I can say is that, should the SW combos be allowed to get off, the mixing of attack levels can be fairly confusing to a guarding defender, especially if SW is comboed into CE. It definitely confused me q8-D

That's all I have to say about my experience with VF4 Pai for now. I doubt I will spearhead further discovery into Pai due to my lack of manuel dexterity in my fingers (one reason I never tried Akira).

 

f,f+K hits high, but if it connects, the puts the opponent in a stagger animation. Follow up with f+P ~ f,f+P,K. (If the opponent doesn't QR/TR, you can continue following up OTB with db+K+G or D+K,K)

u+P+K and d+P+K trip up sidesteppers and crescent/sweep attacks.

To struggle out of b,d+P+G ~ f,f+K ... combo, hold guard and wiggle the joystick back and forth. Be careful, though, some players will rush in to attempt a second throw if you consistently struggle out of the stumble throw but like to remain in a standing guard position.

 

Cool, thanks for the post.

PPK :: Does the f+K part of the f+K,K come out? If it hits mid, this could be a good string variant.

u+K+G :: Is this her alternative stomp? I bet it would work great too in okizeme--if you know the opponent is going to do a rising kick, do this early and the kick should whiff.

u+P+K/d+P+K :: I notice in clips that the Pai player tends to do this when the opponent is on the ground. Maybe it'll reverse low sweeps. I'm guessing the direction in which you do the trip would depend on which direction (clockwise/counter-clockwise) the kick rises.

 

I'm not sure u can call it the alternative stomp...
but U, K+G is pai's ' Jump really high up in the air..then Dive kick"

I suppose u can stomp ppl with it...~

<font color=red>~~~ 'Flock off feather brain, or u can stick around and find out the hard way!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif~~~'

 

What!? Really? Well you're right, that does kinda make b+P+K kinda useless

Hmmm... this seems too good to be true (speaking as a PAi enthusiast). Is this true for other characters' mid-reversals?

grib

 

Yep, works for Akira and Aoi and Pai especially well.

 

Re: Reversal levels

Er... hmm... spotlite?

 

Yup, PPK has Pai doing the slow midkick after her 1,2 punch.

I guess mix it up and a standing defender must wait past the 3rd attack before choosing to duck ...

 

Re: Reversal levels

me being someone trying out vanessa your comments would be well appreciated on anything to do with her!
(sorry i haven't been to an arcade in over 2 weeks!)

 

Re: Reversal levels

Isn't Vanessa a wonderful character? She's on my play regularly list (although I usually lose pretty quickly with her since I don't know what I'm doing just yet).

As for reversals. I try reversing on db+P+K against the CPU this lunch with Aoi and I never managed to reverse any high kicks or punches -- got loads of kickflips, mid level punches, and a sidekick or two. So I'm not sold on the db+P+K reverses high and mid, just yet.

Myke, any good flow-charts with Vanessa? I use her f+PKK, or f+Pdf+K quite a bit and I'm begining to get handy with those 270 throws. I'm also keen on Pdf+P (counter) low throw.


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: more questions.

have some more pai questions so i thought i'd bring this thread back up.

1) what attacks have pai ducking high punches, or any other high attacks during part of or the entire execution? so far, beyond sweeps etc, i've heard b+P (the lunging palm thing) - anything useful on MC? and perhaps d/b+P retreating chop. what about d/f+P? where will MC'ing with d/f+P get you?

2) I'd like to see (all in one place) what float and stagger options pai has. so far I know:
K
d/f+P,P,f+P
FC f+P on MC
f,f+P on MC
and as for staggers all i know is
f,f+K
b,d+P+G

as far as followups, i'm not too concerned yet, i'll get there.

3) any thoughts on f,b+P,P? for some reason i took rather well to this move. not sure but the second hit can be blocked after the first connects, however on MC are they both guaranteed? just wondering what players are thinking about this move.

 

Let's talk about Sarah. No one seems to use her exclusively like me. Why am I the only Sarah user? I've even gone to the trouble of listing my findings with her. Lau this Akira that Pai, Wolf blah blah blah...

 

Re: more questions.

1. Attacks that duck low punches:

b+P gives crumple animation on MC. Crumple is mega useful. At the very least, pai gets a free K,K combo or free u/f+K,K. Maybe something better. Also try a f+P+K+G low throw, although that's escapable and hence purely for style.

d/b+P in VF3 is the dodging punch. It will usually dodge and then counterattack punches, and in VF3 this wasn't that useful because it didn't really float high or recover fast. In VF4, it floats high enough for a free combo: d/b+P, low punch, f,f+P,K

Pai's f,f+P will duck under high punches and hit, but you pretty much shouldn't bother unless the move rules in VF4. If you do just f,f+P and float them during a punch, it was a miracle. You can then do a combo. If it doesn't float, you didn't hurt the opponent much. It would have been better to do f,f+P,K ...
but then if that doesn't hit, you're screwed. Plus by committing to f,f+P,K you give up all the combo opportunity a MC f,f+P gives you.
I only mention it to be complete.

d/f+P sucks a lot. It's just a low hitting punch, only risky and slow. It does duck high punches, but the best you can get is stuff like d/f+P,P, K (and I dunno if the K is guaranteed just because the d/f+P,P connects. Probably not. Think of it as a risky PPP combo that will duck under other PPP combos if you see them coming.

Pai's FC, f+P is the tool of choice to beat high punches, but I don't know if it floats from interrupting one punch in VF4. It didn't in VF3. It's still a great move and probably should be abused in VF4.

And of course either sweep works against high attacks of any sort.

2. float and stagger followups... pai combos are probably posted somewhere.
Typical pai combos after a float are
-PPPsweep
-PPPK (if they're high enough)
-PPKK (the new combo you see in movies a lot, doesn't need such a big float)
-P(or d+P), f,f+P,K
-P, u/f+K, d/f+P.
-P, P, D+K,K (low kick-sweep)

After a float d/f+P,P,f+P ... I don't think I've ever seen it used.
After a stagger d/f+P,P,f+P sucks. The f+P is a great float move, but it can be blocked even if the rest hits.
Typical Pai stagger options are:

1.crouch dash forward, throw. (throw can be D,f+P+G for good guaranteed damage or stumbling trip for frustration. b,f+P+G is fairly strong too)
2.crouch dash forward, heelkick. For when they start escaping throws or struggling fast enough to hit pai before she throws them.

(and those are pretty much all you need)

You may also get lucky with FC, f+P.. but in this case I recommend heelkick because it's quick, uncounterable, damned hard to interrupt, and always knocks down (which D,f+P does not). When the heelkick MC's, a pounce (probably a high pounce) is guaranteed.

3. Dunno about it, except you have JUGGERNAUT SUPER ARMOR MUHAHAHAHAHA!@@!@! ... yah it definitely looks like the second hit is guaranteed if the first hit MC's.

 

Re: more questions.

so the two moves i listed, the throw and kick are the only moves that cause a struggleable stagger?

anyways, you confirmed my feeling that the FC f+P felt like it could be abused. anyways thanks for all the detailed info you've given in this thread.

now if i could just CD in after a stagger with some semblance of timing ...

 

Re: more questions.

oh, I was misreading maybe.... you wanted moves that cause a strugglable stagger?

As far as I know pai has the sidekick stagger, stumbling trip, and that's about it for staggers. Bummer eh? She's always needed an elbow and Sega doggedly refuses to give her one. The Man is keeping mah woman down.

 

Re: more questions.

Adio: OK then... I haven't got a chance to play VF4 yet, so how does VF4 Sarah's float ability compare with VF3 and VF2? (does MC hopkick->flipkick still work, can you combo after normal hits like VF2, etc.)

 

Lau this Akira that Pai, Wolf blah blah blah...

And don't forget about Kage...

Why not try another character for a while? I'm not suggesting you switch characters, just test the waters a little bit, ya know?
And you're not the only Sarah user. I started out with Sarah in VF1. And there's a very good possibility that someone else on this board uses her, too (Yupa maybe?).
Really, I'm not trying to flame. But I find it interesting that you don't at least mention another character's name, let alone talk about them.

 

Re: more questions.

capercat, don't forget Pai's sidekick; that thing floats quite a lot.