VF4 Team Battle changes?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ice-9, May 7, 2002.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Relax, this is conjecture only. =) Most of us have heard of rumors of at least one more revision yet to be released. To spark some debate, what are some of the changes and tweaks you'd like to see made? In some sense, I suppose the implied discussion is identifying what is too strong, too weak, undesirable, etc.
     
  2. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    maybe shun got a little too toned down from rev B to rev C? i don't play the ps2 version, but from what i gather, too many of his good moves were made to be special mids; maybe make a couple of them mids again.

    i dunno; i can't really think of anything else.

    bring back jeff's d+K+G crumble stun?
     
  3. J_Chuang

    J_Chuang Well-Known Member

    -Make akira's elbows have the same rigour as their vf3tb counter part. (SDE blocked => throw counterable) Too much reward for a non throwable move.

    -Make Pai's stances usable instead of eye candy (and not a very good one at that too)
     
  4. Akebono

    Akebono Well-Known Member

    Make akiras Knee not throw-counterable, Too hard of a move to be thrown if you pull it off.
     
  5. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Akira: Make SDE throw counterable. They did it to Aoi, they can at least do it to him.

    Aoi: Tweak up f,b+P and db+P. They're useless. Making db+P+G TRable (still 45 damage) would be consistent too.

    Jacky: Allow G-cancel of the taunt after flipkick, to stop the punishment after TR.

    Jeff: Make a TRed b+P+G do the full 60 damage. It's not right for a wrestler to have less damaging options than Aoi.

    Kage: Make d+P+K+G faster. Manual stance entry should be at least decently fast.

    Lau, Pai: Tweak up K+G. It's overshadowed by b+K+G.

    Sarah: Make G exit from FL faster than P(G). See Kage's entry /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

    Shun: Make u+K beat low punches. With that restored, he can deal with his other new weaknesses.
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Akira: Px counter SDE. DJK already lost some damage, but decrease it further so that only someone with DLC ability can do decent damage after a crumple.
    Lose the crumple after d/f+PK and make it a low float. Reduce damage of d/f+P+G by 10 points, so that akira pretty much has to get MC's or the tough ST-sgpm-dbpm combo for damage.

    Lau: Make recovery on PPPsweep suck so much that you can TR and smack him one after float --> pppsweep connects. Even tho I play lau, I'm so tired of that combo. Make D/F+PPPP do less damage, no reason for lau's PPP to be more damaging than anyone else's. The D/F+PPP sequence is slightly over 1/4th of your lifebar. Make some requirement for successful b,f+P leg flop combos. Maybe just increase the recovery a hair so that lau's Pxxx won't hit, but d+P will. Not that it would matter much, but something that makes b,f+P ---> P,b+P, P harder or impossible.

    Kage: Bring back the utility of running slide, or maybe make it track TR's somehow so that not TRing is the only way to avoid running slide combos after, say, heelkick MC. Restore b,b+K+G knockdown, Kage deserves at least one good low attack. Make d/f+P irreversible. Increase damage of rising knee or find some other tweak that makes the difficult TFT combos more rewarding. Increase utility of some of the stupider new kicks, or at least make them quick enough to be usable in a typical float combo.

    Wolf: Leave him alone.
    Jeff: Give jeff a guaranteed TR-buster, so that the opponent must constantly be in fear of TRing. Something that would make it so that TRing the b+P+G will hurt just as much as b+P+G ---> pounce. If jeff could consistently land something like knee, low punch, DE upper, TR buster vs an opponent who rolls after the upper, he could land roughly 45-50% damage in one combo, making him a nasty MC threat.
    Make D/F+P+K, P MC a guaranteed XPD/other throw. As it is he's +2 after it. Make threat stance --> K cause stomach crumple without an interrupt. Bring back the quirky property of his DE---> upper (I dunno, maybe it's still there) whereby the longer you delay the canned combo, the quicker the upper recovers (thereby setting up the old DE-->upper-->XPD from VF2 again).

    Pai: bleah, I dunno, I like the design so little these days. Make PPf+K faster and safe, so that it's similar to jacky's VF2 PPelbow. She can easily stagger crouchers and get a reward without committing to a full PPKK. Make K,Pxxx have the same properties as d/f+P, meaning she can go into any d/f+P string afterwards. K,P,P,f+P ... HLHM. Make f,f+P her best float tool, maybe by making it not need a MC to float, so she can be a float'n'combo character like her dad. As a tradeoff, maybe make it +10 rather than +8 recovery, so that opponents don't have to be perfect to punish her after it. Make the sidekick MC leave the opponent closer to set up a flowchart rather than crouchdash-throw every time. Maybe leave it close enough for f,f+P to connect easily, creating a float-or-throw situation.

    Shun: Restore u+K so that it can still wipe out low punches. I don't know enough to say more, but shun players complain a lot about that one. He shouldn't have to try a K+G to eat up low punches.

    Lion: Make recovery of TT mid punch high, so that even if it hits lion's in trouble. Increase execution time of b,f+P+K slightly. Make b, d/f+P crumple on MC only.
    Lion's actually pretty much fine as he is, I've been seeing a lot of chibita I guess.

    Jacky: P+K, P, K ... second P should whiff if there's no MC from the P+K. Maybe the kick can still hit by scraping the opponent near the ground, giving jacky some reward for landing it even without a MC. Change PP--> low kick to PP--> low backfist. Make low backfist MC foot crumble, but make the recovery crappy enough that only a few attacks can take advantage of it (eg the canned sweep).
    Lose the ver. C change to f+P, P that makes the second hit beat low punches. Make high backfist crumple not guarantee K,P,d+K (like opponent crumples too fast for high kicks to hit, or HBF recovers too slowly. I dunno how easy it is to struggle out of, but the MC D/F+P --> elbow -->backfist --->sweep combo seems nearly canned and should be avoidable without breaking your fingers. Make it so that knee, Px requires a MC.

    Sarah: I'm tempted to say leave her alone, I haven't played with her enough but she seems to have to work for her damage.

    Aoi: make d/f+P+K +8 on MC, I've always wanted her to be able to do the guaranteed throw. It's not like the opponent has little chance of avoiding the low throw here, so it wouldn't be horribly unfair or anything.
    Make b,b+P+K have little recovery, like -6 when blocked, so that aoi can do lots of poking with it. It's not all that fast anyway, so..
    Give aoi an escapeable followup to the f,u variation of her multi (the second hit). With only one ender, and an escapeable one, the mind game will be much the same. The second part is more damaging after f,u but b,d puts aoi at a 50/50 chance of inflicting even more damage. By adding the one escapeable followup after f,u, the opponent is discouraged from mashing and must escape with correct timing... i.e. if they're expecting b,d+P+G and mash d+P+G repeatedly, they will not only eat f,u+P+G... they will eat the followup as well.
    Make f+P, P -8 rather than -10, so that it's a fairly safe, almost cheap Mid-mid poke. Maybe increase the execution of the second part slightly to balance it out, so that interrupting between the two strikes isn't tough.

    Lei Fei and Vanessa: Don't know. The lei fei low kick stagger has always bothered me, but I feel like I might just be whining because it seems to break the rules. Some of his basic strikes seem to do too much damage, but checking his movelist nothing stands out really except b+P,P ... 46 pts total as a followup to a crumple.
    Give vanessa something that floats. I know she was intentionally made to be a crumples'n'flop character, but having to use that silly tornado kick to land a float combo... it's just... unappealing.
     
  7. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Hmm..the only character so far I've had any sort of experince with thus far is Sarah.
    Give her a few more strings from her FL stance...I would like to see her get another throw that does around 65 points or so...something creative...
    Also, give her a few hand --> foot string combos.
     
  8. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    (cough)...

    add 2 new characters, one judo and one muay thai.

    release it in the arcade in winter, follow up in spring/summer on ps2, not x-box.

    /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

    Spotlite
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    This is in reply to a bunch of stuff (lots of it common among people), so I'll just add this post as a reply to my original post.

    AKIRA:

    I'm actually fine with keeping SDE non-counterable. It's what gives Akira personality, and I think the three Fs required is enough to keep this move from being abusable. However, I do wish they would make it completely linear. Perhaps it already is, but it does feel like it does track a little bit if you dodge towards Akira's stomach.

    I'd like to see his b,f+P+K throw counterable, however. It's mainly used to punish TRing and whiffed rising kicks anyway.

    What has always bothered me about Akira is how the DJK takes so much damage. I hope the DJK either takes less damage or AM2 makes it very difficult to get the second JK to hit. I.e. the amount of delay has to be precise to make both JKs hit. That would introduce a little bit of skill to this move.

    JEFFRY:

    I actually like how Jeffry changed in Version C. The Version B Jeffry just seems too flexible for the big, slow guy archetype.

    Jeffry does NOT need to make his damage potential higher. knee > P > b,f+P+K > pounce on MC takes over 50%, and his P > DEU on MC takes over 40%. However, I think it's a good idea to make stance K crumple on normal hit, but AM2 would have to make sure stance P is linear.

    I would make Jeffry's b,f+P throw-counterable. In exchange, it would be nice if Jeffry could have a true anti-LP attack.

    KAGE:

    Make his JM sabaki crumple only on counter. Make his JM sweep execute faster. f,b+K a true middle attack. He should NOT have his Version B b,b+K+G back; it's way too good.

    No need to make d/f+P irrerversible. Creed, you do know that if the opponent tries to reverse an elbow, the d/f+P won't be reversed right?? This move is already quite strong, no need to make it even more so.

    LAU:

    P,P,P,d+K punishable on floats? WTF? Hell no. Creed, you do know that P,b+P,P ground combos are stance dependent right?? Actually most of Lau's better ground combos are stance dependent. However, it would be nice if Lau could have an alternative air combo that's difficult to do but takes more damage (or make his other combos take less damage). For variety's sake.

    Robryt, why make K+G good? Lau's f+K+G has already been improved in Version C.

    SARAH:

    Making G-canceling the FL faster than FL P would make Sarah WAY too strong. Definitely a big no-no. Just think about it. Her FL is extremely powerful...if anything, it should be weakened, not strengthened.

    I would take out Sarah's b,b+P,K > d/b+K combo...it takes way too much damage. I would also decrease the damage of her FL P+G to 40 points.

    PAI:

    I think Creed wants to make Pai overpowered. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif I like her as she is...she's great. Maybe make that d/b+K+G recover faster, though she should still be at disadvantage on normal hit. It would be interesting if they make b+K a sabaki. In return, f,b+P+G's damage can be reduced to 50 points.

    SHUN:

    u+K to take more damage, but I don't think it should beat low punches. He'd be too strong. Perhaps make u+K > f+P+K more difficult to punish from a TR...maybe make the f+P+K float the opponent further?

    I wish AM2 would make the backfist from chouwan back to VF3's command of b+P. He's actually easier to control that way, IMO. Ho ho...here's an idea: make the backfist from chouwan crumple on MC. That might be a little too good though.

    AOI:

    Make b,d/f+P back to a true middle hit. This will strengthen Aoi's throwing game. Think about it.

    Although I like the idea of making b,b+P+K uncounterable, it would be too strong if it was...remember you can cancel it so good players should be able to watch carefully to see whether it would hit or not. Maybe make b,b+P+K's recovery faster, but definitely throw counterable at least.

    LION:

    Make his sabaki easier to punish.

    LEI FEI:

    Err, Creed, nothing is guaranteed after that low kick. What rules does it break?
     
  10. Bu_Jessoom

    Bu_Jessoom Well-Known Member

    Hmm, although I admit Akira is very strong, I will still be greedy and ask for something. Sometimes it annoys me that I can't land a regular elbow after blocking a low attack! Sure I can use a dlpm instead, but an elbow provides better followups after the stagger. His side kick isn't fast enough for that either. I would love a way to cancel the crouch with no frame loss and land an elbow at the same speed. But like I said, I am probably asking for too much /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif.

    Other than that, Shun needs re-powering up like everybody is saying. I haven't played him, but I am considering it for some time in the future.

    Other than gameplay changes, some extras would be nice. Probably a version with online capabilities (One can hope!), or maybe even newer items and faster loading? And please let's not have it on X-Box.
     
  11. American_Pai

    American_Pai Well-Known Member

    My scrubby 2 cents:

    Throw Range-Is it just me or is the throw range is too long? God knows I love to throw but to me it's just crazy for the something that fast to come with such a long range. What was wrong with VF3tb's throw ranges?

    Nerfed sweeps-Some characters sweeps are just too nerfed (Aoi). They do shit damage, hardly any advantage if they hit normal, can be teched on counter hit, and can be raped after if blocked. Why?

    Delays-Some moves have idiotic delay times where you can wait forever and still have it come out (Jacky's d+K+G, K). This combined with increases throw ranges lead to alot of no talent mix-ups.

    Major Counter Damage-It seems a little too extreme when compare to normal hits. Maybe I'm too used to Kumite Mode.

    Ringout's-Bring them back to be more like the old VF's. There's too many situations where your opponent should've fell out but magically stay in.

    Shun-I hate the new drinking rules and I wish it was back like VF3tb. Where's the fun in playing Shun when you get penalized for doing the cool shit that made you want to play him in the first place? If they did it to keep Shun from turtling I think it was overkill with bounce physics in VF4 practically guarantee you will hit him off the floor. Fix that retarded looking PKG handstand after a sacrifice kick. Also make b,df+PG hurt more.

    Lei Fei-Give this fool some recovery time. I don't like having to block 800 times before I can think about moving. His throws hurt too damn much.

    Sarah-Tone down that Flamingo nonsense. She's almost's as bad as Lei Fei but without the insane damage.

    Vanessa-Give her another move in her tackle so she can least have a 50/50 mix-up. Remove the push out on her f+P in DS.
     
  12. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    "Throw Range-Is it just me or is the throw range is too long? God knows I love to throw but to me it's just crazy for the something that fast to come with such a long range. What was wrong with VF3tb's throw ranges?"
    Man, I can't believe I forgot to state this also!!

    Oh, for Jeff - give him some counters. Good god, his style has some pretty fundimental counters and holds that are just non-existent...maybe give a follow-up to d+p+g throw to where he can pound them in the face?

    American_Pai - I am with you on Shun as well. WTF was so wrong with laying on the ground? Loosing dp for every time you do that is just plain wack. I also agree with Ice-9 in that his chowan back fist combo should be reverted back to its vf3 tb state.
     
  13. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Aoi: She needs at least one combo that can be done from a long distance. Her bb P+K doesn't have enough reach. Otherwise, I think she's fine.

    Shun: Take him back to version B, on all points, except damage -- meet halfway between Ver. C & Ver. B. Add a new mid attack. Give him a sabaki.

    Lion: Fine

    Lei Fei: Another low attack. I like using him, but some of his combos do way too much damage.

    Vanessa: Some of her recoveries are horrible... but on the flipside -- some good.

    Kage: Weaken his evasive attack (the punch one) (or make it high, not mid). Weaken his ability to ring out after tossing the opponent in the sky -- that's just fucking ridiculous. Make it impossible to throw over fences.

    Wolf: Shorten the distance of a couple of his throws take to execute, mainly his main twirly tossy thing. Take away one low throw (nobody else has 3, and he seems to do ample damage with just normal attacks). Greater distance between fighters after he forces opponent to rise.


    Akira: Weaken damage on the FFKK after crumble -- very often abused. Ability to float seems a bit ridiculous - while he's technically the 'hardest' character, once you find someone good with him, it seems they win all the time.

    Sarah: Remove the ability to abuse the flamingo. This is just a hassle if someone gets the chance. IE -- make evasive attacks easier to pull off. Weaken her ability to unload after a floater -- she can easily take off 50% of someone's damage after a floater... disgraceful.

    Jacky: Remove -- 'nuff said. If not, remove his ability to grab any punch (or make it high only).

    Lau: Reduce his useable 'range'. He seems very fast, powerful, and can start a number of attacks from across the ring, easily sucking the opponent in.

    Jeffry: Weaken some ofthe low throws. Greater distance between fighters after he forces opponent to rise.

    Pai: She has reversals, low throws, several staggers, a kaitenkei (swooping...not sure what you call it in English) build-up attack (not sure what you call those in English either) as well as a viciously long range despite her small limbs. Something must go... and fast.

    Damn.... that was long.
     
  14. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Kage: Weaken his evasive attack (the punch one) (or make it high, not mid). Weaken his ability to ring out after tossing the opponent in the sky -- that's just fucking ridiculous. Make it impossible to throw over fences.

    Kage's whole character was built around this one trick, the TFT... ever since VF1. I think we should stick to suggestions and ideas that could concievably happen. I don't like akira's f,f,f+P ---> f,f+K,K... but I don't say "well in the next version akira should have no elbows" /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Jacky: Remove -- 'nuff said. If not, remove his ability to grab any punch (or make it high only).

    I always laff when people claim jacky's inashi reversal is cheap.
    The guy has to do NOTHING AT ALL FOR IT TO WORK. Sure, the computer can psychically use it any time, but who gives a shit about what the computer can do with the movies? In real life a human who does it is leaving himself open to:
    Throws
    Elbows
    Knees/other float combo starters
    Any non-high-punch-type-crumple/flop attack.
    any low attack.
    Any kick.
    Any running attack.
    etc etc etc.
    It's like any other reversal. If you guess what's gonna happen, you get a reward. If you try the reversal and guessed wrong, you eat the next attack or throw.

    she can easily take off 50% of someone's damage after a floater... disgraceful.
    You're nuts, tragic's whole combo video had one combo that did 100 pts of damage. She can't do it easily either, she needs a wall and a light enough character. She's lucky to do 40%.

    Lau: Reduce his useable 'range'. He seems very fast, powerful, and can start a number of attacks from across the ring, easily sucking the opponent in.

    Eh? sucking them in? Like a vaccuum or something?
    ehehe just screwing with you. Yes, he has a few decent ranged strikes, mostly just the d/f, d/f+P. I'll agree lau can put a hurt on you and without breaking out a thought.

    Jeffry: Weaken some ofthe low throws. Greater distance between fighters after he forces opponent to rise.

    eh, his low throws are identical to wolf's, within 5 points... should wolf get crappified ones as well? I dunno, low throws are fair because smart opponents can escape them, and even if they're not escaped, it takes some dexterity/reflexes to get a 'surprise' low throw (as opposed to low throwing a blocked PPPd+K).

    re:pai
    Something must go... and fast.
    Lol, which one of those cool attacks she has does 30-40% damage? I couldn't find it. She's the worst in the game, let her keep her moves.
     
  15. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    P,P,P,d+K punishable on floats? WTF? Hell no.

    Why not? It's so dull. The japanese are ingenious chaps, they'll figure out an alternative. Something ending in d+K,K no doubt.
    =============
    P,b+P,P ground combos are stance dependent right?? Actually most of Lau's better ground combos are stance dependent. However, it would be nice if Lau could have an alternative air combo that's difficult to do but takes more damage (or make his other combos take less damage). For variety's sake.


    See, you actually agreed with me, you'd just want it handled differently I guess.
    b,f+P ---> P,b+P, P might as well be a canned combo, it's not stance dependent at all. You're thinking of the u+K, b,f+P, d+P, upkn, spkn, which is just about the only combo that really needs a correct stance. And that's just so you can eke out a hair more damage than a non-stance-dependent bread'n'butter. If you want to play it safe you can do P,b+P, P instead. Or d/f+PPPd+K (first and last hits only I think). Or d+P, double low kick. Etc.

    LEI FEI:

    Err, Creed, nothing is guaranteed after that low kick. What rules does it break?


    I know. It breaks the rule that low attacks don't generally start staggers. The only other one in the game is wolf's, and that's probably just so that if it doesn't knock down, you can't easily punish wolf with a low throw or elbow or whatever else.
    Lei fei's is genuinely useful and it's a fairly strong guessing game stemming from a low strike ... thrust kick combo or d/f+P+G throw combo. VF's basic game system seems to revolve around the idea that blocking high is generally better than blocking low, and no one low attack is especially damaging, or safe, or even an assured knockdown (at least not without risk).
     
  16. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    b,f+P ---> P,b+P, P might as well be a canned combo, it's not stance dependent at all. You're thinking of the u+K, b,f+P, d+P, upkn, spkn, which is just about the only combo that really needs a correct stance. And that's just so you can eke out a hair more damage than a non-stance-dependent bread'n'butter. If you want to play it safe you can do P,b+P, P instead. Or d/f+PPPd+K (first and last hits only I think). Or d+P, double low kick. Etc.

    <hr></blockquote>

    It is stance dependant. Don't believe? Go try it out.

    And for those who hate SDE. Why don't you hate chouwan? It floats on normal hit and ALOT easier to do combos on normal hit than SDE. SDE(normal hit) -> double palm isn't really easy to do at all and it can't hit on all characters. Chouwan is uncounterable same as SDE. SDE only got 1 slight advantage that is able to stagger crouching opponents. SDE -> DJK only do 74 on MC. It's almost like a normal hit chouwan combo. So if you want to make SDE recover slower, why not make chouwan recover slower? Oh ya chouwan recovers at -2 frame on guard....... SDE recovers at -6 frame on guard
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    See, you actually agreed with me, you'd just want it handled differently I guess.
    b,f+P ---> P,b+P, P might as well be a canned combo, it's not stance dependent at all. You're thinking of the u+K, b,f+P, d+P, upkn, spkn, which is just about the only combo that really needs a correct stance. And that's just so you can eke out a hair more damage than a non-stance-dependent bread'n'butter. If you want to play it safe you can do P,b+P, P instead. Or d/f+PPPd+K (first and last hits only I think). Or d+P, double low kick. Etc.


    Err, of the combos you mentioned, d+P, double low kick is the only non-stance dependent combo. Hmm, it's also the crappiest...you might as well just do a pounce.

    Lei Fei should have that low kick because it isn't as easy to throw with him. Further, he doesn't have very many throws.
     
  18. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    SDE only got 1 slight advantage that is able to stagger crouching opponents.

    Wah-lau, this is a big advantage! Hey Wilson, is doublepalm after guaranteed if you stagger with SDE?
     
  19. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Creed, you do know that if the opponent tries to reverse an elbow, the d/f+P won't be reversed right??

    <hr></blockquote>
    I don't understand this ice-9 comment. If Pai, Akira, or Aoi for instance input db+P+K, it will reverse either an elbow or the df+P (or any other MP). Does the remark have something to do with the timing of when the reversal command is inputted??

    For those complaining a revision shouldn't go to the Xbox, give it up. That's one of the main reasons for doing it. The "rumor" that it is going there came originally from too credible a source (a European official Xbox magazine) to be considered anything other than extremely likely.
     
  20. J_Chuang

    J_Chuang Well-Known Member

    For one, a Chouwan miss-fire leads to the infamous accidential sleep stance; a SDE miss leads to what? DE? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    And, Chouwan takes longer to execute, prolly harder to do since you need to roll more precisely rather than repeatly scrubbing in forward motion.

    Finally, Akira is very powerful with a lot of good tools at his disposal. Shun's chouwan is his bread 'n butter move.
     

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