VF4 Team Battle changes?

> It's what gives Akira personality

and what personality is that? "unbalanced"? "overpowered"?

fuck personality. vf is not, and has never been about personality. get over it, the SDE is an abuse move. it should be changed. every character has their own lynchpin move, but akira's is better than any and all of them by a fair distance.

 

[Lau's ppp d+k]

Actually a lot of player i've seen on the video choose to do ppK instead for it has better recovery thus more valuable okizeme wise. I don't normally do ppp d+k unless it is for the kill.

[Lau's bounce combo]

Creed i think you got confused becuz after the Lau stumble throw he always is in close stance, which leads to open stance sgl palm combo.

[Lei's low Kick from IN stance]

I think Lei really needs that. Lei doesn't have any elbow/sidekick that staggers a crouching oppt. (except the slow f+P+K,P) Sure it is different from the others but it only comes out from the IN stance, it is linear, it is slower than other character's elbow, it has worse recovery than most character's elbow/sidekick, it is not that hard to struggle out once you get use to it, and a E-GTE will defeat most of Lei's follow up options.

 

[Aoi: She needs at least one combo that can be done from a long distance. Her bb P+K doesn't have enough reach. Otherwise, I think she's fine. ]

I think this contradicts with your "short limp Pai" argument... Her bb P+K isn't use to reach, it is use to evade and retaliate.

[Shun: Give him a sabaki. ]

he has a sabaki, just kinda useless ^^;

[Lei Fei: Another low attack. I like using him, but some of his combos do way too much damage.]

Which combos? the TR combos don't work on players and all other 1/2 life or near 1/2 life combos start with the infamous low kick. That kinda tells you how to guard when you play Lei. Take out those, what other hurting combos do Lei have? the d/f,d/f PP and the u/f+K+G both do just almost 1/4th, considering the risk of those move when they are blocked.

[Kage: Weaken his evasive attack (the punch one) (or make it high, not mid). Weaken his ability to ring out after tossing the opponent in the sky -- that's just fucking ridiculous. Make it impossible to throw over fences.]

Well i agree with the evade attack, it is one of the best/if not the best evade attack in the game.

[Pai: She has reversals, low throws, several staggers, a kaitenkei (swooping...not sure what you call it in English) build-up attack (not sure what you call those in English either) as well as a viciously long range despite her small limbs. Something must go... and fast. ]

I thought you are a texan? ^^; just curious. This kinda reminds me of those taiwanese teens with boundless love for anything japanese.

 

fuck personality. vf is not, and has never been about personality

Heh...the irony, the irony!!

 

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Kage: Weaken his evasive attack (the punch one)

Kage's whole character was built around this one trick, the TFT... ever since VF1. I think we should stick to suggestions and ideas that could concievably happen.

Are we talking about the same thing? From what I remember, nobody had evasive attacks in VF1. (down + PKG). Sorry, my American terminology is terrible, so you'll have to bear w/ me.


I always laff when people claim jacky's inashi reversal is cheap.
The guy has to do NOTHING AT ALL FOR IT TO WORK. Sure, the computer can psychically use it any time, but who gives a shit about what the computer can do with the movies? In real life a human who does it is leaving himself open to:

Yeah, true, but on a character that punches mainly, some guys go trigger happy w/ it. It seems that any joe blow can kick ass with Jacky as it is -- I find the inashi a bit overboard, that's all, and to be honest, I find him a bit boring more than anything, with AWFUL lines throughout the game.
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she can easily take off 50% of someone's damage after a floater... disgraceful.
You're nuts, tragic's whole combo video had one combo that did 100 pts of damage. She can't do it easily either, she needs a wall and a light enough character. She's lucky to do 40%.

When she counters, it gets ugly, and most of my characers are light (all of 'em actually except for Van). 50% happens... well, sometimes. I should've written she can EASILY take off 35-40%. Again, this is when you're playing good PEOPLE. It seems you can't get hit once w/o it turning
into a slaughter.


Eh? sucking them in? Like a vaccuum or something?
ehehe just screwing with you. Yes, he has a few decent ranged strikes, mostly just the d/f, d/f+P. I'll agree lau can put a hurt on you and without breaking out a thought.

Yes, like a hoover. He (and Jacky) seem too easy to play passively, and be rewarded for doing so...more than other characters. Kind of upsets the flow IMHO, if you know what I mean.

Jeff's low throws are identical to wolf's, within 5 points... should wolf get crappified ones as well? I dunno, low throws are fair because smart opponents can escape them, and even if they're not escaped, it takes some dexterity/reflexes to get a 'surprise' low throw (as opposed to low throwing a blocked PPPd+K).

Not enough people really use Jeffry for me to care too much. It was just something that came to mind. I think only one of Wolf's does noticeably more damage than the other 2 (10 pts maybe?, but I'm remembering from playing - not a chart.) which is the first I put in the buffer. But doing three gets a bit tricky.

Lol, which one of those cool attacks she has does 30-40% damage? I couldn't find it. She's the worst in the game, let her keep her moves.

Come to Tokyo -- you'll eat your words. There was a 7-dan Kage (High School student at that) punishing me and another friend. Again, this is 7-dan in the arcade -- that's impressive. He had like 10 straight wins, against other formidable people (me included). A friend played his 3-dan Pai and ABUSED him. Shamefully. I think he even got an excellent. Maybe if they made the range of that quick float-on-counter punch (not sure of the command) she has I'd be happy. That kills me.

 

she can easily take off 50% of someone's damage after a floater... disgraceful.
You're nuts, tragic's whole combo video had one combo that did 100 pts of damage. She can't do it easily either, she needs a wall and a light enough character. She's lucky to do 40%.

DC > b,b+P,K > DC takes nearly 50% and over 50% against Jacky.

 

[Aoi:]
[I think this contradicts with your "short limp Pai" argument... Her bb P+K isn't use to reach, it is use to evade and retaliate.]

Possibly, but I think Pai has too much stuff, and Aoi needs something else. I find myself doing almost the same thing all the time w/ Aoi.

[Shun: Give him a sabaki. ]
he has a sabaki, just kinda useless ^^;

Which one is that? I've used him since the beginning, and I don't know what it is. I looked at the movelist on the VF4 official site at sega-am2.co.jp & there's not one listed there, nor at the list on this site.

[Lei Fei: Another low attack. I like using him, but some of his combos do way too much damage.]
[Which combos? the TR combos don't work on players and all other 1/2 life or near 1/2 life combos start with the infamous low kick. That kinda tells you how to guard when you play Lei.]

Pretty much all of them. If they do nothing w/ the damage, then maybe lessen the number of hits he gets on a few of the combos. Again, I love using Lei Fei, but he does seem a bit strong for a monk.

[ Take out those, what other hurting combos do Lei have? the d/f,d/f PP and the u/f+K+G both do just almost 1/4th, considering the risk of those move when they are blocked.]

Try d/f,d/f P, d/f P+G, f,f K --- add that up. The opponent is often waiting for the 2nd P at the first of that combo.

[I thought you are a texan? ^^; just curious. This kinda reminds me of those taiwanese teens with boundless love for anything japanese.]

Hehe -- I'm Texan, but I live here. Any accent I had, and that wasn't much, is now gone. I dig living in japan, but it's definitely got it's downsides. 8 places to play VF4 in one part of town ISN'T one of them.

 

[Try d/f,d/f P, d/f P+G, f,f K --- add that up. The opponent is often waiting for the 2nd P at the first of that combo.]

Well, that isn't a combo though, more like a string. Sure Lei is easier in some aspects to set up his throw, but those are not guaranteed.

As for Shun, if i remember correctly, d/b P+K, P has sabaki property against high punch (or other punches i don't know...). I don't play Shun so I am not sure.

 

Well, it's not on the list. Not a great move to use that often either, as you go down, and lose a drink, and can get whacked.

 

Are we talking about the same thing? From what I remember, nobody had evasive attacks in VF1. (down + PKG). Sorry, my American terminology is terrible, so you'll have to bear w/ me.

I must have pasted in the wrong place, I was referring to your comments on what I assume is his b+P+G throw and his ability to ring out over low walls with it.

Yeah, true, but on a character that punches mainly, some guys go trigger happy w/ it. It seems that any joe blow can kick ass with Jacky as it is -- I find the inashi a bit overboard, that's all, and to be honest, I find him a bit boring more than anything, with AWFUL lines throughout the game.

It's true that say, a lau might be punching more than most, but if you keep getting reverse, it boils down to being predictable. Eating a few K,K combos or d/f, d/f+P+G would discourage the jacky from using it, but if the Lau keeps stubbornly using PPP or d/f+PPP or upknife, etc, then the jacky has no reason to stop...

A friend played his 3-dan Pai and ABUSED him. Shamefully. I think he even got an excellent. Maybe if they made the range of that quick float-on-counter punch (not sure of the command) she has I'd be happy. That kills me.

That's one battle. Ask Mukky if he gives a shit about the one time a 6th dan akira with 1800 games beat him in three straight rounds /versus/images/icons/smile.gif ...Pai's float-on-counter punch was probably either D,f+P or f,f+P. The FC one is decent, but requires a counter and being crouched. f,f+P also requires a counter, is baaaarely throw counterable, and comes out a bit slow. But it has longer range. Neither of them compares to, let's say... akira Shrm or even Kage's d/f+P. Not needing a counter is very handy, as often pai's attack will just barely nick someone after an attack (or after they release guard but before they strike).
If you sit and think hard for a bit, which characters would you really put pai over, third-dan-east-coast-killaz notwithstanding?

 

interesting. What's the difference in damage from?
Conditions?

I'm taking your word for it, but it seems odd - sarah's found the ability to do in one knee combo (without a pounce) what most of the knee-capable characters can't.

PS: was it you that was asking about SDE --> stagger --> m-dbpm being a combo? By a happy coincidence the second-to-most-recent daioh has a strong akira trying that, but the dbpm was blocked.

 

Creed i think you got confused becuz after the Lau stumble throw he always is in close stance, which leads to open stance sgl palm combo.

You're probably right. So d/f+PPPd+K fails in closed stance? And P,b+P,P?

I think Lei really needs that. Lei doesn't have any elbow/sidekick that staggers a crouching oppt. (except the slow f+P+K,P)

What is the high puntkick he does that seems to cause a stumble all the time, just MC-only stumble? Anyway, if he lacks a basic sidekick/elbow equivalent, I can agree with you on this.

 

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For one, a Chouwan miss-fire leads to the infamous accidential sleep stance; a SDE miss leads to what? DE?

And, Chouwan takes longer to execute, prolly harder to do since you need to roll more precisely rather than repeatly scrubbing in forward motion.

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How hard is it to do QCF+P. I don't think alot of people have that problem. Sometimes I prefer doing Chouwan cos you don't have to keep Tapping f while holding g for akira.

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Finally, Akira is very powerful with a lot of good tools at his disposal. Shun's chouwan is his bread 'n butter move.

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Yes he has alot of good moves. But only SDE can float/crumble, cannot be throw countered and hits mid for all his moves. Actually, all his other float starter that hit mid can be punch countered... That actually makes SDE akira's bread 'n butter move like shun's chouwan.

SDE(stagger) -> double palm not confirmed.

Creed..... you said lei fei's low kick stagger break the rules eh? How abt in VF2 when shun and lion break the rules with dodge? How abt VF3 when Taka is super duper heavy and knee doesn't knock him down? They added it and will never removed it cos they wanted to break the rules like always. It's always cool to have something new......

 

i think jacky's auto reversal also isn't the most skill-less thing either for this particular reason; you can't do RTE option select with it; what, are you going to sit still and try to do throw escapes when you get grabbed or what?

the bright side of the auto reversal IMO is that it can reverse 2 different level punches at one time. other than that, i'd really choose a regular reversal over it; being able to do RTE and all(course i don't know everything, so if you have a different opinion on this, lemme know)

i kinda like ice-9's take on toning down the SDE-->DJK combo; making the 2nd kick need certain delay. that would be interesting; making the hit detection of the 2nd kick as well as the weight and size of the opponent be taken into account when you do the combo. and it wouldn't tone down the power, but it would certainly make a bit more skill be involved.

Amer Pai, i don't think the throw system of VF4 should be changed; i love the way the counterability system of VF4 works; counterable things are throwable(due to the increased range), but throws can be escaped, hence, there isn't that free damage like in the past games as much, and leads to more guessing games.

ice-9, can you elaborate on that sarah combo? i never heard of it; does it require an MC, and what is the character range of that combo?

 

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i kinda like ice-9's take on toning down the SDE-->DJK combo; making the 2nd kick need certain delay. that would be interesting; making the hit detection of the 2nd kick as well as the weight and size of the opponent be taken into account when you do the combo. and it wouldn't tone down the power, but it would certainly make a bit more skill be involved.

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You might as well disable DJK for SDE crumble combo. Becos if you delay a bodycheck you get 75 total damage. If you do a DJK, you get 74 damage.

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ice-9, can you elaborate on that sarah combo? i never heard of it; does it require an MC, and what is the character range of that combo?

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I will elaborate on this since i am so free hehe. It requires MC on some mid weight characters. And stance dependant on all characters. Can only do up to jacky. And why it does more damage to jacky than light weight is because d/b+k at ending combo hits jacky on the ground. But you can tech roll out of it. That's why it does 100+ damage on jacky(not sure abt other mid weights never tried). The combo does 99 damage on MC against light weights. Does like 86 or something if it doesn't MC.

 

thanks for the take on the DC combo.

and oh yeah; forgot about the DBC as a followup /versus/images/icons/wink.gif btw, i thought DJK in revision C was the most damaging followup to the MC SDE, not the DBC. or was i wrong?

 

[Lau: So d/f+PPPd+K fails in closed stance? And P,b+P,P?]
I am not sure actually ^^; Again, i don't use the sweep combo as often. Plus, in this situation the sweep combo actually does less damage. So far, all I know is P, b+P, P works the best on open, and d+p, upknife/superknife works on close stance.

[Lei: What is the high puntkick he does that seems to cause a stumble all the time, just MC-only stumble?]

Hmm, i guess you are talking about the K+G, it hits high, throwable when blocked, but gives tiny bit of adv. when hit, not sure if it causes stumble on MC... It goes into IN stance automatically, whose fastest move is K+G(IN) 15 fr. Therefore even if it hits you can interrupt Lei with a 14 fr or less move, provided Lei doesn't use his 30 dmg auto reversal.

Or maybe you are talking about the "van halen" kick, u/f+K , it produces bounce combo when hit but not much dmg can be done from it. It is 16 fr and elbow counterable.

Perhaps you are talking about the f,f+K. It takes 20 fr to come out. Throw counterable. The situation after it hits is not particularly "comfortable" for Lei as well, since his options depend on if he hold the K button when executing the move.

Another Possible punt kick (heheh) is the IN stance K+G, decent 15 fr and hits mid, but is throw-counterable and the crumble it produce is minimal (like an elbow stagger i think)

 

Creed..... you said lei fei's low kick stagger break the rules eh? How abt in VF2 when shun and lion break the rules with dodge?

Sure, there are other rules that have been broken, but in the examples you give, it's almost like Sega decided "it's not right". In the next game, everyone can dodge (and in VF2 the dodges weren't that useful since attacks tracked them very well). In Taka's case, in the change from OB to TB more moves knocked him down, since the ability to take the hit and keep standing made taka's game 'un-VF-like' to some extent.

Low attacks stagger feel the same way to me, un-VF-like. I don't know what it does feel like (Tekken?!) but I don't like the direction it's going. VF has always favored balance guessing games, where if you're forced to guess between blocking high or low, high will always hurt less for guessing wrong. You know what I mean... like after jacky's PP there's only one attack that must be blocked low, and that attack sucks.

 

[How hard is it to do QCF+P. I don't think alot of people have that problem. Sometimes I prefer doing Chouwan cos you don't have to keep Tapping f while holding g for akira.]

Well, i guess it is just me, but com'on i am sure i am not the only one who have fell down sleeping after d/f+P+G /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

And, Chouwan is 1 fr slower at 15, it actually makes a difference, for example when akira's DE hits (+2), scrubbing out a buffered SDE will MC his oppt if they try to even low punch, but under the same situation (+2) Shun's chouwan will lose. As a result you can see lot of akira doing elbow rush but you don't see as many Shun doing chouwan rush /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

oh, and Chouwan is special mid, it won't float crouching oppt or stagger them.

[But only SDE can float/crumble, cannot be throw countered and hits mid for all his moves. ]
DE float on MC hits mid and not counterable (-3?), low sliding fist hits low but crumble on MC, if blocked it has the same disadvantage as a blocked low punch.

[all his other float starter that hit mid can be punch countered]
Just to neat pick, knee is not punch counterable. You don't see many akira use Yoho except after the match ended /versus/images/icons/smile.gif When i watched Mukky vs Ohsu recently, all they do are elbows and 0 shoulder ram.

[That actually makes SDE akira's bread 'n butter move like shun's chouwan.]

Yes, but i would say DE is akira's best move for it has 1st rate elbow speed, give the best adv among the elbows after it hits (for reference: Lau is even after elbow hit, Kage is even after elbow hit, Jacky is -4, Jeffrey -3. Akira is +2), has least trouble after it is blocked (-3). And comboable after MC hit.

That makes 2 "best" move for one character...

I like it better in TB when Akira has to think harder to even DE, and only does SDE when he feels like gambling for big return.

 

Neither of them compares to, let's say... akira Shrm or even Kage's d/f+P. Not needing a counter is very handy, as often pai's attack will just barely nick someone after an attack (or after they release guard but before they strike).
If you sit and think hard for a bit, which characters would you really put pai over, third-dan-east-coast-killaz notwithstanding?

Heh... I can understand complaints about Pai in Version B, but Version C?? Come on, now you are just whining.

Also, you shouldn't compare Pai's D,f+P with Kage's d/f+P, since they are used differently.