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VF5 AI (detailed breakdown)

Discussion in 'Console' started by LemmyIsTheGame, Jan 20, 2008.

  1. LemmyIsTheGame

    LemmyIsTheGame Well-Known Member

    I've been playing fighting games in single-player virtually all my life (always on the maximum difficulty setting) and nothing has changed. AIs have always cheated to try and win. SFII was the first real fighting game and is still one of the most fun single player games around - yet it cheats more than almost any other fighting game (outside of western shambles like Mortal Kombat and Eternal Skank-pions). On SFII the AI inflicted close to double damage, took twice as much to KO, Read your controller (so much so that it used to jab Blanka's roll and counter it every time), use auto-fire quick jabs, Make dizzies virtually irrelevant by auto-fire waggling out of them, tech-hitting throws around 95% of the time (SSFII Turbo/Alpha), survives moves that should KO it (changes damage levels to keep it in the fight - I've even seen guard damage not win when it had zero vital) etc etc. All Capcom games after still used the same 'advantages' - DarkStalkers is almost impossible on difficulty 8 for example. If you want to have a heart attack with frustration, try beating Zangief on Super SFII Turbo consistently with any of the characters. Although I realise they are cheating and are some of the most frustrating things around, they are insanely addictive and incredibly satisfying to beat the damn CPU. I have played any decent Japanese fighting game you can name LOADS in single player and know tons about the AI patterns found in them. If you want huge satisfaction - try completing Street Fighter EX on level 8 difficulty with Garuda without continuing - the feeling you get from going all the way through the game and then kicking in the rock hard last boss (Vega) without continuing is awesome and every great fighting game is the same.

    The Virtua Fighter 5 AI (expert setting on Xbox 360 version):

    After playing against the AI for hours on both PS3 and 360 versions I have learned loads about it so I thought I should contribute some of this knowledge. I just want to say that I played the PS3 version on 'Hard' and the 360 version on 'Expert' and have never changed these settings since my first match (despite the game being a bloody difficult swine and costing me items and gold on numerous occasions).

    It doesn't really matter that the AI can win, which it certainly can. It's just that overall, it's pretty abysmal at playing the game. Just watching how it gets its wins reveals it to blatantly use cheats in order to drain a better player's life bar. Auto guarding whenever it wants to and using that to throw almost all guaranteed moves just because its fully aware of the -frames. Combine this with side-stepping moves whenever they feel like it and automatically crouching under anything high (including throws) even if it's only for a split-second after they've missed one of their own moves and you've got a damn, frustrating opponent.

    Every A.I. in the game uses the same base tactics (differing between characters obviously) - each character can only access a relatively small number of its moves-list and all AIs keep doing similar stuff - all Jeffrys love /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, all Pais love /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, all Jackys abuse side-sway repeatedly etc.

    As is to be expected due to the complexities, it doesn't really know how to play as any of the characters - just sticking to what may fool players and pick up cheap wins. As an example - it is an embarrassing Aoi player you've ever witnessed - basically all it does is repeat PPP variation strings and does throws (still wins though...). And, as El Blaze is new to the game, the programmers didn't know what would be good for him to do, so it just does safe /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif a lot and performs more throws than even any of the other throw obsessed character AIs...Pretty useless. The fact that it reads your inputs helps a lot...

    17 points worth mentioning about the VF5 AI:

    1. The AI renders throws a primary way of draining energy - this goes for either you or the CPU. The CPU relies heavily on utilising throws - mainly after a quick move (either guarded or hit by) such as a quick standing jab or duck punch and then goes immediately into a throw. It will also quickly initiate a throw if it senses you are defending for a reasonable amount of time and uses throws after your guaranteed moves almost exclusively. Throws are also overly powerful to use against the AI. The opponents will of course perform moves that leave them in guaranteed throw situations but they also, foolishly await wake up rise kicks by guarding over your fallen body allowing for easy throws after standing. The reason for this is that it is far easier to program. An AI that uses throws in all the right places will do as a base for all characters, ensuring that Akira can be a threat and win matches without having to create an AI that fully understands Akira. Of course this is lazy and spoils the single-player game somewhat by putting too much emphasis on throws.

    2. The CPU is obsessed with get-up kicks. It nearly always tries one whenever it is knocked down, regardless of where you are standing, allowing for free damage. An easy way to deal some cheap damage is to knock it down then use a move that rise kicks are super-susceptible to - such as Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or Lei-Fei's HS charge /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. With better timing, any move such as Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, Akira's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or even a quick dash in throw/low throw whenever they rise works every time. The CPUs faith in get-up kicks at least explains why it is so scared of receiving one that the aforementioned wake up into throw tactic works almost without fail.

    3. The AI does "read your controller" (which is the only reason the CPU can beat human players). The easiest way to prove this is by using a charge move such as Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. The AI will sidestep it every single time unless it is the middle of something. I have joked to my brother that one of the 360 achievements should be to hit an AI opponent with every charge move in the game.

    4. The 360 version has multiple AIs for each character. The PS3 version was laughably bad as every single opponent played the same with just a varying degree of how well it employed the same strategy. AIs can be quite different and they have added a lot to Quest mode since the rubbish VF4Evo/VF5 PS3 AIs, although it is arguable how realistic they are. I don't know who in their right mind would repeat such predictable, punishable tactics ad-infinitum...

    Some examples:
    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gifChief Gutti (Wolf) uses the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif charge over and over, while Auron can basically only attempt the hit throws (stunner, burning hammer etc).
    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gifPaul (Akira) uses the charge /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif over and over to guard-stun you into a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into the 3 step combo, while the Tetramm Akira uses only the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into the 3 step combo and the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif throw (he cannot beat a ducking opponent).
    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gifAndi-Gotard (Shun) continually goes for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif juggle and ChrmnMa0 is concerned only with landing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.
    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gifMugi (Vanessa) continually repeats /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

    The repetitive AIs can sometimes be harder to beat than the regular ones as you are just waiting for that one tactic and anything different can completely throw you off.

    I thought about writing a guide that listed what each A.I does so strategies could be put into practice, but the normal difficulty setting nullifies the point - on normal the CPU will fall for almost anything.

    5. In the PS3 version the CPU wasn't capable of using the Offensive Move, to 'make up' for this, it is now probably the main move used by all characters... The AI never does OM/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (as it is a guaranteed throw) but uses the OM/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to no end. The CPUs Offensive Move is also sometimes followed by the throw as mentioned in the 1st point. At times it can sound as if a train is chugging along in the background, it abuses it that frequently.

    6. The AI relies heavily on sidestepping. For the same reason as why it uses throws to such a large degree - it can be applied to all characters to make effective, hard-to-beat AIs. Because the CPU can read controller inputs, theoretically it could escape every non-circular move 100% of the time, and quite often it will just 'pretend' that it guessed a sidestep and use it to get some free damage.

    7. As mentioned before, the CPU frequently 'cheats'. Blatantly by using Shun's moves which require drinks when it quite clearly hasn't got enough to do so, but this is mostly input reading stuff such as when the CPU performs a charge move - The 'Paul' Akira who always charges the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will not charge the move up if you already started a move, but instead unleash it into the face of your move. Of course, that's doable by a real player but the CPU only usually goes for this move for the guard stagger or fully charged hit.

    8. The AI seems to crank up the difficulty when its energy is running low. If you only need a low kick to win the round, the chance of the CPU guarding it is much more likely. A high -low string (such as Pai's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) which the AI will fall for frequently will be harder to land if the CPU senses that just one of the hits will K.O. it.

    9. Moves like Akira's Hachimon Kaida (Akira: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif / El Blaze: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif / Vanessa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif etc) can be done repeatedly across the screen and the AI can do almost nothing to stop them.

    10. Ever since VF4 (and now even on the expert setting of VF5) the AI still can hardly ever get away from flying/dashing moves such as Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, Lei-Fei's HAISHIKI/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, Shun's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, or Wolf's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

    11. The AI is too dumb to know where it is - ring outs work far too easily and it will even do moves that send itself out of the ring because come hell or high water that was going to be its next move anyway.

    12. In one player modes staggers are not on the game (for you that is). The CPU waggles like a ridiculous madman instantly against all staggers no matter what rank the CPU player is - the only ones that work are wall staggers and even then the window is tight. The AI loves to use them against you though.

    13. some AIs are much harder than you'd expect them to be. 2nd dan 'Guardian K' (Eileen), 1st dan 'Liam' (Akira) and 3rd dan 'Di' (Pai) can be some of the toughest opponents even though having a low rank.

    14. An extra note about how dumb and unaware the CPU is - if you hit Shun on a time over win he carries on fighting until the replay comes on (because he's programmed to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif repeatedly when a fight ends - even though that has no use on a time up...)

    15. Some of the moves are virtually useless against the computer - the CPU will almost never let itself be hit by certain moves - The AI is shit-scared of Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif as it crumples so avoids it like the plague - despite not minding Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif crumple...

    16. Moves that switch to stances such as Shun's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and Vanessa's Offensive /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif get intercepted almost every time. This was even worse on PS3 (the CPU would also crouch jab every time you started any high string).

    17. Cancels such as Aoi's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif are mostly useless as the CPU will just read the inputs and attack or throw you instead of actually waiting for the sweep. There is no way that a human player would even think to attack in the middle of one of your strings as there the chance of recieving the sweep would be to high but the CPU does it time after time.

    18. CPU is overly obsessed with hitting you with attacks that guarantee further moves. Even when any move would KO you, the CPU still commits to launchers, crumples and staggers.

    In summary, the AI basically wins only by cheating. Well, you try and code something that's clever enough to beat someone as good at the game as we are, and fairly...If you took throws and side-steps (any moves that it can read your controller to make sure they work) away from it, it would not be able to win. You can't outsmart something that's not human, and you'd have to be pretty daft to assume you could have a fair fight against a digital opponent - one that can just correct any of its mistakes whenever the hell it feels like it. When playing against certain 10th dan and above AIs on expert difficulty, it sometimes reminds you of Mortal Kombat II - the cheapest, crappest AI of all time. In MKII, if you do d, f for Sub-Zero's ice, the second you press LP the computer ducks. It's impossible to succeed with the ice and see the freeze animation unless the computer is punching or kicking. You can only hit it if it was already doing something at that moment. Unfortunately, all fighting games employ versions of this as their base, otherwise they would never be able to beat good players. On expert setting some AIs are almost impossible to acquire a yellow star on. Only luck will help you do this. Juka (SPA) KAGE is a good example - it escapes any and all throws and reads your inputs to land all of its own moves, or guard yours. It isn't your skill or move choices that will affect the fight in any way, it's just whether the CPU will let you win or not. As an experiment - I was winning a match against Juka (SPA) with full energy and the opponent had about 20 points of damage remaining and I tried to see if I could win by using a throw. The AI throw escaped 6 different throws at different times - some guaranteed situations, some out of the blue. It managed to get away from throws ending in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif again, low throw, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif,and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif (in that order) and then came back and won the match. Proof that a), the Ai can be perfect when it wants to be, and b), that the AI cheats more blatantly when it feels at a disadvantage. I managed to beat Juka with Goh on the 8th attempt and was certain that whenever I had 2 wins the 3rd was almost twice as hard to get. It could quite obviously play a perfect game (which it sometimes does), so it can sometimes feel like there's no point attempting to play it at all... I've played it tons and I still continue to do so; it also helps me practice my moves (I use it like a glorified Dojo mode) and I gain items at the same time. As I said earlier though, I LOVE playing A.I.s in fighting games and always have done. I understand that not many other players would play it just for the fun of fighting such a frustrating and unrealistic series of opponents - they'd be too eager to find and abuse a quick-fix way of beating them (such as throwing them out of the ring with a Giant Swing) for as start, and playing it without such cheats, as I do, highlights what a cheating bastard the CPU is. As matches matter (item battles and tournaments), it remains great fun, in-spite of how riled up it frequently gets you.

    As much as I hate this mother fucker, love this mother fucker. The frustration is what makes it so addictive, combine this with the RPG item collecting and you get a game that is impossible to stop playing.

    Phew! 2500 words...! I had more to say, but I got tired - it could go on forever.
     
  2. KtotheG

    KtotheG Well-Known Member

    So.. i take it that you dont have a problem with the balloon trick now? I mean, since you have realised that the AI is utter tedium, the use of tricks and whatnot to get items quicker is not a big deal right?
     
  3. LemmyIsTheGame

    LemmyIsTheGame Well-Known Member

    How in the heck do you fathom that? Ridiculous. You would have no cause to play the one-player mode or learn the patterns if you cheat. That's the whole point. This post ENFORCES how strongly I feel about cheating.

    If you cheat you couldn't possibly enjoy playing it - I love playing it, work it out.
     
  4. ViperExcess

    ViperExcess Well-Known Member

    Um, play Quest Mode after you get all the items if you can't play online?

    Getting items and playing Quest Mode are two completely different things to me. No need to force yourself to see both tasks as one.

    And unless you just don't care about items, then you might as well get Quest Trifecta before using other characters. I'ma take a wild guess that you don't care for items?

    I don't see how the balloon trick is cheating, either. There's no shortcut to getting Quest Trifecta, and again I'd say that fighting the CPU and getting items are two completely different things. Quest Mode is no longer the Quest mode of old; it's just there to give you varied and mass AI practice. Quest Mode is really just there for practice and for collectibles, and the game doesn't force you to play one specific way.
     
  5. LemmyIsTheGame

    LemmyIsTheGame Well-Known Member

    Sorry but I don't understand your point. Why is it you don't think I care about the items?
    I enjoy practicing the game and trying to beat the AI and I also like the fact that while doing so, you are earning more and more items as you play.
     
  6. Onslaught

    Onslaught Well-Known Member

    So basically you find cheating and frustration fun? Interesting.
     
  7. ViperExcess

    ViperExcess Well-Known Member

    Sounds like you're just trying to find a substitute for Vs mode, if you want to earn items as you play (the way the Japanese have to earn them in the arcades). But the AI cheats, you're not in favor of cheating, but you give the AI leeway to cheat and find it more than acceptable? You like it when the game actually cheats for artificial difficulty, but you don't like "cheating" in the form of making anything easier? Weird to me.

    The reason I don't think you care about the items is that you would have gotten/earned Trifecta first (everyone has to stick to one character to get this, not just you), and then be able to do what you want with other characters. Unless you think the LB trick is also cheating . . . which it wouldn't be, because that's the ultimate Quest Mode accomplishment.

    No access to Live or human players? Much more fun way of "earning" your things there.

    I mean, difficulty can be fun at times, and I know it. But when you know it's purely artificial on purpose and impossible for humans to imitate, then it's just not fun anymore because you're playing AI that doesn't fall for setups or conditioning. In that regard, Quest Mode is almost purely for combo practice.
     
  8. Sp00n

    Sp00n Well-Known Member

    Sounds to me you are about as autistic as they come.
     
  9. scytherage

    scytherage Well-Known Member

    LemmyIsTheGame, any tips on beating Dural (Xbox 360, Arcade Mode, Normal Difficulty)? I'm using Jacky.
     
  10. DubC

    DubC Well-Known Member

    What is funny to me is that a lot of what you described in the OP is high level stuff that top players in Japan do all the time. Fuzzy everything possible, utilize zero frame throw, keep abusing moves as they work (I see Jeffrey 2k+g and Jacky defensive move used all the time online), etc. Also, Evading IS predictable. You have to know the frame data yourself though to know when they will do it. Unlike other games, the CPU here, doesn't seem cheap at all. It just seems like a really good player that is seasoned, plays the game "right", and doesn't allow for much room for error on new players. What else should you expect from expert?
     
  11. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    Hitting her works pretty fine for me....
     
  12. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Break /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif. Know what is punishable (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, etc.). Throw and set up ring outs.

    I guess I can do a Dural guide because the player base coming in is really... eeehh.
     
  13. KtotheG

    KtotheG Well-Known Member

    lol, you love playing it. yet you create a thread for the sole purpose of complaining about how the cpu cheats and how frustrating it is.

    look, the tone i got from this thread was that you think the AI cheats, and that shit is frustrating. Now, just on that alone...is it not fair to say that most people CBF doing the whole quest mode "properly"? evidenced by the massive support for the balloon trick and whatnot

    and ill say this again, its really not your place to question people's morals for utilising available tools in the game to make the acquisition of items easier.
     
  14. scytherage

    scytherage Well-Known Member

    Ehh, nevermind.
     
  15. LemmyIsTheGame

    LemmyIsTheGame Well-Known Member

    I try to play as all characters evenly (something I have mentioned countless times on this forum), if I fully completed one character and then used the others, I would have completely sickened myself off with that character and would never want to go back to them. That's not how I play.
     
  16. LemmyIsTheGame

    LemmyIsTheGame Well-Known Member

    To be honest with you I haven't really fought her that much as I'm sticking to Quest mode mostly. But Dural just seems similar to every other character - but with far cheesier moves. Just play as you would against the others and try to learn when her strings are over as she does other character's moves but with extra hits on the end (Akira's elbow into his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).

    I've only played her twice on 360 and beat her twice in a close match.
     
  17. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Member

    Nice points. I also noticed the repetitive moves of the AI, mostly the throws. The throws of the AI often irritate me.
     
  18. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    Teaches you to enter your throw escapes after a vulnerable move though. The AI plays "right". It helps you see where you are in a disadvantaged situation and helps you play more morally.
     
  19. Slide

    Slide Well-Known Member

    riiiiiiiiiight

    wait, no.
     
  20. LemmyIsTheGame

    LemmyIsTheGame Well-Known Member

    I agree. The game can be infuriating but is fantastic at teaching you the game. And as I mentioned before, the more frustrating a game is, the more rewarding it is to win.
     

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