VF5:FS Offtopic - Sega, and Evo Tourney, etc.

If you saw everything, just take one match from Youtube and break that down for us... Take the grand finals and break that one down please, I gotta see what you saw...

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The way I see it, cats saying VF is p spam is the same as cats saying sf is hadoken spam... Nonsense...

 

Good post Tony.

Who has said that VF is p spam? He said there was a lot of being used in that match and I happen to agree. Don't you? Both players were basing their offense around it, why is it so wrong to say this to the point of him being called a n00b and worse pointing it out? Cause he might not understand why they did it? Ridiculous.

 

Did you not read???

There's a difference between spam and knowing when to use a move... And last I checked I didn't say 'n00b' or anything of the like. I did say "Boo this man!!!" though... And if it was a 'not-so-advanced' person simply not knowing, saying "Ryan Hart played like a prick in those matches" wouldn't have been said either... That doesn't sound like a new cat not knowing, that sounds like someone who's claiming they can do better... And if they can, mad props to them...

And if you think he didn't 'understand' why those moves were used, why don't you drop some knowledge and help a homeboy out... Clear the air up, eh???

 

I did read. Did you? He did not say that -VF- was a spam fest, he said that game was it and it was. I also said that he was called a n00b for that opinion, not that you said it. He was also called a scrub and shit at VF. Spamming is defined by the frequency a move is used, not the thought process behind it. Don't make up your own definitions so they fit into your scheme.

"And if you think he didn't 'understand' why those moves were used, why don't you drop some knowledge and help a homeboy out... Clear the air up, eh???"

So you can attack that opinion? This is the second time you have tried this bating. Grow up?

Here's the analysis then, feel free to smear it with shit when I'm done;


The fact of the matter is that most people had pretty poor defense in VF:Evo times and abare (attacking out of dissadvantage) was much stronger with no throwclash etc.

The correct response to a P MC hit would probably be to ETE but it just wasn't happening (in the West) and people were abare as shit in return or guarding. Shou used Sarah which not many people were used to and also as a playstyle revolved pretty much around her elbow and safe play. P (guarded) > P MC, P (guarded) > elbow and P > throw were very strong in Evo. Even with fuzzy you could delay the throwattempt which in turn then could be interrupted. P being used was the safest thing to do cause if you did for instance an elbow and the opponent evaded he had a free launcher on you as in the case of Kage 2_3p or Sarah KP on mC. For Sarah you had 6p, 6p delay K (gave a combo if I remember right on CH), 6pp (only -3 so since she had an 11f punch you would be hard pressed using a mid after) etc so she had one of the best elbows in the game to go with it. Even if the opponent tried ducking the second hit of 6pp or 6pk the mindgames didn't stop there cause you had backdash attack, another 6p hitscan K to worry about etc. Upon a blocked elbow (-5) yes could elbow back but then Sarah could evade KP you for a guaranteed launch. If you were to 2p a minor backdash into attack worked lovely. Imo Sarah and Pai were the most underrated characters in Evo, both very strong while everyone was looking at Akira/Jacky/Kage. Kage ofc has TFT which was arguably the games best throw (ring out even over short wall stages like this one, otherwise wallcombos etc).

So if you could hit scan well and had a good elbow tactics like Shou were using were very good. P was used to set up the elbow pressure. In the final you see Ryan trying to P throw over and over as an offense (probably correct as Shou doesn't throwescape TFT's here) and Shou basing his offence around p-elbow. Ryan also tries to P (hit) > P MC and build from there cause at the time many people were used to abare of maybe one move but if you did two P's in a row or got a second 2p in it would be MC and it was something very hard to deal with reflexwise the throw coming after. Shou doesn't really fear Kages elbow as it just sets up a new situation with stagger and 2p's etc a lot cause of it while Ryan has to respect Sarah's 6pk more. Also 3p raped highs and was semicircular so even though standing punch is faster etc he opts to 2p a lot. In hindsight both are probably playing correct as in Ryans case Sarah isn't escaping TFT's / throws and in Shou's case Ryan isn't using 336p much to stop him from being Abare. Both players still look and feel very nervous to me, Ryan doesn't always punish DC, Shou doesn't punish kage pp4pk and both players sometimes throw out a P upon a P MC (Shou backdashes in one case) cause of missing hitscanning imho that they probably wouldn't so much in casual play. There are some really great sequences though Ryan reading Shou upon elbowstagger > 3p (1.29) after doing a midkick earlier that Shou will try to KP. Shou hitting 6p CH (2.22) and Ryan trying to ETE but Shou doing delay 2p+k,k to launch the attempt etc.

What's your own analysis of the match? You can go through it from Kage's perspective since I've done Sarah (Shou's here).

P.S; Don't even try to say that I'm not as good as Shou or Ryan cause I know I'm not. I just thought it would be fun playing your little game and giving you cannon fodder. Have fun with it! But don't call people scrubs and so on cause they just give an honest opinion of what the perceive to happen on a screen. If VF is to grow and improve the honest opinion of new players is important. It's really funny that noboby attacked his opinion of Ryan looking like a prick in those games - just the opinion of 's being spammed

<3 VF, KiwE.

 

I guess I'm "nobody" then because that's why I called him a scrub in the first place. In my second post I questioned why he's allowed to insult other players and we are wrong for doing the same thing.

 

lol? What's your problem? Don't like backing up your arguements? If I disagreed (I don't) I'd sure like to know what you're on about. Thanks for elaborating though, that was very informative.

 

NOOOOOOB!!! Psyche, I'm kidding; don't write another tablet in response...

Anyway, you're saying that I'm gonna smear your analysis and to grow up... Look man, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong about something, no matter what it is. There have been plenty of times in which someone has corrected me about something and I'm like "my bad" or "good looking out", and I stand corrected in that scenario... You're coming at me like I'm the "prick" here, and I'm not trying to be at all... I simply suggested that if you felt he didn't know, clear the shit up for him... Simple... That wasn't even a 'game' as you call it... I don't have beef for cold hard facts... As it stands, dude isn't even saying whether or not he knew what was going on... Stop assuming what I'm gonna say. You won't know until I say it, right??? So stop trippin'...

Let's look at the statement again:

"The way I see it, cats saying VF is p spam is the same as cats saying sf is hadoken spam... Nonsense..."

Notice the first 5 words: The way I see it... Don't you think that would be applying to an opinion??? Lemme break it further to that magic acronym that saves people from getting bashed -"imo"... So you're basically playing paladin for someone who's opinion (which could be percieved as got smashed while bashing someone elses... Hmmm.... But I do feel that people say that VF is a spam fest just like people say that SF is a hadoken spam fest when they're both far from it... And there are people who look at one match and come up with those analyses as if they know all about it... And that's what happened when I was living in Hawaii. I'd talk to someone about VF and get the p and 2p spam fest schpiel, and I'd had to let em know what was up... Hell I don't know all the ins and outs of VF, and I try to come humble about it and ensure that I don't get Hazzerone'd and considered a noob, whether I do or don't know what I'm talking about... And I didn't say noob, but yet you're saying I did and you're also saying you didn't call me noob...

"I also said that he was called a n00b for that opinion, not that you said it."

"But don't call people scrubs and so on cause they just give an honest opinion of what the perceive to happen on a screen."

I mean what does that sound like??? Make up your mind... And if you're not refering to me, then fix your posts so that it doesn't read as such... Or just make a disclaimer or something, 'cause it sounds like you're jumping from one group to singling out people... And that shit ain't safe on block...

Spamming is determined by the frequent use, yes, but that doesn't mean that everything done in high quantity is spamming... If that's the case, I could call playing the drums a hi-hat spam... But its not... If it was, Buddy Rich and my 1-yr-old son would have the dopest drum solos because they would have the same result... I personally don't believe in layered spamming... There has to be some thought to it, some sort of strategy involved (spacing, timing, footsies, tick throw, whatever)... You're not just gonna keep throwing random shit out knowing its gonna cost me... You play it safe, and if he/she gets caught with it all the time, thats cool... If not, I have other options...

Playing like a prick??? Man that match didn't even look like that... Playing like a prick would be taunting after I dizzied you and then combo for the win...

I'll go over the match again and do Kage's perspective to the best of my ability... Kage masters, bash away!!! I'll take those shots, and learn... I don't even play with Kage, but it's cool... I'm a Jeffry scrub!!! Did that put some shine in your life??? I wanna help, but I'm not gonna go Saul of Tarsus on a forum... And I'm not gonna just openly say things without knowing or having something to back it up. And if that info is wrong, sobeit!!! I'll take an L... I mean what are you really mad about??? What grinds your gears??? I state my thoughts and feelings, but my debates are all in fun, and I learn and grow... I do try to grow in the VF community and learn, but sometimes you gotta learn the hardway; whether its taking a L at a tourney, or getting called scrub by truly skilled players...

 

There really is no argument to be had. What fucking argument do I need to back up? That I agree with the fact that was being used a lot in the video? Anyone with two eyes can see that, it's not even subjective so people need to stop treating it like it is. There was, what, 20 's used in the first round alone. How good the players in the video are, the level difference between an outside observer and the players in the video, the thought process behind why they were used, doesn't matter.

 

I always thought the "correct" response, was the choice you read, that works.

It's like you tried to take an unnecessary dig(on the West), when you didn't have to, whether it is/was true or not.

It's funny you say that, cause your posts coming off as if you just think you're better than everyone in general.

 

Kage player decided using P to make Sara player confused. Apparently he earned credit during the second match, however, he couldn't rely on that strategy until the end.

I don't see any point to argue actually

 

Okay guys. I admit it, I am a noob.

I shall return to this thread when I too have no defence aside from P abare. I am sorry.

 

Go to Dojo and Stay there.

 

You should have seen the way Ryan Hart played when he won the big VF4Evo tournament we had here at Trocadero. He used Akira and was playing him in Minami style with great stepping. The spectators were impressed and I know it got people interested in learning VF. But speaking of Minami look at the way he plays Kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2PyZ4FzhjA
compared to Akira
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmqm07z-WA8&feature=related

Not that Kage couldn't be flashy and entertaining to watch in VF4Evo mind. Sometime nerves and pressure really impact on the way someone decides to play or that's how they're effective with a specific character vs another. I quite enjoyed the Ryan vs Shou matches anyway.

Look at the Evo T6 final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eifzWcLpEWc&playnext_from=TL&videos=ZTs1cvJnyT4
Even the Tekken players were critical of that.

 

Now that Akira vs Lei Fei match is what I see in my mind when I think top-level VF play.

Thanks for the analysis Kiwe.

@ Shoju:

I've been away from Tekken for a loooooooooooong time, and was always just a novice at it anyways. Please explain what you meant; what's bad about it? Or link me to where "even Tekken players were critical."

AFAIK, Tekken is a very offensively oriented game with little possibility at true defense. Or at least all the finalists at EVO2010 played that way. And it seems you can just spam strings without worrying about getting punished much. But I thought that's just because I know nothing about Tekken so that's what I see.

 

I'm pretty sure that's a different "Minami" playing Kage.

 

It could be, not sure but I remember Minami Akira being infamous for his low punch when he used Kage in VF4.

Mlai: I only play T6 casually I'm not the most knowledgeable on it. The match just didn't look entertaining. Looking at Rip during Evo he seemed extremely nervous and that maybe why he wasn't his usual self and some have have said Nin didn't play as good as usual. It did seem like Rip had opportunities to low parry/crush Steve's high, low, mid string and sometimes his hit checking was off on Law's WS 1, 2 (tournament pressure?). Dunno for sure but T6 is not a game I particularly like watching anyway. There was plenty of dry Bob, Lars and Law at Evo and it wasn't nice to watch.

I'll have to find those links of the proper Tekken players view of that final.

 

Looks to me like what Shou should have been doing. I wasn't the one getting fucked up by TFT on the regular in an apparently "high level" match.

 

I've never played VF pre-VF5 but watching VF4/evo matches looks like utter shit when Kage is playing.

I've saw so much 3k stagger into TFT in these videos I cannot even believe it.

Seriously, where are all the throw escapes at? People big up the VF4 evo training mode so much but then I don't even see any ETE used.

 

That's not Minami Akira. The Kage player was known here as Minami "low-punch" Kage, or something that effect.

You can see Minami Akira's face in the fight versus Heruru. Minami is on the left of that video. Minami "low-punch" wears glasses.