VF5 Location Test: Hands On Impressions

Alex GREAT post, a few quick questions about evading:

- Is there still a successful/failed evade depending on whether you're at advantage/disadvantage respectively?

- Given the above, is successful evade -> OM the same as failed evade -> OM? Same as in animation, degree of evade, recovery, properties, etc.?

- When you've ended up at the side/behind opponents with OM, was it from a successful evade -> OM or a failed evade -> OM?

- Can you delay doing the OM from evade? I.e. evade, see whether successful/failed, and then OM? Or do you have to input the two commands right away or as if they were canned?

 

Well like i said before, i was concentrating so much on getting offensive evade mechanics down, i forgot most of the time to do the OM afterwards. I only got used to offensive evade in the last 2 games i played, with the earlier teaching me not to use it so much in a disadvantaged situation, so sorry I cant really answer your OM questions. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Given that - Failed offensive evade is a really bad thing. Like I said about doing OE on a minor move still leaves you pretty much in front of the opponent, so doing OE vs no attack is the same deal.

heres the best way to explain what a failed OE looks like. A slightly slowed down shun's /++ with worse recovery of course and less horizontal range. You're slightly moving slanted, but still in front, plus it makes this really loud shuffling sound. If opponents can react to that sound, start limiting your use of offensive evade.

 

adding to what alex wrote:

about the OM (offensive move): I still feel pretty unsure what the rules are w/ this move. I will say though that in situations similar to the one Alex mentioned (medium-large disadvantage) against another Akira player, Jack, I was able to use the OM to get completely behind him when he attacked me, such as after he guarded my middle kick.

Basically, I just don't think we're supposed to use it defensively, but in some situations, it CAN work that way, MAYBE. I actually disagree w/ one point Alex made, which is about Akira's ++,: I think the 2nd hit was tracking Alex, since he was dodging the first hit, VF4 style. I don't think Akira was hitting with his back hand, but I'm not sure who's right. That move became a cheese move basically, with Akira not needing to connect/guard OR use special timing anymore, it's just a regular string now, which seems to track HEAVILY on the 2nd hit if 1st hit is Evaded. What I saw happening to Alex is exactly what we used to see in VF4 if you do a loaded Evade against Sarah's +,, getting hit by the Knee when you're behind her. Just what I think I saw, Alex could be right. Either way, they should change that move back to FT style.

Akira:

In general, Akira seems to have the same basic fighting style he had in FT, but now going even further into the emphasis on strings. I'm sad to say that aside from and , Akira now has another variable string. Although the last hit seems like a High in either case, I still feel this moves Akira away from the essence of a "Power" type, and makes him more "poke" oriented, especially given the nature of the new string. I wish AM2 would focus more on the flavor of each individual character's style, and quit trying to "super balance" the game by making all the characters have the same tools. I long for the days when Akira was about removing huge chunks of damage w/ single hits ala VF2/3, I don't want to chip away at the oppt all day with 1,2 strings, I can play Lion for that.

Anyway, the new string is +, or +. The first hit Akira ducks kind of low, I'm guessing this will avoid Highs, and is a Mid chop to the mid section, which causes a small stun where their head pops back. This hit can be chained on Normal Hit (I think) into the canned , which I think is High (but MIGHT be a mid, it's hard to tell), where Akira strikes up towards the face with his other hand. You can see this move used repeatedly in DunzAkira vs NoNameKage clip (city stage). Basically, Akira now has Jeffry's +, , and it causes nearly the same effect/spacing on hit. Like the FT addition of ++, it's a rare thing for Akira: a string/blow which doesn't knock down, and makes him more of a poker.

The 2nd can also be delayed a good bit, which brings us to the + followup. I don't think +, + will ever chain, Maybe on Red Counter or a Side Stun? But I doubt it, it'd be too strong, because unlike the canned followup, the + is a High Double Palm to the face, which is a little slower, and causes a flop ala +. This move is actually pretty cool, even though I don't like the string aspect, I wish they'd just dump the followup and have this one. I'm pretty sure the same combos that follow + can be used here, I got a after it, but fluffed my Byakko into a Single Palm, so just missed it, but they flop right in front of you just like Standing Palm. Basically, you have to either delay the 2nd hit or bait someone into eating it by delaying +... /Throw a lot, then changing to the +. It looks really cool, I just don't like Akira having this kind of heavy guessing game coming from the command list itself, w/out much thought needed by the player. There are plenty of other characters who function that way, and it's so easy to use. they should have made it a Just Frame or something. One balancing effect is that the + flopping 2nd hit can't be delayed as long as the stunning hit it seems. I also got Yoho -> +, , DblPm to work.

+++ this move can also be seen in the above clip. Akira strikes forward standing vertically with both hands above his head, then closes his broad stance as he smashes down and forward with both hands. This attack spins the oppt around quickly, keeping Akira in point blank range, setting up an easy Nitaku. Again here, this move looks really cool, and works well, but it's so obvious how it's supposed to be used, and sort of does the thinking for you when it hits: follow quickly with a Throw or Good Mid. Maybe it's got bad recovery.

Akira's new Throw is ++ (same clip again), he sort of pins his forward hand behind the oppt, then hooks his back arm broadly around to smach them in the face. At fisrt I thought this might be a set-up throw, like Lei's, but I couldn't get anything to connect after it. I guess just another 1-frame throw for Akira aside from +, ++ and ++.

The SDE has been reworked, and there's no more KD from what I can tell. For sure on Yellow Counter it floats like FT, but I think on Red as well, as I've yet to see a KD from it. I did the same SDE -> -> DLC combo you see in the clip above, I did it at Ready, Go, so it's open stance after the hit. I'm curious to see what's possible on girls/close to a wall. Sad thing is in that combo, the DLC does almost less damage than the SDE itself, with the last hit taking maybe 5 damage? I know the damage scale shifts w/ more hits, but shouldn't the last and hardest part of the combo give the good chunk of damage? Overall, this combo does less than VF4 SDE -> +,/+, :/ but, the move became more interesting again

After the Stumbling Throw, both Single Palm and SDE would hit, but the Single Palm-> Byakko combo might be gone. In any case, the buffering window is changed, as neither Jack or I could seem to get the Byakko to even come out after the Single Palm, which also pushes them further away now. After SDE, I tried AS3 but the 2nd hit whiffs in open stance, just like FT. I got the Byakko out once, but I think I was too slow, as it whiffed. I'm guessing SDE->Byakko will now be the standard combo.

RBC I've seen Byakko cinnect in clips, but again the timing has changed, and I couldn't get it. my SDE attempt was guarded. After PIT-> RBC I got a nice float off the SDE, but I'm not sure what's possible. Overall, Jack felt that the timing for buffering the Byakko from standing has changed, and you need to be slower. I WOULD agree, but in some cases (yoho, , standing palm, Byakko/+, , byakko) it feels the same, so I think it's just that the recovery/buffer window timing has changed in those tighter, after Throw or other move situations. IE , + recover quickly, Single Palm, SDE, RBC recovery buffer window timing may have changed, so we don't know proper timing yet. If you play VF4, then go to Evo, you can feel the buffer window for Stumbling Throw, Single Palm, Byakko is easier in 4 than in Evo. I think there are many small changes to Akira like this in 5.

After the OM, the canned attacks didn't seem that useful to me. The is a mid punch which seems to just give some advantage. the looks like the first hit of the DLC and doesn't seem to offer much either. But, for all I know, these could be the beginnings of new "Akira Specials", who knows.

The only other new command I saw was the +, attack, which is the canned Knee into High double fisted head attack. It doesn't seem too useful/interesting to me, and actually looks pretty lame.

with the OM, I once did OM -> deep to Jack's side -> middle kick (now he's in side stun) -> SDE -> combo. The combo seemed like a Normal Hit combo, but the interesting point was how he seemed stuck in the stun between the kick and the SDE. OM is powerful!

Other than this, it seems basically like bussiness as usual for Akira. I couldn't figure out how to get the new throw where he gets to their side, which is supposed to set up a nice Nitaku. I'd say the biggest change (aside from using OM, which is universal) might end up being the use of +, the changed SDE, and the new ++. I think that throw will be the "Byakko" of VF5, the move of Akira's that everyone complains about which gets endlessly tuned. The biggest combo I got was Yoho +, DLC on el Blaze. He was floating sideways, which is more common again like it was in VF3, thanks to the OM.

I wanna play with OM-> Bodycheck.

Bryan

 

hmmm,
bryan could be right about the tracking too, its probably easier for a spectator to see, when i was concentrating on my OE movement so much.

An interesting note which relates to both posts is that how bryan got the yoho combo on elblaze and i was on a sidefloat. That was when I did my failed OE from disadvantage and after i got hit by yoho, i just kinda reeled my head away from the screen because of immenent death. So to sum it up.

You launch a failed OE -> side launch
side launches = better float = bigger damage combos.
Everyone gotta start visually training for open, closed, or side launch.

 

Ok i might of been confused by your terminology
I interpret OM as Offensive Move = the attack after Offensive Evade. If your questioning was actually about Offensive Evade (or OE as I like to call it for now) I can elaborate further. Can we get a set terminology on this?

Throw Shift/ Throw clash ???
Offensive Move/ Offensive Evade???? too confusing.

Anyways heres what it feels like.
heres a crappy drawn flowchart of the events


I hope that answers most of your questions Ice-9, maybe it will help others understand OE better that have not played the game yet, and give a better understanding of what the current released media holds.

 

That chart is actually ridiculously nice. Nice one.

/KiwE

 

A visual understanding of what im trying to explain, once again not accurate by any means, but what i've experienced in playtest. Apparently illustrator doesnt like gradients into transparencies so bear with the hideous white color.

 

A tremendous effort PhoenixDth! Your original flow chart was informative but this new visual chart leaves nothing to the imagination. You clearly portray the benefits of OMs over DMs and visa versa. Cheers.

 

Excellent OE explanation

Alex,

Thank you for putting this into pictures. Awesome work, my friend. I see ground breaking VF5 documents coming from you once the game is released. Nice, nice, nice!

Also huge thanks to akiralove and Jack for the Akira research plus all that time dedicated to OE experimentation with Alex. I can't wait to play this game.

I really like that SoCal players took the time to discover stuff exclusive to VF5 during the short time it was available. Top that off with posting it so everyone can benefit. That fucking rules.

 

Alex, super thanks for this!!! Very helpful and very well written/illustrated!

I do have a quick question--does this mean that you have to input ++ pretty quickly after or to get the offensive evade? Or can you do or , watch to see if the defensive evade is successful or failed (i.e. delay), and then ++ to get the offensive evade?

But if I understand you correctly, there are basically four evade outcomes:
- Successful defensive evade
- Failed defensive evade
- Successful offensive evade
- Failed offensive evade

I'm fine with the above: SDE, FDE, SOE, and FOE? Too bad the SDE can be confused with Akira's super dashing elbow. Thoughts? What language/name conventions do Sega and Arcadia use?

 

I'm guessing that Defensive Evade could be left as E (as in ETEG).

 

ill talk in programmer speak, if you look at my flowchart guide - the non illustrated one, successful evade cannot connect into OE.

WHILE sidestepping in the first 0-7 frames
IF no P+K+G input is detected
THEN it defaults to Defensive Evade.
ELSE Offensive evade

Also you notice that in my visual chart OE, breaks off in the middle of DE(defensive evade), not after it. So no you cant get the best of both worlds because that breaks the game. You can slightly delay OE, but not by much. I'm just estimating 7 frames is the input buffer.

We could always call Dashing Elbow just Elbow now. Akira doesnt have a standard elbow anymore to be confused with. Or as plague suggested Defensive evade can always be refered to as E.

 

Ah OK I got it now, thanks!! So it sounds like you'd still want to do OE during disadvantage (and hopefully while the opponent is doing a linear attack). The "offensive" part of OE is in how much more space is covered to the opponents' side/back in the evade.

 

No you dont want to try to attempt it at disadvantage, since it never converts into a Defensive evade. If you notice the slant of the drawing, in the early phases of Offensive evade you're still in front of the opponent. Offensive evade is a really slow move. Imagine you're trying to run diagonally across someone at a disadvantage, you'll still get hit. Like i mentioned previously, I tried to offensive evade after i had a move blocked and i got Yohoed in the side.

 

Oh...sorry obviously I'm pretty slow at this. So what causes a failed OM/OE vs. a successful OM/OE? I had assumed it was based on advantage/disadvantage a la the normal evade, but maybe it's based on the frame window available as a result of the opponent's attack and the time the OM/OE was inputted? If the latter, sounds a bit random and more like Tekken's sidestep system. That would explain why the Japanese players have been hesitant to use it however since it's so situation specific.

 

from what ive seen a failed OM/OE the person makes a small slant, where as a sucessful one dashes across forward more, maybe ill update this in my chart later.


ok ive updated my chart . . . its somewhere a couple pages back.