VF5c vane round openers

I think somebody's signature here in VFdc is a quote attributed to Myke Tyson, "everybody has a plan until they get hit". This is also true in VF: landing the blow just as the round starts is known to be very important in since you can continue to pressure and generally impose your pace upon the opponent. This is my take on how vanessa should start or "open" (a term borrowed from chess i supose) her rounds. Feel free to comment or write your own list

OS openers:
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OS agressive openers are pretty basic, featuring common tools such as jab, low punch, elbow, fast launcher (f+p+k) & far reching mid (f,f+k). OS evasive openers (b,df+p+k & b,b+k+g) enable vane to open rounds deceitfully, baiting agressive opponents and causing their attacks to whiff. Having a comprehensive round opening arsenal can intimidate or frustrate some opponents - something OS can also exploit with its argessive throw openers (df,df+p+g & DM p+k).

+ - Combining Russian Hook's high crush properties with a backdash, this sequence beats all short range moves, all highs & agressive dash > throw sequences. Additionally, it can often beat an opponent's evade > launcher sequence by provoking a failed evade & can sometimes cause a mirror backdash > launcher sequence to whiff. It basically just loses to far reaching mids. Since somehow nobody seems to block at the begining of a round, use and abuse this throw-counterable move while you still can, since its properties have been drastically altered in VF5R.

- Good ol' cockpunch stuffs every attack & recovers fast enough to block an opponent who went for the evade > launcher sequence. Roughly speaking it only loses to jumping/anti-low attacks & backdash > launcher sequence. If you're content with doing chip damage and setting the pace instead of trying to score big damage from the get go, this is your move.

+ - Pile Bunker is fast enough to interrupt (almost) every mid atack and demoralize your opponent with an early float. This will definetly take care of any "anti-low" or "far-reaching mid" ideas your opponent might have. It loses to many options though, such as high jabs, all lows, evade > launcher & backdash > launcher so judge wisely.

- Contrary to f+p+k, you can't go wrong with using vane's 11f jab, except when faced with 10f jabbers that is! The string is fast, safe & hard to punish with evade > launcher or backdash > launcher due to forward momentum & a highly delayable 3rd hit. Being vulnerable to low attacks and anti-highs is a fair trde-off.

- The above OS round openers share a common flaw: they are easily countered by patient opponents using spacing to their advantage and waiting for vane to whiff. This is where the Landing Knee comes in: while it will lose to fast attacks, this far reaching, floor scraping mid guarantees there will be no backdashing shenanigans happening on your watch.

+ - Combo potential alone justifies using a sluggish more like Back Charge Kick as a round opener. Losing half their lifebar just because they whiffed an attack is something that will definetly demoralize your opponent.

- Well, OS has an elbow, there's no harm in using it. It can lose to lots of stuff, but on the other hand it probably won't be anything that takes half your lifebar away so, yeah, it can be useful to gauge an opponent's habits.

+ - Something picked up from jeffry players, this exploits the fact that OS has a df,df input throw. Crouchdash > throw beats highs, evade > launcher & might clash with slower mids. It's far from the safest of options but, if you have good reflexes, you can train to hit the guard button instead of throw in time to block in case your opponents opens with an mid attack.

DM + - Sure, pulling a Brisal is hella unsafe but, the way i see it, if my opponent is groaning and trying to escape takedown moments after the round starts, i've already won. Same as b,df+p+k, use and abuse while you can because this rule-breaking catch throw is going away in VF5R.

DS openers:
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DS openers are clunky, as expected from DS afterall. Lacking both an elbow & a fast launcher, DS has to make up for it by using unconventional techniques. While sabaki can compensate for that deficiency, competent opponents will alternate between all of their possible openers, meaning that betting on the wrong sabaki can get vane killed. Leaving second-guessing for the heat of the battle, opening rounds with faster moves seems like a much safer bet.

- Same reasoning as with OS, cockpunch is a low risk-low reward round opener, nothing more, nothing less.

- DS doesn't have the luxury of OS p,k or OS f+p+k so you'll just have to make up for it by trying to set up those damaging DS throws with vanilla jab.

(fuzzy) - Bone Crush Middle is not particularly fast, but it will definetly counter any anti-high or anti-low punch ideas your opponent might have formed after seeing you open with the first two moves. While it will lose to punches, low punches & elbows, it does enough damage to stuff slower attacks (including mid launchers) and has just enough reach to nail retreating opponents. Add some fuzzy guarding from time to time to throw your opponent's timing off and you've got yourself a decent round opener.

WR - Crush Jaw is a tough move to pull off but, if executed impeccably, somewhat makes up for vanessa's lack of 14f mid & fast launcher. While it will neither crouch stagger nor combo, it will at least beat everything except punch, low punch & trade with elbows. If your timing is off it might lose to more attacks but might also beat high attacks & evade > launcher sequences due to the built-in crouchdash. Just make sure that (contrary to the way you input OS df,df+p+g) you pause between df,df and p otherwise you'll end up with df,DF+p (which kinda sucks).

WR - Another weird input, this is the DS version of the "backdash > launcher" sequence. It only floats at CH but on CH vane will be in closed stance so the pppk float will work (except against a Jacky player who switched footing). Being +1 on hit doesn't hurt either. For the record, backdash > df+k+g can make the hit-throw whiff and f+k+g is on the slow side - we'll have to wait for VF5R to toy with better backdash > launcher sequences from DS.

evade > + - This is the DS version of the "evade > launcher" sequence. While it happens to be high, the df+k+g alternative requires good input skills and (even if you manage to nail the hit-throw each time) lacks in the damage department. There's also the "hold guard, press punch" evasive attacks but the Boomerang Hook is much safer.

+ - If you can pretty much guess that your opponent will be taking evasive measures when the round starts, this is the move you're looking for. It completely shuts down backdashes, evades & sabaki. Just make sure your yomi is sharp because, being 21f exe, Shadow Slicer can be foiled by any agressive round openening strategy, including getting floated by the dreaded 17 frame knee.

- Not the best possible opener but, hey, if you're planning to win by attrition you'll have to start grinding right away.

- This is as "zen" as a round opener gets, and it's suprisingly effective: when left idle, DS vanessa will automatically inashi punches. This is neither an attack (so no counterhits) nor a defensive measure (so no 0f throws). Meanwhile you can always hit a button if you see your opponent doing something funny. Hence, by forfeiting immediate damage, you can study what your opponent is doing and counter accordingly, making Hand Hold a good round opener when you first encounter an opponent.

 

Best round opener: Backdash/Box step
Second best round opener: Guard
Everything else: At your own risk.

 

everything: at your own risk

 

I thought the same thing, backdash and guard can be beat easily if you know your opponent will start the round with those.

A low risk move like 2p or whatever is just as safe, imo.

 

Please stop doing that.

 

I'm not saying that attacking as a round opener is inherently wrong or that my listed options are risk free, it definitely isn't. but those two options I wrote is basically the ones with the lowest risk and, while the opponent can of course beat it, he will generally have to do something like dash in throw which is one of the riskiest round openers you can do. So basically, doing a simple backdash/box step at the beginning of the round is a low risk move that takes a high risk move to be beaten.

In the end, my post is not meant as a diss or a correction to the original post at all, merely an addendum or side opinion.

 

thanks for the post erdraug. This should help a lot of vanessa users! It is a fun and valuable game--to try and win the round opener with a strong move. I can vouch that it is a great skill to feel like u posses. '

You can't stress enough, especially to newer players, that every tool helps. No matter how small an advantage or a skill, every piece is valuable to the puzzle. Sometimes it's the miniature pieces that prove to be the winning ones!

 

Personally, I think doing a slow launcher is the riskiest option you can do, because it can be backdashed, sidestepped, blocked, or interrupted.
On the other hand, if opponent always box steps in the beginning of the round, there is no risk at all to forward dash. Don't forget that forward dash can be canceled with guard, making it sort of safer than backdash.. Personally I use a forward stairstep a fair bit, when I feel my opponents tend to backdash a lot ( )

Fdashing is more risky than using a fast move to catch opponent backdashing though, like Lei +. I havent been able to test but I've been caught by that a lot when trying to backdash or box step.

 

Thanks for the compliments social_ruin, to be honest i'm just glad my post did not stir an uproar -- you should see the silly advice i gave back in VF4evo

Speaking of uproars, Jeneric, Manji, Bfeck, sure, defensive manouvers are in order, i just think they are more suited for DS (as evidenced by the fact that i only mention CD, backwalk, fuzzy and even neutral there) I admit that boxstep completely flew by me since i am not able to perform it . Thank you for pointing it out. Concerning OS however, opening defensively is counter-productive IMHO since the russian hook, pile bunker and landing knee are just too good to be ignored.

Finally, Marly, that sounds like a monumental amount of work, looking forward to it!

 

Great post erdraug. Personally I tend to agree with what Jeneric say overall. Regardless great info developing Vanessa players like me thrive on it. Great job and keep it up.

 

DS kills stepping btw so there's definitely no universal solution to opening rounds, against vane at least That said, Jeneric and Marly have already offered their own favourite round openers, it would be nice to hear from other vanessa players what they frequently use to open rounds - so how about you Shadowmaster? Do you have your own favourite? I'm also impatient to know Chefboy_OB's opinion, he's always putting the smack down on me right off the bat

As far as i am concerned, I think i'm having some major difficulties getting a point across. It might be language-related so let me reiterate:

Out of the two stances DS is (obviously) more suited to defense. This should be the stance that uses defensive maneuvers and openers such as guard, hand-hold, backwalk, crouchdashes, stepping too e.t.c. However, if the Vanessa player switches to OS, it's because he wants to be on the offensive. Think about it, OS doesn't just happen, you have to hit + + , it means there's an active choice to switch stances in order to take advantage of OS' unique features. Treating the two stances indifferently only results in sub-optimal gameplay

This is why i firmly believe that the most prudent OS opener should be ; if i'm going to be any more prudent than that, i might as well switch back to DS

 

Yeah, but with OS almost all of her moves are linear so if you come swinging out of the gates and they evade you are majorly screwed. And more than likely they are going to evade or box step since you switch to OS, because they expect you attack, if you are using that mentality you mentioned before.

 

True, and since I focused my offline training on playing an OS Vanessa most of the time. I find my best friend is my ability to delay my attacks slightly at the start every so often so their side stepping won't hurt me so much. This is what I do most of the time at the start of the round but doesn't Vanessa have any moves in OS that tracks people that try to side step on certain occassions like Pai's 6P,K does sometimes.

 

I am by no means a Vanessa expert, but my favorite opener when I wanted to use OS was +,. It hides the switch, so it usually baits the opponent into some nice punishment.

 

Erdraug, don't forget that opponent can see what stance you are at. If youre always predictable from OS then its a weakness..

ps. Im pretty sure shadow slicer is so slow it can be blocked with proper stair step.

 

In that case i apologize, stepping should indeed be placed first and foremost on the list of possible openers just as Jeneric suggested; perhaps a moderator would be so kind as to add it sometime in the future?

 

Nah, shadow slicer is a good option if opponent does ONLY backdashes and stuff.. proper stepping is still pretty rare.

 

You will get no better advice than that bro. If you are feeling ballsy and want to go for the ultimate fuck you opener... just go with neutral DS stance hand grab and the follow up. What else can say fuck you more than grabbing their hand right at the beginning of a match followed by an uppercut?