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VF5FS Lion Channles/Vids

Discussion in 'Lion' started by Mackfactor, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. DomAug

    DomAug Danger Lion Content Manager Lion Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    domaug
    crazy match between me and a random Shun in ranked mode. i'm not too proud of how i did in this one but the ending was worth the upload.

     
  2. Omnistalgic

    Omnistalgic Active Member

    PSN:
    Omnistalgic
    Hurricane KICK FTW!!!!
     
    DomAug likes this.
  3. F1RE_FL00D

    F1RE_FL00D Active Member

    That was beastly. @darksoul173's video
     
  4. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    USA East Coast player Masang Lion is very good! You can watch him fight it out with Cozby starting at 1:31:45 at the following link! Very, very clean Lion--I love it!

    http://www.twitch.tv/ugslive/b/331532326
     
  5. MisterRadon

    MisterRadon Member

    PSN:
    MisterRadon
    XBL:
    MisterRadon
    Okay, I'm not putting this up here because I think these matches were good and I want to show off - I feel like, considering the way I learn things, critiquing me directly is the best chance of my improving. Hopefully everyone can give me some feedback!

    I know DomAug was watching, and I caught some of his comments in the stream chat. Reading them after my matches, I 100% agreed with everything he said and I'll address below. Without further ado here are my matches from my bracket in VFDC Circuit:

    http://www.twitch.tv/jaidinsin/b/331788022

    @ 12:11 - vs. dagcon_faraday (AK)
    @ 18:30 - vs. Genzen (JA)
    @ 32:05 - vs. exzetyXaT1 (KA)
    @ 36:10 - vs. Zero-chan (VA)
    @ 1:01:00 - vs. AyuFanb0y (EL)

    So here's what I for sure know needs work:

    1. My offense is WAY too reliant on 2_3P, especially out of 2P pokes. I've been working on incorporating TRSF guard breaks into my game to set up 44K BnBs instead as my go-to combo starter, and I'm at a point where I can do it confidently in my local group, against people that I have experience playing against and a read on. In a 1 set, 5 round game like this, I think it got stuffed once early against Akira and I put it away for the rest of the night. Furthermore, I admit that 2P -> 2_3P happens with me a lot when I am trying to simply keep my poke game going and whiff my inputs going from 2P to 6P without returning to neutral. I'd like to adjust to using 33P instead when the situation calls for it because I know it has a much more inherent upside, but it doesn't mesh well with my zero-range pressure-style right now. Which leads to my second problem...

    2. I have an extremely poor range game with Lion. I need to be judicious and make better use of 6K and 3K, but when I backdash out and space to kill my opponent's momentum, I tend to be at a loss as to how to close the gap and get back in to where Lion's low frames and plentiful options make him, in my opinion his strongest. But then I do land something and.....

    3. I am clueless when it comes to maximizing damage output. I'm by and large self-taught with Lion and so my instincts are for combos I've worked on and adapted from 4Evo's training mode into Vanilla 5 and then FS. I think I've got a fairly good grasp on making good use of most of Lion's tools to punish and stay relatively safe, but when I land a combo starter, I know I'm not getting everything I can out of my opportunities. I tend to stick with safe, low-damage options that I've done so many times that they're almost automatic. I've been working on a few of the combos I've picked up off the forums here, but again my comfort level wasn't there with them tonight, and once momentum swung away from me in the first game I got a lot less adventurous and just played my game - serious flaws and all.

    4. I don't side turn my opponent. At all. And I know I need to but it's a part of the game I'm just now beginning to figure out, and it seems to be a scenario that's hard to drill in using a training dummy. I know how I can sideturn, and I might even get a few off on accident, but I let them right themselves or just throw out a quick PPP string and let them re-orient.

    5. I give up on strong fundamentals too easily and go for my bad habits. I think you'll see especially against Genzen, I'm trying to force him into an off-rhythm poke mixup to set up throws and then begin on oki setups, but once he starts beating my pokes, and more importantly my throws, I'm just trying to get in his face, abare abare abare, beat him on frames and end the round.

    I could go over these again and again and find more(like stand guarding after any whiffs for way way way too long), but I'm dead tired and have a job interview in the morning. These are some of the things that I know I need to work on and would really like to know exactly how and specifically I can get to work on improving. I know I've discussed a couple of these aspects of my game on other threads, but I figure if you can all see my in-match behavior and help me analyze my patterns, the things you can tell me will help me put these new habits directly into situations I already put myself in.
     
    Chanchai and DomAug like this.
  6. DomAug

    DomAug Danger Lion Content Manager Lion Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    domaug
    i really like that you rewatched your matches and noticed what needed to change. just wanna see you improve because i think its nice to have solid Lion players. your stuff is there, but it just needs work. despite how i did last night, i got away with a lot of crap too. i got very lucky with my long range 66P poke. also i got some lucky sweeps in. unfortunately the players who watched me and took mental notes will now eat that stuff up.

    i enjoy watching players learn Lion. it seems the US doesnt embrace Lion as much as they could. i mean, FS took a character who was meh in VF3 and VF4, and worse in Vanilla, and made him significantly dangerous enough to finally be top tier. just a year or two ago, i watched Lion FS videos and i was glowing with joy over his new toys. i digress; its nice to see any VF player wanting to constantly better themself (even after some wins), but its personally a bit nicer for me to see Lion players wanting to better themselves.

    my main critiques were in your setup style and your tendency to drop combos. you managed to beat players like Zerochan and exzety but unfortunately Genzen and others picked up on your reads early on and made you pay for it. you can afford to go for some throws (i suggest HCB [P]+[G] and [6][1][P]+[G] mixups personally). also, practice some bread and butter combos in Dojo. they will help you greatly, although some of your combos werent bad like CH [1][K] ~ [P][K][P].

    those are just a few critiques that i remember and the only ones i care to type on my ipod. id be happy to help out with more stuff in room matches or something. id have to invite MCTripleTrix probably because i wanted to help him out too lol
     
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    MisterRadon,

    I really like the initiative you took here and your sharing your matches and your thoughts! Also, keep it up! Your Lion will improve and it seems like while you are self-taught you have found a good pace with the game and are on a generally good path ^_^

    I really want to write a nice detailed post for you here, but I'm currently flooded with work, otherwise I would write a lot of things with what I see from skimming your matches. But I will try to write a quick few things (turns out work be damned, I want to write my thoughts out for you!):

    * I do like the pace you are working with in this game and some sense that you have developed learning on your own. That said...

    * You are very reliant on strings at the moment. That's not so bad, necessarily, but I think you will realize how strong your options are when you make use of certain moves that either give you more flexibility (and safety) in options and damage as well as a better ability to control the match. However, for you to do that, you will most likely need to get better at...

    * Hit Checking is a tough one. It seems to me you don't hit check much, more like you throw 2P in hopes of hitting. BTW, hit-checking is not easy at all, so I'm not saying it is something you should have been doing weeks ago or anything like that. But I am saying that you will get stronger when you focus on this part of the game (though you will probably also see a drop in results/performance for awhile while you work it out). The other note though, is that hit-checking is harder online than it is offline--but it is something you can always train, even against AI ^_^ Much like I said that you seem to throw 2P in hopes of hitting (interrupting your opponent) with it, I think you naturally migrated towards PPP instead of P(G) because PPP is probably the higher damage string from P and it is a way to play with hoping to hit with P. Speaking of P...

    * In the long-run, I think you will get much stronger when you get used to hit checking the basic pokes of VF: 2P, P(G), and 6P (elbow). 6P covers that mid range you were concerned about too ^_^ In fact, hit checking with these will even help you with using 33P (I actually input it 323P, it's all preference hehe) properly without relying too heavily on the BS properties of that move.

    * For example, let's say you do P(G) and it hits and you see that it hits, you can do 33P quickly and interrupt almost every attack your opponent might use against you in this situation and get your combo. I will give you a sample flowchart, not intended to be the best flowchart, but intended to give you ideas of how to use the basic pokes more effectively and with some of the options you already know well ^_^

    * Like many attacks with good upside in VF5FS, overuse of 33P is actually a bit dangerous. You are open to guaranteed attack if it is evaded early enough and from most flowchart situations--especially from the 2P flowchart. Just be aware of this and try to punish your opponent if they are clearly targeting this (like if you hit them with 2P and you realize they always evade your uppercut, then throw them instead).

    * Flowcharts are harder to use online than offline, because of lag...You might have to buffer things earlier (and thus use some educated guessing) when playing online, to execute a flowchart.

    Sample Flowchart (not optimal):
    • P(G)
      • --> Whiffed (quite a bit of disadvantage for you) --> Defend (high block, low block, evade, etc...)
      • --> Blocked (+2 for you) --> 6P (elbow)
      • --> Hit (+5 for you) --> 33P (can also use 6K if you want) OR throw, but opponent can fuzzy guard here.
      • --> Counter-Hit (+8 for you) --> mid launcher you are comfortable with or OR throw. Opponent cannot fuzzy guard this, opponent cannot duck throw.
        • You have a lot of options here, especially if your opponent's jab is 12 frames and not 11 frames. Pretty much do the mid attack you want here and experiment, and if you think your opponent will evade or block, then you go for throw in this situation.
    2P and Elbow flowcharts are similar except that a blocked 2P and blocked 6P is -5 for you (in which case you can do 335G for fuzzy guard as one of your defensive options).

    I hope these sample options will help make the frames make more sense to you when you look at the command list. But most importantly, I hope this illustrates that you can setup more direct mindgames and possible control of the match with the individual moves instead of just the strings.

    The downside to using strings too much, is that the upside can be very limited and the game can be limited to success vs. failure to make contact.

    Anyways, just meaning to be helpful and I know you've probably read stuff like the above before, but it's really important and having your game show more understanding (as opposed to just knowing) can greatly help your game--at least that is my belief.

    While the stuff above is basic, it's not easy. I could go into more topics too, but this aspect stood out the most to me in watching your matches and I think it's a lot of food for thought already. Also, I think that if you do improve on this aspect of your game, you will see some really big gains both in effectiveness (again, after a temporary performance hit while you work it out) and in your understanding of the game's mechanics and how to apply it ^_^

    That said, keep it up! Looking forward to more from you!
     
  8. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    me lion vs akira comments good and bad criticism is welcome and always

     
    Angelo Miguel Moreira likes this.
  9. MisterRadon

    MisterRadon Member

    PSN:
    MisterRadon
    XBL:
    MisterRadon
    My only criticism is that you stop ducking me in ranked. :p Other than that, from my point of view you played a solid game and all I can really suggest is how I deal with the Akira matchup.

    I try to open by playing a very reactionary game to Akira, because I find that he has a hard time winning out in a close-quarters poke battle, something you did very well in the fourth round of the first game for a while. Note that when you let up and tried to fuzzy, he caught you and ended the round.

    I wait for my opening and I punish whiffs or bait a chance to use a defensive move since he has very, very few moves that have any non-linear striking properties. I try to stay close because from further out, a super dashing elbow is almost always going to beat Lion. I also try to avoid moves of 20 frames or more that don't hit 360 - though this guy didn't use any, I am extremely mindful of eating a sidestep CH 466P+K and losing 120 health in one hit. You don't want to give up any more frames than you need to because Akira players can make use of that move alone to make you give up the pressure game entirely.

    In the poke game it's very important to utilize sneaky lows like 1K+G and 2P+K because Akira has a useful sabaki that handles highs and mids at the same time and leads into decent damage, but you can't get too predictable since he also has a fair amount of reversals at his disposal. I also find that Akira is better suited to setting up fast guard breaks than Lion, and a good Akira player will be able to get at least 50-80 damage off of a guard break every time, so it's important that if you're in, you're attacking, and if you're losing frame advantage, you bait out an attack to sidestep, risk the backdash without eating an elbow or - and this requires a hell of a read - stop guarding when you feel the guard break coming. If Akira breaks your guard with the one I see most commonly used, he's +15, if the move hits instead, he goes -10.

    Finally, I feel extremely confident in Lion's abilities to stay close and deal with Akira on wake-up. To me, he feels sluggish getting off the ground, so if your opponent fails to tech or techs without you having too many recovery frames, stay close, stay aggressive, but above all else, stay conservative. If an Akira is trying to out-offense your pokes rather than making use of his defensive tools, you'll be able to land a lot of CH and get some fun combos started without taking a great deal of risk.

    I think from an offensive perspective you did very well here, especially in the later phases of each game, but I also feel like this Akira player really didn't utilize many of the tools that make him so dangerous, and were he doing that, you would not have had nearly as much room for small errors that you recovered from. You kept him guessing, and your creativity landed you some big combos, and that definitely worked in your favor. With a character than can safely end a round in 2 touches and a poke though, you want to make them scared to attack early and then don't surrender the chance again.

    Anyways, that's just my thoughts on fighting Akiras in general, as it is a matchup I face probably more frequently than most other characters. Nice vids!
     
  10. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    Sorry about "ducking" but i don't play 0 bars
     
    Pai~Chun likes this.
  11. AnimalStaccato

    AnimalStaccato Well-Known Member

    0 bars are just very frustrating to play on.
     
  12. MisterRadon

    MisterRadon Member

    PSN:
    MisterRadon
    XBL:
    MisterRadon
    Yeah, I figured it was the 0 bar thing after the second time it happened and I got a look at the connection. I was just kidding anyways, it's all cool.
     
  13. ExzetyXat1

    ExzetyXat1 Well-Known Member

    Mister Radon I loved our match especially at the end our little standoff ;). You got me running away from you! I want a rematch.
     
    Chanchai likes this.
  14. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T! Content Manager Sarah

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    Lion meaty stuff

     
  15. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member


    Excuse me, while I hit the Dojo...

    Lion Meaty Heaven = ewww, gross sounding....
     
    DomAug likes this.
  16. Shinobi

    Shinobi Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Spiros_1978
    From now on, I won't complain again about Lion's damage :p
     
  17. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Don't forget PP4P stuff is not easy to setup. You need perfect distance for the second P to hit the wall. It may seem easy in the video but it's not.
    I found that playing with the rythm of PP4P input can help adjust the distance (it lets the hit animation push the opponent a bit more before canceling into the next hit).
    So doing PP(slight pause)4P makes it a bit easier especialy if you are a bit far from the wall. Since PP4P is not a natural combo you are not losing damage by delaying the last hit, and the wall hit stun will still allow a combo, so it's a win/win imo.
     
    Chanchai likes this.
  18. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T! Content Manager Sarah

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    The video is showing not only meaties but things Lion can do from guaranteed [P] Side Hit situations. Overall with practice, this isnt too hard to apply.

    The main focus is gauging when the opponent will hit the wall from a Side Turned situation.
     
    Chanchai likes this.
  19. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member


    Yeah, the last few months I've been showing Portland why they should hate Lion's High Punch. That said, they've also shown me why I need to make sure I'm using it in the right situations. But yeah, Lion has a lot of great stuff coming from his high jab, especially on sideturned opponents. The wall stuff is not easy, like what Chibitox was saying--but so rewarding ^_^
     
  20. Angelo Miguel Moreira

    Angelo Miguel Moreira Member

    XBL:
    Takasugi PT

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