Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Libertine, Apr 15, 2012.
Does anybody know what the following video is demonstrating?
It looks like the vid is trying to imply that alternatively inputting certain commands by ++ is more efficient in executing attacks without losing frames (using Jean as the example)
Low Punch Example:
input - hit opponent at 13 frames
++ alt. input - hit opponent at 12 frames
Standing Punch Example:
input - hit opponent at 13 frames
++ alt. input - hit opponent at 12 frames
input - hit opponent at 15 frames
++ alt. input - hit opponent at 14 frames
Looking at the different examples...not sure if 1) it is alt. input that is causing the different frames in which attack hit or 2) is attack hitting at a later active frame due to opponent's distance.
These infos are gold. Someone please put it in a topic aside. I'm going to test it once the FS drops.
Thread is separated from the the VF5 Final Showdown Video Thread.
I imagine this won't work for all character as some characters have commands for 6P+K+G like eileen's forward monkey walk (for lack of better word), or P+K+G for her HP/HK sabaki. 3P+K+G would work for her though, unless she has some new command for that too. Very interesting.
2P isn't 13f. You can see as much watch a few FS match vids. It lands on the 13th frame there because of the range created by Kage's stance.
According to the video, this is something that has been around since VF4 Evo but was forgotten about.
It seems that moves done using P+K+G activate a split second faster than moves using any other combination of buttons. This part is conjecture, but apparently this is done so that if your timing is slightly off when pressing multiple buttons for moves such as K+G or P+G, the move will still go off as planned without you having to hit the inputs on the exact same frame. However, if you hit P+K+G with perfect timing, there's no need for the system to wait a frame for any other input, because you've hit all the buttons already. It results in the move activating faster.
The guy also writes that you can do this to activate Brad's 2P by using 1P+K+G or 3P+K+G.
The player might leave his hand 1f slower with P+K+G. The video wasn't in a tight criteria.
Didnt Oshu use this in his pop up ppp dblplm combos in Evo?
It's not difficult to test actually. Setup the even situation and compare 2P VS 2P+K+G or 6P VS 6P+K+G to see which one got hit.
Nice, I'm guessing this would apply to any character that has either 1,2,or 3 P+K+G available, pretty handy.
Okay, there's been confusion over this mechanic in the Shout Box. I'll expound upon El_Twelve's explanation the best that I can.
The mechanic works as a safety net in case input time is late in an attempt to press two or more buttons simultaneously. So say I enter as my input. The system will initiate the jab one frame after it reads my input to confirm, within one frame's time, that I meant to input and not or . Also, this delay time doesn't exist with moves as there's no possibility that the player meant to press a fourth button, as one doesn't exist.
Wait a minute! I've been at +X many times and my move with X execution hit. There's no frame loss.
In this case, you've buffered a move so the system confirmed that you meant to enter your guaranteed attack within the buffer window. This mechanic works in a neutral situation.
I've tested with a move that's +/- 0 on guard and I didn't notice a difference.
Even with a move that yields a neutral frame situation, it's still possible to buffer an attack within a move's ending animation. The surest way to test is to begin a match where one person attacks with and the other with , providing this character doesn't have that command mapped to something else. Also, use the same character so that the factors of reach and relative jab speed won't come into play.
So wait... in a neutral situation using something like instead of makes my jab faster?
No, the execution speed remains the same. Using the former input method just ensures that the move initiates sooner. The concept is similar to the execution of Pai's vs. her . The execution speeds for both are identical. For the latter though, the system is waiting for to be released to confirm that the player isn't attempting a jump (entered with Hold ). This will take at least one frame. Conversely, with the input method under consideration the system needs one frame to confirm that the player isn't attempting an input with more than one button press before the can begin.
With which moves is this mechanic applicable?
This mechanic will work with any move where no overlap in notation exists. For instance, if a character has an elbow in his repertoire with the command , as long as he doesn't have a move with the command or , the move will activate sooner than it would by utilizing the notation in a purely neutral situation.
This is my understanding of the mechanic, but if there's any errors then please post here. I'm as eager to confirm everything as everybody else!
I've tested Kage's 9K+G, and Jeffry/Wolf's K+G. The result didn't show that 2P+K+G is faster than regular 2P. Even considering the buffer, and I am the one who tend to buffer my 2P+K+G, not CPU.
The jump has a conflict input so system takes extra time to read. Well, I don't think these two are under the same category.
If, I mean if, this is true, VF has glitch now.
Yeah, you buffered the move Dennis. However, if there's any time to buffer a move at all then this mechanic is non applicable no matter how is entered by either player. Both low punches should have connected at the same time.
I also wouldn't refer to this as a glitch. This mechanic was probably intentionally included in the game. Overall the trick shouldn't make too much of an impact on gameplay. I think that the purely neutral frame situation would probably not be encountered too often.
Buffer at neural situation doesn't give me any credit, and my 2P+K+G is the same as CPU 2P.
I can't say I'm 100% correct about this alternative input, but seriously 1f different means a lot.
In the situation at which you are, the execution speeds are the same, yes. "Neutral" maybe wasn't the best term.
I think that in general a difference of 1 frame can mean a lot, but not so much in the limited application of this input method.
Dennis, but it's not supposed to be faster. Both and execute at the same speed, 12f. In the situations you tested, the inputs were buffered.
The alternative input being described is only relevant when you're talking about non-buffered inputs.
As already mentioned, in a non-buffered situation (e.g. standing idle) there's at least a frame wasted between you pressing the button, and the actual Punch attack starting execution.
The video is counting how many frames pass between a non-buffered button press and the attack actually hitting. This is just evidence of VF's command interpreter at work, and is not a measure of the execution time of the attack. In both cases, the low punch always executes in 12f.
The additional buttons allow you to short circuit the command interpreter by ensuring that no other command is possible with that input.
No. Akira can't use as a substitute for , for obvious reasons (Stun Palm).
Furthermore, for those characters that can use as a substitute, I believe it doesn't move them forward at all making it useless for combos that require forward movement.
In original VF5, Pai's input, even when buffered, will always execute at 15 frames (which is a reason that there are two entries for the move in the command list). So this might not be the right analogy.
Yeah, thanks for that akai. Nonetheless, there's a difference of one frame before the first Swallow Kick is able to damage the opponent between the two inputs in a non-buffered situation. The concept is still similar, at least.
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