VF5FS PKG Cancel Rankings

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by akai, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
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    There was a question by Dennis in the the VF5:FS Videos Thread about Jacky's [P][K]-[G] cancel, which reminded me of dora nekoaki's blog/youtube video that I saw a while ago. The blog/youtube entry was titled PK-Cancel Ranking



    The main point that I got from the article/video is that the eight character's [P][K]-[G] cancel are quite different from each other. I am not sure how accurate the information is. I think there might be some typos in the original article (or it could be I don't have a full understanding of the topic). Most of the information does make sense if you take time to look at the numbers. And Dora Nekoaki appears to put a lot of time compiling the data. So here is a rough translation of the information, until I have more time (or someone else to help :)) to tidy it up.

    Code:
    1. Jacky    Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           24   27   +3
                Hit Stun               12   12   ±0
                Guard Stun, Self       12   12   ±0
                Guard Stun, Opponent    7   17  -10
    
                On Guard               -5   +2   -7
                Normal Hit             +5   +5   ±0
                Counter Hit            +8   +8   ±0
    
    
    2. Sarah    Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           26   27   +1
                Hit Stun               14   12   -2
                Guard Stun, Self       14   15   +1
                Guard Stun, Opponent   10   17   -7
              
                On Guard               -4   +2   -6
                Normal Hit             +3   +5   -2
                Counter Hit            +6   +8   -2
    
    3. Kage     Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           26   27   +1
                Hit Stun               15   13   -2
                Guard Stun, Self       15   16   +1
                Guard Stun, Opponent   10   18   -8
    
                On Guard               -5   +2   -7
                Normal Hit             +3   +5   -2
                Counter Hit            +6   +8   -2
    
    4. Wolf     Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           27   27   ±0
                Hit Stun               15   12   -3
                Guard Stun, Self       15   15   ±0
                Guard Stun, Opponent   10   17   -7
    
                On Guard               -5   +2   -7
                Normal Hit             +2   +5   -3
                Counter Hit            +5   +8   -3
    
    5. Eileen   Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           27   27   ±0
                Hit Stun               16   13   -3
                Guard Stun, Self       15   15   ±0
                Guard Stun, Opponent    9   18   -9
              
                On Guard               -7   +2   -9
                Normal Hit             +2   +5   -3
                Counter Hit            +5   +8   -3
    
    6. Akira    Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           28   27   -1
                Hit Stun               16   12   -2
                Guard Stun, Self       16   15   -1
                Guard Stun, Opponent    9   17   -8
    
                On Guard               -5   +2   -7
                Normal Hit             +1   +5   -4
                Counter Hit            +4   +8   -4
    
    7. Brad     Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           28   27   -1
                Hit Stun               16   12   -4
                Guard Stun, Self       16   15   -1
                Guard Stun, Opponent    8   17   -9
    
                On Guard               -8   +2  -10
                Normal Hit             +1   +5   -4
                Counter Hit            +4   +8   -4
    
    8. Blaze    Category/Situation    PKG   P   Diff
                ------------------    ---  ---  ----
                Total Frames           30   27   -3
                Hit Stun               18   12   -6
                Guard Stun, Self       18   12   ±0
                Guard Stun, Opponent   10   17   -7
    
                On Guard               -8   +2  -10
                Normal Hit             -1   +5   -6
                Counter Hit            +2   +8   -6
    
    The frame data/terminology that most people should be familiar with is the "Total Frames," "On Guard," "Normal," and "Counter Hit." The less common terminology and I might reword it is the "hit and guard stun." The japanese characters "kouka" literally translates to "hardening." I believe this is identical to the recovery phase mentioned in the wiki.

    The numbers in the first column is the frame data for [P][K]-[G] cancel. According to dora nekoaki's chart, some character's [P][K]-[G] cancel will take less total frames compared to just [P] only (the second column). In addition, depending on the interaction of the strike against the opponent (Guard or Hit) their are subtle differences between each character. The third column is the differences between the two numbers in the second column.

    I will try to make the numbers more understandable (please comment if it does not make sense or if it does make sense), but now I need sleep.

    A quick note: The frame advantage/disadvantage for [P][K]-[G] on Hit/CH is = (normal [P] only frame adv/disadv)+(frame difference of hit "stun")
     
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
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    Myke623
    I reformatted the table to improve readability, and swapped Eileen and Wolf around as they were in the wrong order according to the video.

    So if you're reading this and still don't understand what the hell's going on, let me try to break it down for you with a mini FAQ, based on questions I asked myself in attempting to understand what it all meant.


    1. Is [P][K][G] generally better than [P]?
    No. The Guard, Normal Hit (NH) and Counter Hit (CH) frames for [P][K][G] are worse when compared to a regular [P]. The ever-so-minor exception to this rule is Jacky whose frames after NH and CH are the same, but his frames after [P][K][G] "On Guard" are still worse than his [P] (7 frames worse in fact).

    The frames are generally worse because a [P][K][G] typically increases the total duration time compared to a regular [P].

    However, this discovery shows that in some cases, and for only a few characters, the [P][K][G] actually reduces the total duration time when compared to a regular [P]. More on this in the next question.


    2. Why are the characters ranked this way?
    The top three ranked characters -- Jacky, Sarah and Kage -- stand out above the rest because they're the only characters who can reduce the total duration of a [P] by doing [P][K][G] instead. Jacky is no.1 because he alone nets the largest saving of 3 frames. Sarah and Kage both save just a single frame, but Sarah edges ahead because her [P][K][G] "On Guard" is one frame better than Kage's (still, both are worse compared to regular [P]!)

    Why is reducing the total duration considered a good thing? That's explained in the next question.

    The remaining cast are then just ranked on frame differences in Total Frames, then the Guard, Normal Hit and Counter Hit.


    3. So how can I apply this?
    The main (and probably only?) application for this is to reduce your total duration in the event that the opponent evades your [P][K][G]. In other words, by shortening the amount of time it takes for you to whiff, you actually give yourself a few extra frames of advantage. Remember, Jacky gets an additional 3 frames, which is pretty massive when you consider what happens in the end demo with Jacky.

    The end of the video demonstrates this application by showing two sequences with Jacky:

    Sequence I
    1. Jacky Normal Hits with [P][K] and gets +4f advantage.
    2. Jacky follows up with [P][K][G] (24f total) which the opponent successfully evades.
    3. Jacky effectively recovers in 20f due to the advantage (24 total - 4 adv).
    4. Opponent recovers in 23f due to the successful evade.
    Result: Jacky is at +3f advantage (23 - 20) therefore, Jacky's 14f high back fist Counter Hits Kage's 11f high punch.​

    Sequence II
    1. Jacky Guards Kage's [3][K] and gets +6f advantage.
    2. Jacky follows up with [P][K][G] (24f total) which the opponent successfully evades.
    3. Jacky effectively recovers in 18f due to the advantage (24 total - 6 adv).
    4. Opponent recovers in 23f due to the successful evade.
    Result: Jacky is at +5f advantage (23 - 18) therefore, Jacky's 17f high angle kick Counter Hits Kage's 12f low punch.​

    Neither of these sequences would work if Jacky did a regular [P] instead of the [P][K][G]. In both cases, Jacky would have been Counter Hit instead!

    A minor application for using [P][K][G] is within combos. A [P][K][G] (especially when you're holding [6_]) covers more forward distance than a regular [P], so it may be helpful to close the gap. Also, for cases where the [P][K][G] duration is greater than [P], it can introduce a minimum frame delay that may be required for certain combos. For example, Akira's [P][K][G] has a duration of 28f, whereas his [P] is just 27f. Therefore, using Akira's [P][K][G] in place of [P] is an easy way of introducing a 1-frame delay for the next attack. Or, in Jacky's case, his [P][K][G] is actually shorter in duration (by 3f) making certain combos possible due to the quicker recover (see combo video linked by akai below).


    4. But I don't play Jacky, Sarah or Kage! Should I even bother using [P][K][G] for my character?
    For the application described above (shortening total duration), there are no benefits for any character apart from the top three -- Jacky, Sarah and Kage.

    Wolf (no.4) and Eileen (no.5) have no difference in duration between their [P][K][G] and [P], so in a successful evade situation there's nothing lost nor gained here.

    The rest of the characters (no.6 and down), however, have an increase their [P][K][G] duration, so these characters are worse off for having their [P][K][G] successfully evaded, compared to just their [P].

    Also, I want to point out a couple of key risks. It was already stated that the frames "On Guard" for [P][K][G] are worse than [P] for all characters, but you might be interested in knowing how much worse? In particular I'd like to bring your attention to Eileen (no.5), Brad (no.7) and Blaze (no.8). Their [P][K][G] frames "On Guard" are -7, -8 and -8, respectively. If you're not familiar with your disadvantage ranges then a quick refresher:
    • Up to -3: Fuzzy Guard possible
    • at -4 to -5: Only Crouch Dash Fuzzy Guard possible
    • from -6 and worse: no fuzzy possible (true nitaku)
    So as you can see for Eileen, Brad and Blaze, if their [P][K][G] is guarded they put themselves in a true nitaku situation. Ouch! That's quite a drastic change from the +2 advantage they'd normally get from a standard [P], right? And if you look at all the characters you'll see they're all put in quite heavy disadvantage too, just not as bad. Does this then mean that you should never use [P][K][G]? Absolutely not! Just because the numbers say one thing, the reality is that a [P][K][G] is a powerful visual mixup, and many people tend to freeze up when seeing it. So unless your opponent knows you're going for a [P][K][G], or they're just lucky, then chances are that you may still continue with your offensive pressure.

    However, and this is probably the most important bit, all characters are disadvantaged after [P][K][G] "On Guard", so don't be surprised at getting Counter Hit by your opponent's Low Punch, or worse, as a response!


    5. Why aren't all the characters listed?
    Not all characters have a [P][K][G] cancel! ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  3. MotorCityJacky

    MotorCityJacky Well-Known Member

    Did someone say PKG?! Just happens to be my favourite move. PKG led to the origin of the Senbon in VF2. When one learned the technique it was applied to the many float combos, for me Akira combos, for crazy crazy stuff in VF2. True Senbon was an art, and it made a interesting sounding rhythmic pattern when your finger hit the buttons.

    Glad to see Jacky stay true to my play style. I look forward to the future FS battles with the VFDC crew.
     
  4. ultralewis

    ultralewis Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    InfamousGeezer
    XBL:
    Infamous Geezer
    Nice post!
     
  5. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
  6. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer"

    Thanks for the explanation myke, I was still confused after reading the translation. This is the first straight up new thing I've learned about this game in years. I think we're all getting ourselves ready for the FS train to come through and it's nice to see our activity increasing as the date gets closer.
     
  7. Dennis0201

    Dennis0201 Well-Known Member



    This setup is pretty good. One strong option after regular PK hit and the rest of combo is about half of life.
     
  8. Seidon

    Seidon Well-Known Member Content Mgr El Blaze

    Flash sword punch.
     
  9. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    Nice posts akai and Myke, I noticed the talk about it in the FS movies thread but didn't understand what you guys were discussing.

    Thanks for the info information here.
     
  10. Hazzerone

    Hazzerone Well-Known Member

    With some characters being up to -8 with [P][K][G] on block couldn't this potentially be used to their advantage if the opponent is aware of the frames?

    An example would be with Akira. His [P][K][G] on block is -5 whereas his [P] on block (just like every other characters') is +2. This means that if the Akira player is more often than not executing [P][K][G] instead of just [P] the opponent could opt to utilise this +5 advantage and go for something such as 14f mid, throw or delayed attack in expectancy of an ETEG.

    The Akira player could then simply [P] on block and be at +2 advantage and when the mid/throw/delayed attack arrives from the opponent it can be met with an SDE netting a CH.

    This is ofcourse a theoretical idea as it is very difficult to utilise the advantage of someone using [P][K][G] on block against you as (for me atleast) the move recovers before my brain can even properly process what is happening.

    This is just a potential [P][K][G] mixup I've never thought of using before... for me I always used [P][K][G] to act as a delay move to catch someone's fuzzy guard then throw or guard break them while looking top tier!
     
  11. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    xX_SETTRA_Xx
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    xX SETTRA Xx
    Theres always new stuff to discover, nice to see that the VF-Techtalk is slowly running up.
    Thanks for the post akai&Myke, especially for the extra explanation.
     

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