VF5R Goh Changes

Yeah, I agree. Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif would be far too good in R if you could always get a flop combo from the second hit. I understand the move and why it's like that on MC, I was just meaning that it's kinda odd that the move is better (damage wise) if the first part misses. I can't think of another one of Goh's moves where I'd be thinking "I sure hope the first hit misses!" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif . It definitely adds another layer of complexity to the move though. I've seen some really good Goh players in R use the delay between the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif & the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif as a great fake-out tactic. That -15 on block really does limit the move's use though like you said. I wonder if they've changed that at all in Version B?

Yeah, I would think that there are a number of other moves that have different hit properties on MC mattering on which part of the move connects (I only play Goh though, so I wouldn't know /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif ).

Oh, it doesn't have to be guarded? Cool, that just makes it even better. I couldn't remember if I had ever seen it connect on a normal hit (I usually see it connect on block), so I just said "I don't know for sure." Obviously though, I should've researched the move a bit more.

Regarding the "Hit-throw" thing though: Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't really sure what to call that move since I'd never seen another one like it (So I jokingly called it a "Jean hit throw").

 

Basically what I read I see it as " goh will be more horrible than before.

 

4, 3 P+K + Low Punch cut now recovers high so you can't duck throws and highs. This is very bad news to me, i abuse that low sabaki alot. I spam that low sabaki since its faster than a crouch fuzzy and u can duck in situations where crouch fuzzy cannot.. i think up to negative 9 to 11 u can go under throws with low sabaki.. i duno if ppl mentioned this, but this alone to me is a huge downgrade, i never see gohs use this often than to sabaki low punches but it has many other uses... 0 frame throws, doesnt throw clash etc.. works wonder off of, 43 K+G, 4 3 P

 

i would rather lose the low kick sabaki and keep the going under highs even when u cant duck, neg - 7 and up. Im a lil upset cause i use that alot of times to not get thrown and i will no longer be able to df K+G, 4 3 p, etc etc into low sabaki flowchart. Also prob cus i implemented this alot in my games lately.. lol, and im like dam, i have to relearn something else now.
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i want to scare my opp of low punching and mid P and high P... in vf5r i will be scared to do a low sabaki because if i whiff, ill probably have a bad recovery time and the risk reward doesnt make sense nemore. but on a positive note, goh does seem to deal better damage, and has a lil more mixups than b4 i guess
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I think the fact that it sabakis low kicks too now is an upgrade even if it doesn't duck throws. I think Goh has better anti-nitaku options anyways (9K+G for huge damage and back-turn if it lands where 43P+K would just be a passive way of avoiding the nitaku) so this is not a "downgrade" in my mind.

The ability to sabaki low kicks and low punches with one move makes your guessing game on defense MUCH easier. You don't have to know if they're going to to 2P or do some other low poke with a kick (ie Shun's evil low kick)... If you know they're going to poke low (as I'm assuming it doesn't sabaki full circular sweeps <-- though I may be wrong cause this is all theory-fighter anyways) you can go for a sabaki.

The way the move worked in ver C, it ducked throws but it'd still get you launched if they went for launcher instead of a 2P. So as far as the move being more punishable, I don't really see that; their most damaging options (launch?) probably still would have hit you in vanilla/ver. C on a whiffed low sabaki attempt.

Plus, characters like Lei, Shun, Lion, Pai, Lau, Kage and Wolf, just off the top of my head, each have some useful low-kick pokes that a low-kick sabaki would be REALLY useful against. Especially Lau and Pai's 1KK (fucking annoying move right there!)... I think the ability to shut 1KK down would be sick. EDIT: or Lei Fei's low stagger kick? I'd love that!

 

after 6pp, on hit or pp hit or guard. is also a nice way to implement low sabaki. most ppl 2p after that. most ppl will freeze up not knowing goh is at - neg, by the time they see u have completed the low sabaki animation u got urself a nice 0 frame throw. my point is that at small disadv noone is gonna try to launch u, most ppl will either throw, try to hit u with high, or best 2p. with a small dis adv. i have neutralized all their options with low sabaki and by the time their high misses or throw misses i can either punish with a move or 0 frame throw. 4 3 p, df k+G, 6pp, pp, or usually the best for low sabaki on hit since most ppl try to do something after that. and if they try to hit u with a mid, then thats when u can apply mid sabaki. i used it more for the evasive properties and if it so happened that they 2p, they i got basar. If the low sabaki recovers high and doesnt duck under highs or throws, after u completed ur sabaki it will mean i will be punished for trying to put fear into them. regardless im open to change, and im not a type of person to complain about my character.. if i dont like something ill just use someone else, and i do try to use evryone and study their frame data to make goh better defensively. I guess im a lil choked because it was one of gohs best moves imo, and one of my favorite moves wit goh. goh has got some new damaging stuff and i would love to try his new stuff out, and if vf5r comes out i guess ill have to low sabaki with more caution and adjust just like evrone else. I just posted because noone really complained about the low sabaki downgrade and i just wanted to bring up the effects it had on goh.

 

if the low sabaki works on low sweeps then i like it better. Honestly, i think that the ways u consider it a downgrade...then perhaps it will be for u. Which sucks. But i also think it is more likely that in his new moves u may find alternatives or flow charts that are superior to what u are doing already with it's current properties.

Haha, i'm basing that off nothing other than some of those mean looking combos he throws out. Or maybe the balance is that his low sabaki allows u to do more powerful combos then in the current vf, so they needed more risk on the sabaki.

Or maybe in vf5R ver. K they fix it, and still haven't released it to consoles...

 

Um what useful lowkick pokes do Pai, Lau, Kage and Wolf have?

 

I said it right in there for Pai and Lau... It's their 1KK. If you say that move isn't good you're just out of your mind (can't tell you how many times I've hoped to low P sabaki a Lau player only to eat an MC 1KK combo... Then next time I just block and they do 2P. Now, I'll be able to kill both options with one sabaki move.)

Kage has a fairly good low K that a lot of Kage players will just poke you with --> they might do 2K into his jumping knee (that's one I see somewhat often...) plus his back turned 2K that knocks down is pretty quick and nasty too...

Wolf's 2K isn't a great move per say, but it has pretty good range for a low kick and people have used effectively against me in the past. It's pretty quick too.

I think have a low punch and low kick sabaki is going to be very cool.

I didn't even think of the most feared low poke of all though, Jeff's damn 2K+G is deadly at the end of the round. Low sabaki against that would be awesome!

 

doesn't sarah have an excellent low k that causes crumple and allows a decent combo?

Also, lei's back turned low kick is vicious, half circ though. And his 2k off of his back turned stance is a fairly good mix up in small doeses.

Also, i have to agree with gerns on wolfs low kick. I think most good wolfs use it effectively.

Personally, i feel like one of goh deficiencies is it is tougher to get that one last hit to win a round with him than many characters. Mostly because he is forced to poke at opponents. Whereas many others characters have good strings to get the job done. Also, goh's sweep is only half circular and his lows are mostly pretty slow. I think that having an all purpose low sabaki will even the playing field in 1 hit to death matches.

 

another thing i forgot to mention about low sabaki. lets say someone hits u, and they are at plus 7 to 10. most vfdc, ppl will go for a throw knowing u cant duck, and forced to abare with a P, 2p, or a move that doesnt throw clash or eteg. u can low sabaki as well and duck. U can apply it defensively and offensively as well
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Why didn't you just do a mid and kill both and ?

Unless you're meaning that Lau and Pai were at a frame advantage in the situation, but then why would they do and that much...

 

Its not good. There.

Doing Sabakis is a RISK always. Sabakis are usually (fuck you Lei) slow attacks for the purpose that they wont beat any other attacks except the moves they are designed to beat.

Instead of a low punch sabaki you should, depending on situation, be elbowing them (Goh ) and interrupting the low punch AND 1KK.

1KKs combo only on counterhit. In all other cases you just duck the second hit and punish. Its never safe to use. Ok, its annoying in online but its just what you expect it to be, noob spam attack. If you just wait until they do it, duck it and punish you net more reward than trying to do a generic sabaki blind. You almost never see good Lau/Pai players use this move.


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Kage has a fairly good low K that a lot of Kage players will just poke you with --> they might do 2K into his jumping knee (that's one I see somewhat often...) plus his back turned 2K that knocks down is pretty quick and nasty too...
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You mean elbowcounterable on block 16 frame kick that is -6 on NORMAL hit and does maybe 2 pixels of damage... Usually Kage doesnt have to stoop to trying that kick.

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I didn't even think of the most feared low poke of all though, Jeff's damn 2K+G is deadly at the end of the round. Low sabaki against that would be awesome! </div></div>
Sure, Jeffs d+K+G is annoying, but mainly due to the fact that you are afraid of his mixups. Its not particularly good attack on its own either... block it..elbow punish. Also disadvantage on normal hit. This attack becomes better than it is because you are deathly afraid of his knee.

 

Many a round has ended with that Kage low kick manji, including one of your own matches vs kidvid iirc

BTW, ok, goh recovers high after his low punch inashi but maybe the move still retains some tech-crouch properties! No need for Goh players to despair yet

 

Doesnt make it a great poke Its one thing that Goh seriously lacks though, a fast low kick. He could sure use one against Lei for example.