[VFDC CHOICE] Brief A.I. Suggestions (mostly theory)

Discussion in 'Console' started by Guest, May 1, 2002.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This contains a few suggestions for training your own A.I. Much of the following information is purely theory, as very little seems known for sure on the subject.

    Step One: Choosing a Character.
    Only choose a character that you know well. If you are new to the game, perhaps you should come back to this mode at a later date.

    Step Two: Sparring Mode.
    This mode is important. You should make sure you are prepared before entering this mode. The things that the A.I. learns here are 1) Individual Moves 2) String, Floats, and Multi-Part moves 3) Simple flowcharts and strategy.

    After showing a move or series to your AI, it will attempt to do what you showed it back to you. Let it. If it doesnt do it properly, try again. Also, the AI will not pick it up properly if it or you die during the lesson. So just do it again when the life bars refill.

    Before you come into this mode work out a list of all the moves that you do not want your ai to perform and purposefully leave them out while showing your A.I moves.
    Secondly, if you have a followup, or a flow chart that you want your A.I. to follow consistently do not just show him the moves one at a time. (for instance, if you want your Vane to follow up d+P with a ws+P then do those moves to her together, as though they were a string, instead of doing them one at a time, or at least, in addition to doing them one at a time)

    NEVER show your AI a move that floats without also going over a garaunteed float follow up. Do not show your ai stance, or weight specific followups as it will not know when to use them and when not to.

    If you want your AI to follow up certain throws or knockdown attacks with a ground hit (like Vanes df+K soccerball kick) Then go through every move that results in your opponent being in that position and tack on the kick. You may have to go through every single throw with your AI tacking on the ground hit afterwards, so it will know thats a valid followup.

    If you just teach your ai moves all by themselves, then it will attempt to use those moves by themselves aswell. So, if you want your AI to Punch, then Throw often, you cannot teach it the punch, then later in the session teach it the throw and expect him to put 1 and 1 together to make 2. You will have to Punch him, then immediately throw him, and then let the AI get up and try it on you. And if you want it to vary the throw using this example, you have to Punch it again, and insert a different throw immediately after. Or else its likely to stick with just the one that you taught him.

    Never EVER experiment with moves or flowcharts that arent sure of. And never just fool around here. Everything you do in this mode will work itself into the AI's memory and could kick out things it was learning earlier.

    After the initial Sparring, once you taught it all the basic moves and strings that you want it to do only come back to the mode for quick touch ups, or to correct oversites.

    Step 3: Replays.

    Before showing the Replay Files from the CD to your AI for real, check them out yourself. Make sure the replay file doesnt contain any moves you dont want your ai to learn. Also, make a mental note as to when the moves you really like, and want the AI to use more, appear (like d+P, which is always helpful).

    Replays do only one thing: They add or subtract points from a move, which the AI uses to determine how often it should use them. When you see a move in a replay that you want your ai to perform more, hit O. When a bad move comes up, or a move your AI performs too much, hit X.

    Your AI does not learn strategy, or flowcharting in this mode (or at least not to the extent it does in actual batte, or sparring) So just comment on the moves themselves.

    If there is a particular move you really want your AI to use alot, or more than it currently does, then make a Replay file in vs mode. Choose the same character as your AI, and perform the chosen move over and over in the rounds. Save the file then show it to your ai and keep hitting O. This will get the point across very quickly. This is how i got my Vanessa to K,K,P+G consistently after the wrist grab.

    Step 4: Actual Battle.

    Note: You should begin your AI in arcade mode until it appears to be doing well. When in arcade mode losses will not count against you. When you are happy with your AI's skills, you may then send him to Kumite.

    The control you have over your AI becomes much less clear when in an actual battle. Firstly, you will notice an object floating above your characters head. When you press O it turns red and spins, and when you hit X if turns whiter and spins. Also, now you will notice that hitting X or O in the battle when your character performs a move no longer gives the AI the same kind of pointers. More often than not your AI will just look at you for a while, and do nothing. The only time your button presses register with a Beep is when the word "PLAY" appears in the box on the lower left.

    What follows is now purely my own theories (be warned):

    When PLAY appears on the screen you are being asked whether the actions the AI has taken have been suitable, or whether a change in strategy is in order. All the moves performed within that time period will be either given a bonus, or a minus depending on that. And the string, and combinations performed within will either be done more, or slowly forgotten depending on whether O or X was pressed.

    So, if you AI starts a round by doing a giant slow move, then hits a float starter, then misses the followup to the float, And then PLAY appears on the screen you should naturally hit X. This will firstly tell him the slow move isnt very good. It will also negatively affect the float starter a little (something you can correct with replays if you still want your ai to do that move) and it will indicate that following the float starter with the move that whiffed is not a good idea.

    This part is purely theory:

    Pressing O or X during a match, at times in which PLAY isnt appearing on the screen indicates whether to be more (O) or less (X) aggressive. You must be wary of when you press these buttons however, as pressing them at a bad time will result in your AI just staring at you.

    I begin each match by tapping on O. You will notice that the icon above the AIs heads starts spinning very rapidly and turns red. I do this to indicate that i want it to start off by attacking or approaching, rather than standing still.

    During a move that will stagger, or stun etc i will tap O which (if done properly during the execution of the first move) will not cause my AI to look at the screen, and will (hopefully) tell him to keep up the aggression.

    Similarily, after a move that leaves me open (like a slow strike is thrown, and you know the opponent is preparing to block it) I will hit X to tell the AI to prepare to use its defense. I will also hit X after my AI gets thrown, or knocked around as an indication that those situations are good times to block or throw escape, with the hope that it will remember.


    Step 5: Going Back to Previous Steps

    You are eventually going to notice something you dont like about your AI's performance. If its something simple like a specific move that your AI performs too much, or not enough, then make a Replay to showcase that move, and either O or X whenever it appears, to increase or decrease the amount of points you AI associates with it.
    For something more complex, such as your AI following up a float starting with a bad move, or failing to attack a grounded opponent after a particular throw, then go into sparring. When in sparring execute either the full float (starter + ender) or the full set of commands in the case of throw to ground attack. And then let the AI do it do you. Repeat a few times as necessary, in the case of hard to perform actions, or those which you really really want the AI to remember. Keep careful watch during matchs and make sure to press O during PLAY when your ai does what you just taught him, and press X if it performs the old version your trying to unlearn.


    Step 6: Go Away!

    Thats the kind of strategy i have been using when training my AI. I am interested in people comments, critisisms and theories. Also, if you want to add anything to it, i would be glad to hear it.

    This isnt meant to be an actual FAQ at all, just a little post with a couple suggestions, and a place for people to share their own info.

    DO NOT POST YOUR AI'S STATS ON THIS THREAD.

    I dont want to be rude, but this is for strategy and theory discussion, and is not the place to tell me what rank you are.
     
  2. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Re: Brief A.I. Suggestions (mostly theory)

    This is a great summary of how to train an AI character in PS2 VF4! I pretty much came to the same conclusions re: the hypothesis you laid out in Step 4.

    One point that might be worth mentioning is that from 10th Kyu to 10th Dan, you can pretty much leave your PS2 on overnight and your AI will go up the ranks in Kumite mode relatively quickly (assuming you trained your AI properly with float combos, flowcharts, etc.). From 10th Dan to Little Supreme King and beyond, you should no longer leave the AI to its own devices; you have to watch the matches more because of the 10th Dan / LSK round robin ranking game... and thereafter because your AI character is quite susceptible to demotion in the Nobleman/Expert/Ironman/Monarch/Fist King/Devil King range if you don't watch the matches and coach your AI carefully.
     
  3. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Re: Brief A.I. Suggestions (mostly theory)

    Definitely... even a badly trained AI (like mine) will breeze through the Kyu/Dan rankings, albeit with a bad win record. At 10th Dan/Hero, you need to keep giving feedback until it gets above the round robin, but afterwards, help on individual moves is probably more useful.

    I haven't noticed any difference at all when pressing O/X when I'm not supposed to, other than turning the sphere fun colors. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  4. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Just a quick note because is it wasn't mentioned in your guide, and I don't think the manual says this either. You can find out the "point value" as you say of different moves by going into the edit file option to look at your AI character as if you were going to change its costume color or kumite items its wearing. There's an option that lets you see a complete movelist for the character and how the AI ranks each of the available attacks. The higher the number the more likely the AI will use the given attack in battle. Also of note, if you don't teach your AI an attack or throw at all in sparing, the attack in the edit file movelist will remain dim, and you will never see your AI use that move because it doesn't even knows it exists.
     
  5. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Another note: When fighting another AI, both characters will get lots and lots of hit+, guard-, etc. (once every few hits). I'm not sure why, but it seems like a good way to power-train your AI and your friend's.
     
  6. Pai

    Pai New Member

    WOW!!!
    That is the most comprehensive overview of the A.I. system I've ever seen!!! There's really not much I can add to it except "good job, ETP!!!" Oh yeah, and THANX.
     
  7. Oni-Kage

    Oni-Kage Well-Known Member

    Problem with Training

    My problem is that my AI Kage will actually learn moves from CPU Kage during battle... I only noticed this during one match... but I definately recall hearing the "Learn" sound when they were fighting and couldn't figure which move was learned.

    MY question is... how do you keep your AI from learning stuff you don't want it to learn? Or do you just have to go in and untrain stuff frequently?

    Awesome FAQ though... you should formalize it into something Mike and them can put on the main page.
     
  8. mindelixir

    mindelixir Well-Known Member

    Re: Problem with Training

    When you hear the learn sound, your AI has just learned a new move. It doesn't really hurt to have your AI know every Kage move, where you want to focus on is how and when he uses it. In the status (edit player file) menu, you can see your characters stats for each move. After he learns every move the learn sound won't come up again. But the AI's don't "learn" things like block, evade, combos, or series. To check which moves your ai has learned, check it's status in the edit player file menu (unlearned moves are in darker print). The AI's seem to learn strategy, technique, and combos from sparring and replays more so than actual battles. But fighting your own AI with the same character is good for it.
     
  9. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Re: Problem with Training

    Your AI definitely gets technq+ from everything the CPU does, even if it's horribly wrong. (For example, an Aoi AI left unchecked will never finish the multithrow because it's learned not to finish it 25 times.) This includes learning new moves. If you don't want it to do something, fire up Arcade mode, do the move over and over, save the replay, and keep hitting X to give it technq- points until it stops.

    As a sidenote, your AI gets lots and lots of hit+, guard+, etc. messages from fighting another AI, even if they're different characters. This is an easy way to powertrain your AI in, say, guarding: have it fight a low-level Dan AI repeatedly. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  10. Oni-Kage

    Oni-Kage Well-Known Member

    AI Kage

    Here's another question... does anyone know how to train Kage to use moves that put him into Jumonji like F+P(hold), B+P(hold), etc?

    When I try to get him to learn that way of getting into Jumonji, he does the elbow, goes to neutral, then does d+P+K+G the slow way.

    Thanks.
     
  11. paddy31

    paddy31 New Member

    your post seems very good and i allso thought that the O X in kumite when the play isnt lit made it do something.My problem is how do AI get up the ranks after they get to 1st dan my guy has had 20 fights since becoming 1st dan and has a sign in the top left corner that says champion,but has not had a single rank fight he wins about 75,85% of fights how can i get him to get a better rank any help thnx.

    PADDY
     
  12. lau_fists

    lau_fists Well-Known Member

    Let me ask this: Is it possible to train the AI specifically against certain characters' moves? My Shun AI has gotten to 7th Dan, but is stymied by a wicked 7th Dan Aoi, and mostly due to the fact that once the CPU Aoi gets my boy into a 5th round, she suddenly becomes the reversal, low-throw machine. I mean, it's f'ing rediculous, EVERY blow is reversed, and every crouch-dash is punished with the low throw. Unfortunately, my Shun just keeps on throwing out those mids against her; I'm pretty sure there isn't a way to stop the mid-attacks, since the AI is simply doing its move and doesn't understand Aoi can reverse them...which is the crux of the problem...

    OR, will my boy simply learn better, in order to advance? It SEEMS like the AI learned NOT to hit Vanessa or Jacky with a punch when they're standing still, as the blow is auto-parried, as it used to do that constantly...

    I rue the day I taught my Shun to do the /versus/images/commands/d.gif /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif, since 98% of the time it initiates that move it gets murdered for it. Something to stop in replays, definitely.
     
  13. death_raven

    death_raven Well-Known Member

    in my experience with A.I. training, training them against specific character is impossible, they improve through fights, and off course be careful on what moves you say is good ( o button for good and x button for bad) if you press circle to state wether what your A.I. did is good the you'll notice he'll keep on doing the move or combo all through out the round, be careful of this. good luck in training your A.I.
     
  14. lau_fists

    lau_fists Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Yeah, I've definitely learned to keep hands-off during fights, unless i'm trying to stop the AI doing a particular awful thing over and over. Often though, if your timing is wrong, you end up confusing the AI at a crucial moment.

    Somewhere someone said that the AI falls apart at higher levels, and I've seen my Shun really struggle against Vanquishers, Conquerers. Will it adapt? Right now it's getting worked over. At least I can unteach it some bad habits...
     
  15. death_raven

    death_raven Well-Known Member

    i got 2 A.I. characters one Jacky and the other is Kage,both are conqeurors, at first they seem to fall short of skill agaisnt the higher players but they grow out of it, one thin i've noticed though, the best way to solve the problem is to save the replay whenever the A.I. looses in kumite to show him his mistakes, that should work.
     
  16. lau_fists

    lau_fists Well-Known Member

    A Kage...very cool...I'd think he'd be real difficult to work with, considering the rolling, sliding and Jumonjuing he has to do to win (I think).
     
  17. death_raven

    death_raven Well-Known Member

    yup training kage was tough, and took tons of time and patience, he still has a bit of retardedness but he tries, the hardest thing i had to teach him was TFT combos and follow ups.
     
  18. lau_fists

    lau_fists Well-Known Member

    I've reached a bad spot with my Shun AI: Ghostface made it to Hero and, of course, has been demoted each time because he cannot defeat 10 10th Dans in a row...worst of all, he keeps getting demoted back to 9th Dan because of the inconsistency.

    I've used replays to indicate a wish for my boy to use certain techniques MORE, like /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and the Chouwan, and particularly the evade attack, and to NOT do /versus/images/commands/u.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif to back-turn, ect, and I mean I go over it plenty in replay but there seems to be no difference in my boy's usage. Also, the AI's guarding is definitely breaking down at the higher levels, all that excellent guarding from the Dans is getting ripped by the 10-Dan and ups. All this to say that my Shun is getting WORSE, or perhaps it's just my view. What's the solution here? It vexes me.

    I should add that whatever "help" I try to give the AI when it's fighting 10-Dans doesn't seem to do anything, except distract the AI and get it hit. If you tell it not to do a technique, it seems to come back to it fairly quickly, and the AI freezes under NO NO NO scrutiny. I'm a little obsessed here.
     
  19. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I can't really help you except to pass on some bad news: that even really well trained AI's seem to fade out at 10th dan or so. Specific characters (lei fei I think?) can do some very damaging, TR punishing, ream combos/patterns ... and these help characters like that get past 10th dan. But getting shun, or pai, or aoi there... I dunno. Good luck.
     
  20. lau_fists

    lau_fists Well-Known Member

    Hmm. That's what I was worried about. AI Shun can't really understand WHY it's doing what it's doing, so when I tell it to do the drink command, to build up the old gonad strength, the AI just thinks I'm talking about any other offensive move and, since it doesn't cause damage to the opp., doesn't do the drinking. I think.

    The AI is already better at being Shun than I am, which isn't saying much, but I was speculating that without the ability to outwit the opp., as humans must when using Shun, the AI tries to use Shun's muscle to win...and ver C Shun just doesn't have the horses. Kind of demoralizing. If I knew Shun inside and out, I'd have taught it only what I felt was most useful, rather than the entire movelist; that may be the fatal flaw, as I should have just concentrated the Shun to the most effective series and combos; again though, Shun is all about drinking, ducking, and stance-changing, and I don't think the AI understands the purpose of these functions, or the advantage of using the lying-down attacks or the handstand.

    It was a nice experiment though.
     

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