Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Guest, Dec 10, 2000.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Has anyone heard new info on VFX?
    I know i can't wait. Hopefully they will include endings and special intros or cinemas between related fighters ex. Pai and Lau, Akira and Aoi. They should also have 3 to 4 costumes, change their winning speeches, and have a tag-team mode. No weapons, no blood. more fighters two are fine, more is better. more chain throws for jeff, wolf and aoi. No more Dural as a final boss. Maybe a secret hidden fighter.
    What do you guys think?
    I heard that VFX will have several machines hooked up and you'll fight multiple fighters
  2. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    virtua fighter isn't and never has been about tons of costumes and 'special' intros. why are these important to you?
    i would like to see amazing new characters though (duh!)
  3. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    tag team mode? LOL

    so you're saying lets copy what every fighting
    game is doing nowadays (ttt, doa2, sfex3).
    that feauture would be such a rip off, its being
    done too many times. for special intros go play
    KOF94-2k, for costumes go play DOA1-2, for
    'chain' throws go play tekken (KING). for hidden
    bosses go play SF series. see my point, its been
    done! oh and leave dural alone! :)

    i personally want to see more stuff like
    reversing reversals (see pai vs pai,dural), and
    more stuff like wolf's p,p,f+p,d/b+pkg. i bet $5
    that this is going to be included.

    and please dont start to make this thread another
    vfx wish list, there's already one and posting
    more would be repeating the same thing. :)

    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
  4. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    What is wrong with tag-team? That idea was stolen from wwf wrestling...what is the harm in including it?
  5. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Ugghh, TagTeam and VF doesn't mix to me... call me a biggot if you want, but I would hate it... But that's me... However, who knows...

    Compromises: enter a complex code required of both players each and every time you wanted to do it. Or, ripoff Namco's time-release feature (which I also hate) and set it to appear as a feature in 2005.

    Sorry, I just have to admit that I despise Tag-Team. Though the hypocrite in me actually doesn't mind tags in Tekken Tag that much, but I still prefer T3 at times... And as far as DoA2 goes, which I have been playing lately and enjoying, I prefer normal than tag... Tag gives a lot to the game, but it takes away SO MUCH more imo...

  6. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Alright, here's my stuck-up attitude towards VF.

    The series is a masterpiece, a work of art.

    As a work of art, everything is presented to you right there in your face. However, that doesn't mean you understand everything about it right there and then... Within each look, each experience, each ponder, each reflection upon it you dig deeper and deeper into the work and its meaning. You might see original, inspirational, completeness, or even something done before--but here it's done with class... However, it is all in front of you...

    It's not a crackerjack box where you hope to find the next pointless toy. You don't rip the canvass to see if the winning piece is on the back. And you usually don't see the "flavor of the month" cliche tacked onto it for mass appeal of today.

    Usually the work does not expand beyond its own scope to compromise its build. As far as VF goes imo, the design is the masterpiece and such bonus features, comic book characters, and overwork in areas outside the scope of its design is like decorating it excessively... There's a level you want to make the package have an impact... But there's another level where you don't want it to become cheese, a cracker jack box, Crazy Sam's bargain bin deal, or just another trendy ripoff or formulaic cliche'd teenie-bopper song.

    I could go on, but I don't care to now on this point. I'm not saying those other features that some of you like are awful, but I don't think they belong in VF and they would tarnish the work in reflection to its nature. They would compromise a design that the devoted can only understand and appreciate. A work of art. I'm sure those other features can be turned into works of art, but in their own scopes and without the name Virtua Fighter to ruin both the features and the series...

    -Chanchai (exposing his VF nazi attitude for the moment)
  7. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    which new styles?

    i've been wondering about possible new-character ideas for vf-x recently. what have we already got (appearance-wise): 2 throw-based muscle heads, one massive 'the physics of the game even alter just for him' sumo wrestler, a ninja, a star fighter, an angry chinese chef, his relatively weak but lightning fast daughter, a cool indy car driver, an old man, a small low fighter, and two more fast girls, and dural.
    so we've got the young, the old, the in betweens, the meat-heads and the girls. the only type of gender/age mix they haven't thought of is an old(er) woman. they also haven't followed the (now cliched) kick-boxer/muay thai specialist or 'russian/east-european-style' fighter.i can't see HOW sega are gonna come up with new fighters that are original and yet somehow definitive, like how shun, lion, aoi and taka were/are. has anyone out there got any truly 'original' character ideas? been done: taekwondo (hwoarang - tekken), capoeira (eddy - tekken), russian style fighting (whatever that is) (various, including leon from doa2), commando style martial arts (bayman), muay thai (zack), karate (ein), buddhist monk (fighting wu-shu),school girl (chun-li, ling from tekken),a street fighter (done to death).
    anyway, just a thought/concern. let's hope am2 are more imaginative than me, as my mind is blank as far as original, dynamic character/fighting style are concerned.
    thoughts, any thoughts, would be very welcome. what do vf-ers (er, that's you!) want to see in the NEW characters in vf-x? er, this is assuming there will even be new characters introduced(!).
  8. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    hehe, there are a lot of options... But personally, I'd like a straightforward style like Boxing and Muay Thai.

    Anyways, there are styles like Kali (Yes, there's a hand to hand aspect of it, it's not just knives and sticks, unique method of parrying, focuses on disabling the opponent's hands, sometimes feet; Filipino), Pencat Silat (Josh, let me know if I spelled that right, I have a vague memory of the name; Indonesian), Savat (France, spinoff of kickboxing, Muay Thai I've heard), various chinese martial arts, Jujitsu (too many options, Japanese, Judo, Small-Circle, Brazilian, Hawaiian, etc..), Hapkido (a Korean art I would actually like to see in VF, suits almost too well with VF), African martial arts, various forms of Karate, etc... There are many, many options.

    For me, the style doesn't have to be something not done before. If people argue about a game's originality in choice of represented styles, it's out of stupidity and ignorance. Videogames don't invent the martial arts if they emulate them (the word emulate is in that sentance after all).

  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    True, the old(er) woman idea hasn't been used yet.

    We haven't seen many fighters in all fighting games from countries away from Japan and US etc. perhaps some place in Africa? South America? Hopefully Singapore?

    And yes, it is possible to link characters from VF to their parallel in SF etc.

    And though tons of costumes and 'special' intros may make VF a copycat in some sense, I believe that the characters could do with 3 costumes. Or perhaps codes that can let you use costumes from eariler VF versions, e.g. Pai VF2 Costume 2. That's what DOA2 Hardcore for PS2 did for their version, but point aside...

    Those pre match face offs...

    Tina: Here I come!
    Kasumi: You cannot stand in my way!


    Ayane: Sugoi no ne! You came all the way here.
    Helena: Anata...
    Ayane: Sigh... who knows?
    Helena: You... you killed my Mother!

    Pre match face offs, not stories.
    A note... the reason why Tina tells Zack to look at his face in the mirror first is an innuendo that DOA2's engines are good enough to do reflection.

    Straying away from the point. I believe that this face offs are a must do.

    And things that can be improved on...

    shadows on walls
    falling off the ring / out the ring / wall / fence reaction
    shadows on people
    reflection (DOA2 used a pretty cheapo method on Zack's 3rd costume, the alien one... it doesn't reflect, it's just a moving texture... but it's smart... Dural needs it)

    OH NO! I'm turning this into a wish list!

    Last but not least... Dural should be kept as boss... perhaps with Pai's Mum / Lau's wife inside :)

    Add J6 for drama and a whopping finish to the series.

    And... probably a stage in space? Dural's underwater VF2 stage was great... now it's time for another revolution... different degrees of gravity pull - anti-gravity... all possible in some spaceship orbiting earth.
  10. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    chanchai: maube you are right about a 'done before' style not being such a bad thing. slightly contradicting what i said previously, i actually would love sega to use a 'pre-used' style (such as karate, taekwondo) and show namco and tecmo (and capcom while we're at it) just who is the top dog when it comes to a video game representation of a chosen field/style. african fighter eh? maybe something along the lines of monkey style kung-fu. now that would be a hoot to watch: monkey style vs taka (although i suppose lion's style is small and in some ways similar to that).
    judo would be truly unique, bith in the fighting game genre and in the virtua fighter 'cast list'. boxing would be interesting too i guess, although i suppose you could say any style could be interesting: so long as they implement it right.
  11. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    I think if VF is going to follow the pattern it did for the previous 2 installments, we can assume that there will be 2 new characters who while they contrast, are part of a theme based on a country or region.

    VF2: theme is China. style is "unusual" kung fu. a very young and a very old man (vf's youngest and oldest). Both are essentially weak in power, but are tricky. both have special movement abilities.

    VF3: theme is Japan. style is japanese martial arts. A very big, heavy man and a very light, small girl (again, vf's lightest and heaviest). sumo focuses on power. Aiki-Jujutsu on redirecting opponent's power.

    I'm curious to see if they try to repeat this dynamic formula.

    If it were up to me, I'd look at what the game already has enough of.

    Kung Fu: 5 characters (7 if you consider Jeet Kune Do kung fu, which I do)

    Asian Fighters: 7

    Striking-based martial arts: while you could argue that all the characters in VF are basically strikers AND have strong throws; sumo, wrestling, aiki-jujutsu and pancratium are all more or less based in grappling (in real like at least).

    So basically we've got a game more or less dominated by characters and styles from china and japan who focus on striking. which is the case with most fighting games, and for obvious reasons.

    I'd say the game needs some more variety.

    Now, while VF is basically a testament to the classical martial arts, I feel that the modern world of martial arts shouldn't be ignored any longer. I'm not suggesting hyper-realism, but a couple of characters who are a tribute to today's greatest fighters as seen in events like pride, vale tudo and the UFC. Most of these fighters cross train in striking and grappling, like most vf characters.

    So, If I were to choose a theme, I'd probably go with Latin American Grappling. Sounds strange, but check it out. Obviously VF is lacking in grapplers and latin americans, but central and south america is also a hotbed of great martial artists at the moment.

    1. Cuban Judoka: the cubans do really great in Judo, both men and women, and have recreated the sport with their own style. The cubans came second only to Japan in last years world championships in overall medals.

    I'm a little biased here being a judo player myself, but I think there are many interesting aspects to making a judo character. first off, no striking. the punch button is used for gripping and pushing/pulling the opponent while the kick button is used for tripping and sweeping. so that a command like P,P,B,B+K could be grip the lapel, grip the opposite arm, unbalance to the rear, then sweep the knee. once you're down, the judoka has the option to continue with groundwork instead of traditional down attacks. players could struggle out of or reverse chokes, armbars etc. I think this could really open up a lot of cool possibilties for new types of gameplay, not just new moves to learn how to avoid/counter/guard. Players would have to learn how to fight the grapplers (including the existing ones)in a specific way, instead of just escaping throws like they do with every other character.

    2. Brazilian Vale Tudo: If you don't know what vale tudo is, it basically means no rules or all's fair. This style focuses heavily on grappling and striking techniques based in boxing/kickboxing. So you've got a knockout artist who can groundfight with the best of them (marco huas, a vale tudo master, is the only person to ever not loose to hickson gracie, widely considered the world's best fighter, they fought to a draw). This could also cover the boxing/kickboxing/muay thai base that many people want to see well. It could also cover grappling areas judo misses, like leg locks. Imagine taking off 1/3+ of the lifebar with a well timed right hook, then pouncing on the downed oppt. to choke them out.

    I think it's time grappling came into it's own in the series, and that a proper groundfighting/submission system was created. It's too unbalanced now to me in favor of striking arts. If even a moderately competent grappler can get a hold of a striker with little or no experience on the ground, it's over. I'm not suggesting a UFC game style "tap out" system, or that any character should be totally incompent if taken down, but rather that this side of martial arts be represented as it should be. There is just as much art in these forms of fighting.

    Ugh... 4:30 AM. I'd like to write more, but I'm already approaching Chanchai size here. One more thing, I'd like more costumes and tag battle ;).

  12. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    some very interesting points raised here; most sound good to me for two reasons: they are fairly original, and for once reasonably plausable. the idea of shifting the punch button's purpose to 'grab' sounds good in theory, and could be introduced (something similar i mean). i like the idea of the leg trips, and the chain ground throws (if that's what you meant), but i wouldn't like to see ura compromised too much. i don't want vf-x to turn into a wwf game! in vf3 we've got a really big guy, and a really low-crouching fighter (taka and lion), but maybe am2 could introduce an exceptionally tall fighter (maybe along the lines of the already mentioned thai boxing). i wouldn't want to see too much grappling though, as too much change to a virtua fighter game could upset the already excellent formula of muscle vs kung-fu variants.
    too many throws/grapples given to a character would also upset throw-reversals, making them nigh on impossible to predict correctly which direction the aggressor will use to finish the command input. another possibility is a character who uses a hybrid style (not like aoi: i mean changing stances and stuff - i think chanchai brought this up a while ago).
    tag battle? ttttt...not that again. costumes? unimportant to me really, though the idea mentioned about bringing, say, 1 per character's back from the previous vfs might be OK (though fairly unlikely).
    i think vf-x will be fairly revolutionary though. maybe not by using tag teams, but something fairly radical will be introduced for the very first time to the genre (IMO).
    if new characters are brought in, they could have a new set of relatives (ala the chans and the bryants), with seemingly similar, yet quite different styles.
  13. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    If the style is based on Singapore fighting style...
    the guy will be an AH BENG, the girl will be AH LIAN
    Must carry parang,....have a comb stuck in the back pocket...
    The Lian must be badly dressed, n ULTRA skinny! :)

  14. nascarbryant

    nascarbryant Well-Known Member

    The waiting gets longer and longer ....and Mr. Kataoka (on ign.com)said that maybe there wont be any footage in FV2........fuck off........how long....these marketing strategies make me mad......(Yu said that he would like to talk about it..).............at least one picture......

    brumm,brumm,brumm,...show them Akira ..show them....(thanks Chanchai)

  15. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    could you at least try to be somewhat coherent?

    this one almost puts some of shadowdean's drunk posts to shame.

  16. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    Just to clarify quickly:

    the way I imagine designing a judo player, he would have throws in the normal ammount (on par with jeff, wolf or taka in ammount) and then have the kinds of moves I mentioned earlier, which would be guarded, not escaped. It would be a kind of "kusushi", or unbalancing (like akira's break guards). When akira breaks the oppt's guard some attacks, while not espescially powerful, are guaranteed (like the double palm); while others are a "high risk/skill-high reward" situation. The same balance could be applied to gripping then unbalancing the oppt. If you get gripped, then unbalanced or pulled in to the rear, you could still guard the sweep or other technique, at which time the judoka looses his grip and is vunerable. In the same situation, the judo player after gripping would have a couple options after unbalancing:

    p,p,b,b+k: hiza guruma (knee wheel)
    p,p,b,b/d+k: tani otoshi (valley drop)
    p,p,b,b+p+g: tai otoshi (body drop)

    for the oppt the situtation isn't that different from guarding after jacky's p,p: you can get hit high, low, mid, or thrown, you have to guess.

    on the ground throw side, I don't mean chain throws like tekken or doa. I'd like to see something like wolf's catch or taka's yotsumi, but on the ground. when the player is down, let's say you're at his side. d+P+G gets you into a side mount (your chest is to the oppt's at a 90 deg. angle, one arm around his shoulder, the other between his legs). now at this point, all characters could escape (d+P+G like a normal throw escape, you push the judoka off and stand up), while grapple heavy characters could reverse (U+P+G gets you to grab the incoming judo player, then flip him over into your own mount or side mount). Once the judoka has a side mount, he has a couple options: d+P+G again gets him to change to the full mount, f+P+G gets an ude garami(entangled arm, or key lock) u+P+G gets a kesa gatame (scarf hold, a kind of pin that if done well can actually make people tap out). Here the Vale Tudo player could get into the full mount, then have the option to punch as well (jeffry and wolf too).

    To escape these moves, you can enter the corresponding command at the right time, like escaping taka's yotsumi, or if you get caught with them, you can struggle out or face major damage.

    In most fighting games, ground throws are something of an afterthought. they're ususally somewhat difficult to land, and while they show the attacker breaking bones (Aoi) and snapping necks (like Leon/Bayman), they do about half the damage of the most basic P+G throw. Why? I think this is because they're considered down attacks. In reality, these moves are what decide matches. Again, I don't think VF should fully emulate reality, but it shouldn't neglect it either.

    When trying to convince one of the guys in my judo class to play VF, I showed him how kage actually uses quite a bit of judo. When I showed him Kage's side throw, a flying arm bar, he was dissapointed that once kage had the arm on the ground, he let go, when the whole point is to get them to submit once on the ground. If you've played Giant Gram, you know that in that game he doesn't let go, and you have to struggle out.

    To struggle out of an armbar (since you missed the throw escape) the command could be like F+P,B+P,F+P,B+P... or F+P,D+K,F+P,D+K... to srtuggle with your arms and legs; a set number of inputs would result in escape. Small bits of damage could be taken until escape, and if there was no escape in say, 3 seconds, you'd loose a big chunk of life (say 60 pts.), representing the bone break or choke. Other techniques would equal instant damage; risk equals reward, if you manage to side mount, change to the mount, then land the throw, you should get bigger damage. Again, different characters could have different options, you could reverse into your own move with a grappler (tekken already has this feature, with nina, king and paul being able to reverse arm and leg bars for damage).

    As it is now, most characters can take off big chunks of life with standing throws that come out instantly. I want characters to be able to this on the ground. Why not? It's not like you won't see it coming, and have a chance to escape. And I don't think you run the risk of it becoming a wrestling game, which play really slow overall (giant gram isn't slow, but if kage arm bars you, you have to struggle to the edge of the ring, this can take up to about 10 seconds, there should be the afforementioned time limit to keep things brisk). I think if done right, it could create a really cool kind of tension between different styles. Imagine how good it'd feel to escape a series of ground throw attempts to get back up and nail a big air combo, or a throw of your own. I think it would make us really appreciate and accent the ways in which we already beat oppt's.

    On the character design side, here's what I came up with. The Cuban Judoka is smallish (about shun's size), and a little portly, with a dark afro-cuban skin tone (which gives us another person of african origin, and contrasts nicely with the pure white or light blue judogi). His small, soft shape accents the softness of judo. His age is in his early 40s. His demeanor is warm, but quiet and modest.

    The Vale Tudo fighter should be a tall, kickbox-body type brazillian woman, who is not a beuaty queen but actually intimidating. As tall as wolf and jeffry, with toned, muscular arms and legs. She is a full contact fighter who lives for fighting. She trains hard every day, and is stern and serious about what she does. She never smiles and hates to loose. Her 2P color has a mouthpeice.

    In one of the vf3 mooks some guys from AM2 said that they made a tall, really cool looking kickboxer when designing vf3, but scraped it because it looked too much like a character from another game (i'm guessing sagat). I can't read too much japanese, but a friend read it to me, so I know it's there somewhere. they also made a gracie jujutsu type, but didn't use it because it had no flashy moves, so they made Aoi.

    On the tag battle side, i'd like it to be an extra, not the main game. The original twist could be that it's got a three on three mode, and you can choose who to tag to ( MVC2 already has this, but no 3d game). I don't think vf should copy other series, but to me it's just more game play to enjoy, so why not have it to compliment the 1 on 1 mode and team battle modes? If well done, it wouldn't compromise the integrity of the series.

    On costumes, we should be able to choose all the different ones from the history of the series, whether unlockable or not. again, it could only give us more fun. An added bonus could be to unlock the actual old character models and move sets in a mega-mix stlye mode. Looks like VF2 wolf, plays like VFX. I'd like to be able to use the old stages, too as an extra. That's really bring back the memories.

    Finally, I'd like to be able to create my own costume from a set of different peices, which are unlocked by victories, straight wins, time attack, ranking mode etc. The clothes can change color with an RGB scale (tobal 2 had this).
    This would be really cool. Imagine trying to get the special hat for shun which only appears after 100 straight vs wins on an arcade machine!

    I'm well aware that the extras in VF are revealed through long hours of play and practice, and that it's great is it is. But I know many people who would play the game if it had more it the way of extras, people who really play a lot of fighting games, and to be honest, I'm tired of being the only person in a 100 square mile radius who cares about this game. So if a little more special sauce brings more people to the table, BRING IT ON! It doesn't degrade the quality of the game, and Yu would never do anything lame anyway. Besides, many things like endings and extra costumes weren't standard when VF3 was made back in 1997, so I think we'll be seeing a little more of that stuff this time around.

    sorry for the length

    All this is just babble, but maybe somebody will use these ideas someday.
  17. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Re: grapple system

    It's funny that you mention the grapple system, but tobal2 had it all. Each throw began with a grapple from which you could either put your opponent off balance (drag them around or take them down to the ground), strike high or low, or throw, and the opponent could either resist/struggle, block, or escape the throw. Throw escapes could also lead to reverse grapple situations. I used to have the craziest fun with friends just trying to win a grapple game, the initiative constantly switching back and forth.

    If there's an area in VF3 that I'd like to see evolve, it would probably be the throw system. Not that I see anything wrong with it now, but I think it could grow. Just off the top of my head, maybe something could be done with throw escapes. I'm thinking of characters like poor Shun who can't get a break because of DTEing opponents. Maybe in cases where you anticipate a throw escape you can use it to your advantage. But I guess you can already by simply attacking. Blah, it's too rough around the edges, and I'm glad I don't work for Sega. Anyway....

    I don't know how well a grapple system that spotlite described (i.e. like tobal2's) would be received, but I'm sure Sega will think of something. The throw system has consistently evolved between VF versions, so I wouldn't be suprised to see it evolve again.

    p.s. wolf's f+P+G catch throw should have zero exe time :)

    m y k e
    how ya gonna win when ya ain't right within?
  18. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    Again, for character recomendations, you all are gunna hate it - but I'd like to see a few more Korean arts represented - a taekwondo fighter - or even better a Taekwon fighter {the art taekwondo is based on}. I think, for the current fighters such as shun and lion, I would love to see stances incorperated even more...from each stance you get differen't options for defense and attack.
  19. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    i'm neither up to date nor fully informed on all of the social/political bad blood in asia, but somehow i think it's unlikely we'll see a korean style, much less a korean character, in any coming installments of vf.

    even the "asian" setting on arcade VF3, where the japanese taunts are muted out, was put in specifically for the korean arcade market

    i'd love to hear thoughts on this, as i am just the clueless white man here..
  20. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    Re: which new styles?

    Living in LA, there is a big korean pop. here; and I know a few fighting game players who don't play vf for thr reason that there are no korean fighters.

    I don't know much about politics (aside from the obvious), but all namco's games and snk as well have good korean rep., and have for a while. Hwoarang's story line basically revolves around his rivalry with jin- check out his ending for the PS2 TTT. This seems to all be in good humor, and the koreans I know like it (although they all play jin!).

    I think koreans would be cool in VF.

    The Tobal 2 grapple system was really cool. Its's hard to describe what I have in my mind; but it's definately similar, I think if it could be just a little quicker. And I agree that wolf's catch could be quicker, it's a cool idea that was made weak against good players (even though you can throw again if they escape).

    I also agree that the kung fu guys should have stances; a lot of people have been wanting this. Lau should do tiger, dragon etc. and Pai already does the crane in her big jump attack and win pose, so why not expand her as well. It would eliminate the need for a whole new character, and further compliment the Chan family relationship.

    I agree again that throw escapes should lead to new throw or attack opportunities for both the attacker and defender, and should be different for each fighter. I think this kind of action is the future of fighting games, and it's just a matter of time.


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