virtua care bear

Llanfair, your statement
"Come on, it's [PS2] a pretty powerful system - a lot more power than Naomi2 that's for sure."
is INCREDIBLY wrong. it really is EXTREMELY wrong, not even slightly, and its insane to even try to discuss it at this point. you apparantly have a SUB-HUMAN level of understanding of ps2 vs n2

you should search around for articles on both, and read interviews of programmers who have used either. particularly ps2. theres a good technical article on arstechnica.com on ps2, ive forgotten where the ones for naomi2 are.

there is a lot to it but just to be quick, off the top of my head
ps2 has an incredibly low amount of ram 4mb, (and it is also shared framebuffer) and it doesnt even have hardware compression, so you can compress textures. even dc has double.

naomi12 has 32 main mem
32mb graphic mem
and 32mb just for geometry

textures are very important, the textures make it look realistic, adding polys just makes it look rounder edges and theres diminishing returns.
naomi2 would kick the ass of ps2 on polys anyway, its about 10 mill sustained. ps2 has probably done/will do when mgs2 and others come out around 3mill in an actual game.
n2 also is based on pvr2 so it has defered rendering which is why shenmue can have those amazing scenes with lots of polys. on a ps2 if you have a building, ps2 has to render everything behind the wall. dc/n1/n2 doesnt. so you get the most 'value' out of it. imagine fighting in a real LARGE city or somesuch, n2 wont have to render past the buildings, so the city could be complex and there could be things behind the imediate building.
n2 also has 2 cpus, its complicated. ps2 does have 2 vector units but its lame and you should read up on that, dont wanna explain it. noone has made that great use out of it and i dont think tis worth bothering. noone has been able to stream and flush new textures PER FRAME which is what would make ps2 worthwhile.

the only reason mgs2 seems good is because they used an optimized palette and practically the whole game is in different shades of gray and black.

vfx was orig designed for n2 and can you imagine the massive redesign it must go through. you should be able to peice together that it will be a lot

its a big letdown to me that its on ps2 at all. its just a waste of time. id rather it on xbox or gc. not because i hate sony but just because i want it to be good. how many vf games will there ever be? what if suzuki retires? why waste one like this. it will be good, but it can be a lot better just being on another system

i agree with everything else though, but i dont know why you and other people are so concerned because you think I and others are concerned. im not losing sleep over it, but i also dont mind saying what i think, even if its going to be bad news.

i also dont understand why people take the time out of their lives to post to a board and say 'well... im going to wait and see... whatever happens happense'
i dont want to get off on a rant here but
THATS WHAT EVERY SENSIBLE PERSON ALREADY DOES, OFCOURSE.
you dont deserve an medal for that
and i dont see why would care that we know that you do it
but some of us get board and feel like thinking about stuff.
like having a little fun with our brain try to hypothesize/make predictions, think about what you think will happen.
i could barge into any discussion involving the future and say that.

WHO CARES THAT YOU WILL WAIT AND SEE.










NOOONE


I WILL BUY A DEAD BIRD, TELL IT TO WAIT AND SEE FOR THE NEW VF4, GLUE IT TO MY SHOULDER AND WALK AROUND, if you want to have a wait and see IRON MAN COMPETITION.

 

Just one quick comment, and my last for the day.

I had this thought about the Dreamcast and a possible VF4 home port appearing on the platform (hah!!) from before the "change".

Here's the thing: when we play VF, what exactly do we see as VF? To me, playing VF is about the characters, not the stages. In other words, I would accept a VF4 "home port" on the Dreamcast even if the stages were completely different (i.e. fewer polygons) as long as the characters have enough resemblance and the gameplay remains completely intact.

Naomi2 is probably more powerful than the PS2, but there is no reason why we can't get an adequate translation on the PS2. As long as all the characters are there and the moves are there, I don't mind if the stages get completely revamped to accomodate for inferior hardware.

ice-9<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 2/2/01 00:31 AM.</FONT></P>

 

well, the main factor in the diff will be the texture quality. going from 32/32 mb to 4mb is a lot.

the ps2 vf4 will have lower quality textures than the dreamcast vf3 (it has HALF the ram.) so it will be a big step down.

yeah, yeah, suzuki is good and we lie in a fetal position at is feet, naked, but ps2 still has a pathetic amount of ram and i hate its hardware design for many reasons

as for the thing i was talking about with defered rendering, i just meant (shoulda been clearer) is IF they made some big change to vf4 where levels were much more complex it is going to be hard. like the possibility of making huge levels where you can actually move around and it isnt just secific platform type thing with ring outs and a wall. they havent said they would do this ofcourse, but hopefully this is one aspect of what they will use when they said they learned things from shenmue (having big levels.) vf to me has always had great inovations. ever since the first 1 on 1 fighters, it has always been 1 on 1 on a sealed off place. id like to see em change to something where it feels like youre fighting in a real REAL location.

anyway apparantly they are going to do Vf4 for ps2 from the ground up to take advantage of it, so theyd have to throw out ideas involving high texture quality and really large complex levels, and online play, and possibly multiplayer (how many controller ports are there in ps2? i dont know.) os this is a definate change and they are limiting themselves.
but whatever

 

tell me - have you yourself programmed with a PS2? You sound more knowledgeable about how shitty the PS2 is than Sony's engineers.

I mean, they *must* be idiots for giving it only 4M RAM!! WTF were they thinking. And also, RAM is the ONLY way to produce textures - the relationship is linear (and obvious) More RAM = Better graphics, every single time. So, then, you know what I'm gonna do? Build a machine with a billion megs of RAM. Oooh baby, just you wait - the textures will be so good that your screen will actually change shape!

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

i havent programmed for the ps2 or any other console.

if you want to disagree with me, thats fine.

i have read a lot about the ps2 though.

so instead of personal questions about me, why dont you look it up and find out the answer, if you dont trust me?

if you find an error, you can let me know and ill be happy to learn something. im just making statements and i welcome you to research them, i think i mentioned that in other post.

im not sure if the bottom part is supposed to be sarcasm or whatever. BUT....
look johnny, youre wrong again! tee hee
ram isnt the only way to produce textures in the sense you mean. everything must hit ram ofcourse but they can be brought in from the dvd and flushed once per frame, in theory. gee, youre dumb. i mentioned that before. you walked right into that one, didnt ya, little fella?

oops, i think im having too much fun with this. i dont mean to come across like i hate you, but you should atleast try to hold off on and or admit to mistakes.
ugh i dont mean to come accross as an asshole but i also dont want to spend too long writing this post.

i said before on this very board that sonys original technical docs said they recommend you somehow stream the textures from the dvd. for each frame. it has the bandwidth in theory to do it (one good thing about ps2.) but it hasnt been done yet, and you can be sure the dev teams who have made stuff for ps2 arent idiots, so it isnt some easy thing to do. so far noone has done it afaik. not even mgs2/square.
it may not be possible.
dont waste my time with the 'i have faith in yu suzuki' statement that you will probably make. im not even that interested anymore. im just saying realistically its not very likely at this time. damnit, i mentioned this whole concept, in an earlier posts so im basically repeating myself. thats why im not going to reply to posts like this anymore. that and youre very uninformed and have an attitude problem. a bad combination.

anyway, its very very complicated. you can feed in math operations to 2 units at once and thats how you get max polygons, or use one for ai if you have really complex ai, but its all done simultaneously and thus very complicated to program for. then add to that streaming in all the textures you need then just using the 4mb for using frames and adding effects passes and stuff. all of this is done once per frame. blah. they made it so complex.
i just thought id let you know since you very well didnt.

 

Llan,

Why bother trying to have a dialogue with someone who is such an obvious tool. Regardless of the content of the argument, just looking at the posts of this jtx make it clear he/she isn't really interested in sharing information or constructive dialogue.

Incidentally, jtx, it may come to a surprise to you, but you will find there are many who highly value Llanfair's contributions to the virtua fighter community. It's a shame that the same can't be said for you.

-Jason

 

i quoted him making a wrong statement and called him on it.

its that simple

and i also got on his back because of the "whats wrong with you people" thread he made, which is my opinion. and im sick of people making long posts that basically say they have faith in suzuki and will wait and see what happens and act like its some big revalation, and everyone should stop speculating. i think its wierd to do that. either care or dont. but dont scream 'whats wrong with youuuuuuuuu' hehe

he could be the pope but if hes wrong about something (for example a statement that ps2 is more powerful than naomi2), im going to tell him. instead of admitting to it, he wanted to argue.

he may be a great guy. who knows. but that isnt the fucking issue. see above.

-jtx

 

Why bother trying to have a dialogue with someone who is such an obvious tool. Regardless of the content of the argument, just looking at the posts of this jtx make it clear he/she isn't really interested in sharing information or constructive dialogue.

I have to disagree. He is sharing information. I
thought that would be obvious considering what he was saying.

Personally, I take Ice-9's approach here. The PS2 (for all its
faults and it does have them--it's like Sony's Saturn) will
be the medium for a passable VF game. I likely will never
play it because I align with Rich on the purchase issue. Aside
from brief flings I've never been interested too much in games
outside of VF and I already own a DVD player (a much better
one than the PS2). I'll go Naomi2.

GE

 

jesus, you're a jackass.

It's a game. I'm sure it'll be fun to play. who gives a shit about the textures/graphics. I still like to play "Tron Deadly Discs" on the Intellivision. Graphics aren't everything. Yu has made three stellar fighting games. That track record suggests VF4 will also be a good game, regardless of what system is running on.


twit-head.


kbcat

 

in this thread we are talking about graphics, llanfair replied about graphics, and now im replying back to him.... and guess what.... its about graphics. and i was clarifying and adding more information to the topic. what a fucking idiot you are.

now this isnt just a normal flame here, im totally serious, you must be incredibly stupid to not be able to grasp the above. seriously, are you slightly retarded? do you ever find yourself in situations and have absolutely no idea what is going on? you just wandered into this thread and completely missed the point.

>jesus, you're a jackass.
>It's a game. I'm sure it'll be fun to play. who gives a >shit about the textures/graphics. I still like to >play "Tron Deadly Discs" on the Intellivision.
>Graphics >aren't everything. Yu has made three stellar >fighting >games. That track record suggests VF4 will also >be a good >game, regardless of what system is running on.

what makes you think i give a fuck about any of the above, moron?

all these PUSSY truisms and p-c nothing statements to support your precious little dumb ass flame. thats all implied here, we all appreciate vf dumbass. do you think thats going to win people over or cover up the fact that you have no clue whats going on?

take a moment to look at how stupid you are.

"thank you, drive through." seems like you should be able to understand that, with your ricki lake insults

>twit-head.
>kbcat

ps.
its too late to start throwing this cheap-shot, easy shit in.
take a stand somewhere else, cowboy

ALSO, READ THIS POST ATLEAST 5 TIMES RETARD, IM NOT GOING TO REEXPLAIN IT TO YOU. START AT THE TOP

 

i'll let kbcat and llanfair make their own arguments, however i'd like to point out that the "jackass" and other comments were probably aimed at you, personally, for the tone you used (snide, snotty), and having made your own personal attacks against them. I do not believe they were (entirely) directed at your arguments and facts used to back them up. you did throw the first stone ("subhuman").

 

Here's my question about graphics and lets keep in
mind that I don't pretend to know anything about
how textures or the like work. No matter what
Naomi2 can push won't the PS2 version be pretty
(graphically) comprable? Really? Gone are the
Sega Genesis/Saturn days where the difference
between arcade board and console were HUGE. The
gulf is getting smaller and smaller all the time
and the limit to what you can display and have
a reason for it (ie. it contributes to gameplay)
is being fast approached. I can't see the
differences being so massive that its a major
detractor. notwithstanding common arguments
about gameplay remaining intact (which it
rarely does...it usually is an approximation)
I just can't see the differences being large
enough to care.

To qualify this statement, yes I believe that
those with eyes will notice the difference
straight off but you become accustomed to what
you are seeing (or not seeing) fairly quick.

GE
-if you can understand what I'm trying to get across
here I'll be very impressed. It doesn't even make
sense to me.

 

yes i agree. i definetly do come across bad and i dont spend enough time editing, softening things up.

they are definetly doing it for those reasons, but in the case of kbkat (ive forgotten the others, kbat was most recent) i think its interesting, because of how he did it.

you said 'i dont believ ethey were (entirely) directed to my arguments and facts...' or something like that. yes, i dont think they were relating my args or facts at all. which is why i responded to em.

kbat needed an excuse to flame me because he didnt like me (because i insulted his friend (or desiered friend) i guess, i guess pretty natural, maybe to make himself more liked or something i dont know)

BUT he had to set it up like he had a point, and call me a jackass BECAUSE of something.

BECAUSE i am talking about graphics (in a thread about graphics where a person replies to me about graphics), i am a jackass and a twit brain. hehe. but ofcourse, thats totally stupid. he couldnt just make a pure statement, that i insulted someone and am a jerk for it.

for the record, in my reply i did not wonder why he called me a jackass, (youre response is explaining why he did, why the others flamed me) i just pointed out that i thought he was stupid because his argument was invalid. i knew/know what hes doing

i guess 'dude, youre an asshole, you called my friend subhuman' isnt as biting as 'youre a jackass, graphics arent everything, i love suzuki and i appreciate vf'

it was a nice shot though. it was nice to watch.
kind of like that scene in pulp fiction where the guy busts out of the bathroom and unloads a spray of bullets and totally misses. id give him an A on intensity but a F on ability to actually handle realtiy.

anyway, i just like to see what he does (and others.) i dont mind. i got it rolling by accident but ill try to enjoy it. i think probably 100% of the fault of 'bringing on' the bad attitude responses was definetly mine.

but at the very least i think im winning on all the points (not too hard, i only had about 2 main ones.) its also funny how lanfair could not admit that he was wrong about my first point at all, and that one was really obvious.

hmm.. getting late. good night. you guys are great

actually, as far as posts, id give you an A- for that one. not that you want it, ofcourse. it is totally accurate and there are no flaws in it. no big revalations either, but maybe to some people.

 

it might be comparable. but for me, i think, so what? playing dc vf3tb and later, possibly, ps2 vf4 will be akin to watching a pan and scan movie originally filmed in superscope, in mono, on a cruddy vhs player, on a 12" screen with dirt smeared over the screen. and it will suck even moreso because you know something better out there exists, but most people will actually prefer to use this version.

i am not one of those people that can proudly exclaim that they would play vf even if it were composed entirely of stick figures. screw that. i want supremely amazing graphics. i want superior sound. i want something that i can look at in amazement during the moments between fights. i still do that with vf1/2/3. and i will be very, very dissapointed if the jump seen in those games is not there in vf4.

 

are you in mass? do i know you?

 

Hmm... Somebody doesn't like to be wrong.
32 is bigger than 4 as far as i know.

Bigger = better. This may mean, though I'm no authotity on the subject, that ps2 = crap compared to naomi2.

PS2 = POS100k

 

Oh boy. This is why I hate text sometimes.

To quote myself, "And also, RAM is the ONLY way to produce textures - the relationship is linear (and obvious) More RAM = Better graphics, every single time."

This statement, btw, was pure sarcasm. It was an indication of the type of argument that I've heard from you, jtx. Your posts are almost entirely composed of how shit VF4 will be on the PS2 because of it's lack of RAM. My point, although sarcastically made, was that clearly textures are created through a variety of hardware tools - not just the RAM - and that the game will likely take advantage of the *other* tools to achieve that.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

i just thought id let you know since you very well didnt.


<hr></blockquote>

Your are right here. I don't know the ins and outs of the way the system works...I never claimed I did. However, neither you nor I have seen the game yet - (although you seem to be the only one to have ever seen the IGN shots before) Making bold statements about how crap it will be prior to seeing it is ridiculous. This is why Kbcat came out and called you an ass. You post pessimistically. Many respond with optimism - and in my case, sarcasm. You then respond by calling me an idiot.

Now, earlier in a different thread, I said that PS2 is more powerful than Naomi2. I still stand by this. Here's my logic - and feel free to argue it. Ask yourself, is DC more powerful than PS2. No, it's not. Well, Naomi2 is a DC with more RAM, right? You said this yourself and the information is widely known. So, then back to my sarcastic rant earlier, I played upon this more RAM means more power relationship. Which you denounced demonstrating other intricacies of the PS2 hardware design. So, is that it? The larger RAM on the Naomi2 is what makes it more powerful? I don't think so - and that's why I said what I said. Overall, I think the PS2 has way more potential than Naomi2.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

llanfair, this is it for you

it seems obvious now how desperate and pathetic you are getting. please read this because i give one particularly spactacular example of you saying that i wrote something that i didnt, and using that as a basis for youre WHOLE argument against me (the main one, the one that had a hope of being valid, anyway, unless youre going to fall back on the 'you sound pessemistic, which is why youre an asshole' thing.)

this will undoubtably charge you up more, but i may not be here to toy with you, when you regroup and come in for your third or fourth argumentative stike. im sure it will be great, though.

perhaps you think no one will bother to read my original post and both of our earlier replies. your whole post was a weak attempt at trying to 'REinterpret' history.

and heres that specific gun shot to the head for ya:
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Now, earlier in a different thread, I said that PS2 is more powerful than Naomi2. I still stand by this. Here's my logic - and feel free to argue it. Ask yourself, is DC more powerful than PS2. No, it's not. Well, Naomi2 is a DC with more RAM, right? You said this yourself and the information is widely known.


<hr></blockquote>


i NEVER said that. i wonder if there is anyone who expects me to continue replying to a person like this??????????????????????????????????????????????????

since hes obviously lost on the main argument, hes trying to change the whole course of the argument to <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

[My] Making bold statements about how crap it will be prior to seeing it is ridiculous. This is why Kbcat came out and called you an ass. You post pessimistically. Many respond with optimism - and in my case, sarcasm. You then respond by calling me an idiot.

<hr></blockquote>

this has nothing to do with anything. i was making statements supported by fact, and its only youre sensitive little heart that is damaged by me pointing out that n2 is much more powerful than ps2. youre only resorting to this to cover up all the mistakes and youre inability to admit to them and some how 'win the argument'. dont change this into some emotional/religious bullshit to win people over. is that the only way you think you can cover up the fact that your wrong? you still havent even admitted to it. and i dont think youl win any points for that now, several replies into the thread.

i think this <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

You post pessimistically. Many respond with optimism - and in my case, sarcasm. You then respond by calling me an idiot.

<hr></blockquote>

angle is really sad. did that "move" anyone? lemme know. it has nothing to do with anything and is at most YOUR interpretation. im feeling bad that i wasted my time even responding to you now

ill probably let you have the last word, if its really good, maybe everyone will believe you and not bother to read/remember the previous posts. have fun.

ps. please respond back with your age and education level and i may decide to keep responding. this isnt a joke or sarcasm. im honestly interested. why should you feel insulted and not let me know?

im letting off on you now because if i didnt, this would be like me shooting a diseased, retarded cow in the head over and over. plus im getting bored with you. i think im (hopefully) done with this thread

 

Actually the RAM on the PS2 is very different from "normal" SDRAM. It's not really directly comparable. You shouldn't compare a particular component of a system to another component from a different system. Hardware is architecture, not a mish-mash of components.

That said, is the PS2 architecture all powerful? Better than Naomi2? Doubt that. However, I have played some PS2 games and they look pretty good to me. I have confidence that AM2 can do something great with the hardware. Better than Naomi2? Again, probably not, but good enough that I would buy it.

(I already have a PS2.)

ice-9

 

Re: llanfair, this is it for you

ok - y'know what? I just can't seem to say anything right with you. And it really doesn't matter. You said I was wrong and I responded still supporting my opinion on the PS2's potential. If I misquoted you, that's my bad - sorry.
I was just a little surprised by your initial lack of confidence in AM2's supposed VF4 for PS2, that's all. It's your opinion, btw, and you're entitled to it. My opinion, on PS2, is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. This has nothing to do with being right or wrong - it's an opinion. In hindsight, I realize that I should have prefaced my "PS2 is more powerful than Naomi2" statement with an "IMO".

So, thank you for letting me have the last word - I hope the subject is finished.

Oh, and btw, I'm 25, married, have one honours degree in Human Biology and have 1.5 years left in a degree in Chemical/Biomedical Engineering. What are your credentials?

cheers,


<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>