Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown Lion Thread

Hi all,
After looking at Lion frame data and watching a bunch of FS videos, I figured I would write a little something to help Lion players (and myself ;p) getting started with the new Lion from FS.


Notable improvements from VF5
• PK is +3 instead of -2

• Low P is 12 frames instead of 13

• K is back to 13 frames instead of 14 so -13 moves can be punished with KK for around (40 guaranteed damage and a knockdown

• FC 6P is now FC 3P which means Lion is now able to perform 6PP from crouch. Which is a major improvements for punishing low moves that recover at -14 to -17 (after that he may have more damaging option)

• 1K now gives a combo opportunity on counter hit

• 66P is now 5 frames faster (28 to 23 frames) hence better has a whiff punish from long/mid range

• 33P+K now has a built in hit throw on any hit. It’s a bit less safe (-8 on block from -6) but still not punishable

• 46K is no longer throw counterable (-9 from -12)

• 46K+G now groundbounces


Notable new Moves
• 41236+P : a new low move that side turns opponent on hit. It puts Lion at +5 at the opponent side and is semi circular. With all these perks it still manages to be “only†-16 on block (knees are not guaranteed). So this is probably one of the best lows in the game.

• 43P+K: a new move that creates a ground bounce allowing Lion to extend combos.

• 41236+P+G a new throw that does 60pts of damage

• Tourousoufuu P+K : a high guard break from Tourousoufuu stance that gives lion a guaranteed combo opportunity with 44K launcher. Probably one of it best new moves as it will beat stand guarding opponent that rely on the new throw escape system too much ^^It gives you more damage than the previous Tourousoufuu P+G throw from VF5 and more ring out or wall combo potential.

• Tenshinbokutaisouchoushu : 3 or 7 P+K+G, K a new low move that gives +7 on hit. It may guarantee a throw if your opponent hits the wall after the hit (need to check that once the game is out)

• 1K+G,P : a low ->high string that is guaranteed on side hit (may be even on face to face normal hit need to check) and leaves Lion at +2 (+4 on side hit) to press the advantage.

OVERALL IMPRESSION:
I believe FS Lion is really a boosted version of his VF5 incanation. A lot of his existing moves where buffed and he seems to fit in the new system really well by having a guard break, 2 differents ground bounce moves to do crazy combos, and a low that side turns the opponent. His trow game is above average with 2 60Pts damage throws. His mids got slightly better with 33P+K hit throw, and his lows are better than ever.

COMBOS:
Work in progress

 

Awesome list! From what I played at PAX I love how Lion got a lot stronger!

He went from being one of the characters who was pretty mediocre at punishing low attacks (at least until you got used to 446PP), to being the character that has a guard break and just about anyone can use him and punish low attacks decently.

And now he combos even more than before (kind of true of everyone I think though), and his damage potential has gotten a lot higher than it was in VF5. His Risk:Reward essentially got flipped.

I do miss some of the moves that got taken out, but they were moves that weren't that strong anyways, more showy. Just from watching videos, he is so strong in Final Showdown!

(TSF) P+K looks crazy, both aesthetically and functionally. I see Chibita using it a lot, including okizeme situations. Best followup to the guard break seems to be 44K combos, but I also saw Chibita use it as a free 3P+K combo for flare. Aesthetically, it looks crazy when it hits (instead of guard breaks) as the opponent is slammed back and onto their rear.

33P+K confused me for awhile on videos, but it's a nice option to see.

The impression I get is, he's still very flashy (though I miss some of the moves that were taken out) and as Chibita has shown you can be REALLY FLASHY with Lion, but now he seems REALLY strong when played on a much more functional and straight-forward game.

His damage level is good on a lot of extended combos and it's surprising some of the situations where you can land a 43P+K bounce in a combo (in the Pre-Release battle between Chibita and Fuudo, a nice Shun combo was (crouch)6P+G --> dash --> 46P+K(G) --> (6)P(G) --> 43P+K --> 6PP).

(UPDATE: Learned to read 41236P ^_^ Thanks for answering this in the original thread!) Does anyone know the pros and cons for using QCF+P? This is the new low swipe move that seems to be half-circular. I see Chibita use it a lot but I don't really understand its strengths yet.

And as if Lion needed any more pokes that can be used while baiting and footsie, he has that low kick into a high-ish punch move that Chibita also likes to throw in.

Lion already had great baiting moves, but they all got better! 44K combos are bigger now, especially because of bounding/slamming (43P+K). And with 1K comboing on MC, this one is huge as it was already one of Lion's great baiting moves--though I tend to hit this thing on mC more often than MC because I use it as a whiff-punisher. Also as a cheezy low strike that does not look low. Great flair though!

Anyways, FS Lion was so much fun to play at PAX and I'm looking forward to playing FS Lion this weekend at Northwest Majors!

-Chanchai

P.S. Another fun flashy move, but very risky (you can get high-punch combo'd for big damage) is TSB (4+P+K+G stance) 9P+K which will hop up in the air and do an overhead slam which you can combo.

 

To go further on HCF+P

From what I've seen in videos and understands of the new system it allows Lion to apply these kind of mixups:

Mid variant 1: HCF+P into 3K, if opponent was crouching you're at +8 which means that if the opponent holds guard (3 more frames to turn and guard) he will not be able to block a PKP string which I believe leaves him still side turned. Note that he can still decide to attack, leaving him openened to side crumples. If you get blocked you're at -4. Low risk medium reward ending in + frame advantage. If he attacks you get a side crumple, only 11 frame P can interrupt.

Mid variant 2: FC6 P+K. Compared to variant 1 it won't give the same return on NH. But it has advantages: 1 it is two handed=no sabaki, no Ying yang for Aoi. 2: it gives a wall stagger due to the 22 damage so it's a better option near walls. Also it pushes back on block and is only -3 so it's VERY safe. It's also a 16 frames attak so if hcfP recovers low it may be able to beat 11 frame moves. If not, then the CD buffer will make it at least 17.


Low variant 1: another hcf+P,it will give +8 on NH so same situation as 3k NH, but it is slower than 3K, hence more interruptable.On guard it's -13 from the side, so depending on wether it recovers high or low it may be very low risk (low P) to medium risk (PK etc).

low variant 2: 1K+G,P, this one seems to produce a wall stagger, nasty. -6 on block if opponent doesn't crouch under the high.


Anti High guard, step variant: TSF P+K is a very good option as a counter to escape, high block or stand block + TE. A very good option to counter advance defense but loses to straight simple abare.


That's it from what I recall from the videos, basicaly it is also a small analysis of what I understood from the side game options Lion gets in general. Hope this helps

 

It helps a whole lot! Thanks so much for the reply!

A couple more notes:

46K+G no longer results in Back-Turned. You can combo from it as well (ie. 2P --> 6PP, and probably better)

3/9P+K+G, K crumples on MC.

1K+G (vanilla) is now 44K+G

I swear the "hit box" of 44K has been reduced since Vanilla. It used to be crazy long (as far as it looks) about sidekick range. It now seems to whiff at that range and is effective somewhere between Elbow and Sidekick range (though sometimes I think maybe it's just elbow range now). I have definitely been punished harshly a few times in FS for misjudging the distance because it seems quite reduced from vanilla.

I need to look at a japanese FS movelist for 214P sabaki. I actually don't even know if it Sabakis anything anymore Definitely ate a lot of attacks for trying!

4P+K+G does sabaki various attacks.

9K is good when opponent's back is up against the wall.

1K combos on Counter-Hit, typical bound-combo finisher works in most cases.

2K, K+G can combo into things like 6PP on MC. This does not make it any safer to use, of course.

UPDATE: Just saw that the FS Rev. A movelists are up already!

 

Yeah, 1K+G is now 44K+G, and it no longer is full circular, only semi. I'll update the first post with a nerf section.

214P, have the same properties as before iirc, doesn't work against Mid punches or elbows.

May be Tourouteihozen (4+P+K+G) will fill the gap if it sabakies mid punches.
Speaking of Tourouteihozen, nice additions to this stance are Tourouteihozen K+G and 9P+K, as opponent reactions against this stance were often either LP or evade, which Lion had no real answer to (aka useless stance imo)

Tourouteihozen K+G will stuff evaders and put you at +12 (due to the new MC on evaders system) with opponent side turned. PKP guaranteed, or opponent can't guard 3P+K.

Tourouteihozen 9P+K has a hop animation, so it will probably beat LP, and gives a combo. I hope it's true after PK (stance), but I guess it was made for it so I'm confident it will work.

 

Finally got my hands on the game ^^

6P+K, is a new mid that side turns on any hit and is safe on block. It's slow though, but perfect for techrollers. Looks two handed but isn't.

Bad news
44K range seems a bit shorter like akai said.
43P range is a lot shorter too
2K+G range seemed shorter to me.

Good news:
6+P+K+G, P+K guard break is a 2 handed move, no tenchi for you Aoi

Old FC6P is now FC3_P so it's now easier to do with 33_P motion
41236+P recovers low so FC 6P+K can be done with 6P+K after it, thus not wasting frames. This means 41236+P --> 6+P+K is not interruptable, not sabakiable, not "tenchi-able", only counterable by Aoi.

1K, is really good now. I see it as Lion new move when you predict a sabaki or Aoi tenchi stance, since most sabakis doesn't sabaki low kicks, you'll get the counter hit to a 60 ish combo where in vanilla 5 you would have scored around 20pts.


Some combos:
66P, 46P+KPP, KK
43P, LP, 6PP

FC3P (CH), 44K P+K, 43P+K, 6PP on light weights is possible but hard, you need to input 44K very early and 43P+K as soon as possible.
FC3P (CH), PKP, 6PP is easy, works on most middleweights and carries a long distance
FC3P (CH), P, 43P+K, 6PP same


FC 6P+G, low P, 46P+K, 6PP works on most of the cast minus Taka
FC 6P+G, 46P+K, P, 43P+K, 6PP works on some char (tested on Shun) it deals a whooping 73pts and has good RO potential. it's a bit harder though, you need to do everything as fast as possible.
FC 6P+G, LP, 46P+K, PKP is mentionned in the master guide, haven't tested yet.

1K counter, P, 43P+K, 6PP

Side crumple: 46K+G, P, 43P+K, 6PP
Wall combo: stagger, 9K, 46K+G, P, 43P+K, 66P+KP, 8P+K (for 98 pts seems reliable with no strict angle conditions)

 

New Lion is fun
(ch)FC3P 66P+K(G) P 43P+K 6PP
(ch)FC3P 46P+KPP 43P+K 6PP (OS only)
44KP+K P 43P+K 6PP
All works on jean

 

Glad you are able to play the game now (as is everyone else) ^_^

One addition to the combo you listed:
66P, 46P+KPP, KK

Against Akira, use 66P, 46P+KPP, 6PP

His head tends to be just a bit too low for the first K, even if you do 6_KK. So 6PP works for him ^_^

Also, I am not Akai, but Akai is awesome!

It took me awhile to get used to 44K's lesser range in this game. Again, I used to be able to nail an opponent from pretty much full backdash range, but now it feels like it's between elbow and sidekick. Might not seem much for some people, but it sucks when you whiff and you knew you had them!

1K definitely went from annoying poke --> valid combo. I used to use it just as a whiff punisher if I was late to react to something because the range and low property (and deceptive animation) gave you free hits when you needed to break the opponent's momentum. Now, I do go for it as a "low starting combo" and it's just as easy to use as it always was.

Oddly enough, 2K+G does not feel shorter to me, but I probably always used it very close to the opponent (also consider that I also use Lion's full suite of low attacks in Vanilla and in FS, there were some fun setups!).

43P is definitely nerfed compared to vanilla, but still serves the same purpose which is to punish predictable or slow highs to get a free combo.

Thanks for all the awesome stuff you posted. Here's a Lion combo that I found (from watching tournament videos), and it uses a launcher I really enjoy:

(This was done Lion vs. Lion, should work against many though)
46K --> 66K --> 6_P(G) --> 43P+K --> 6PP

Oh yeah, don't underestimate 66K in general. It's a very valid mid/long range attack that is so easy to hit check.

 

I was a little upset with the range on 43p now, but with all the other great changes he's received i'm pass it.

He lost his grab from Tourousoufuu, but on oki you can still play around with Tourousoufuu 6p and Tourousoufuu p+k. However Tourousoufuu 6p isn't full circular so it can be sidestepped. I just forgot which direction. 41236p has nice range and a quick low, but -16 on b

 

Tourousoufuu 6P and Tourousoufuu K have different escape directions so it's a guess.

 

Is there anywhere with a decent combo list of vs Taka/heavyweight characters? Seems option are kinda limited on them from messing around a bit in training mode(most 43p+k combos don't seem to work at all) .

 

I was just messing around with combo's vs. taka earlier. I'll try to upload something tomorrow.

 

from the Master guide (pre A version), if you find something that does no longer work, your feedback is welcome

44K combos you can do P 43P+K on everyone but taka, with a note avbout Akira that I must check
On Taka use 6_P KK


for FC3P: 46P+K, 6_P 43P+K, 6PP is listed to work on everyone, taka included (didn't check)

on 1K(CH) use 6_P, 6PP against taka

on 66P use 46P+K, KK on everyone

for FC6P+G do 6_P,KK on Taka.

I'll do something better when the wiki will be back

Atm I'm still looking for a descent combo on FC6P+G that will work on EVERYONE besides Taka. The guide lists low P, 46P+K, 6PP but from what I experienced it wil drop on a few chars (Kage iirc)

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
44K combos you can do P 43P+K on everyone but taka, with a note about Akira that I must check
On Taka use 6_P KK
</div></div>

I couldn't get this to work on normal hit on anyone above Akira weight class(move hits it just never does the ground bounce ). Works on Akira on CH couldn't get it to work on the others on CH either.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
for FC3P: 46P+K, 6_P 43P+K, 6PP is listed to work on everyone, taka included (didn't check)
</div></div>

I had to remove the 6_P to get it to work on jeff and wolf doesn't seem to work at all on Taka even a simple P, 43P+K doesn't work on him.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
on 1K(CH) use 6_P, 6PP against taka
</div></div>

not sure if i,m doing anything wrong on this but i couldn't manage to land the 6_P on Taka even mashing it, it always whiffs.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
for FC6P+G do 6_P,KK on Taka
</div></div>

I couldn't get the 2nd K to land in this combo.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Atm I'm still looking for a descent combo on FC6P+G that will work on EVERYONE besides Taka. The guide lists low P, 46P+K, 6PP but from what I experienced it wil drop on a few chars (Kage iirc)
</div></div>

I have been using FC6P+G, 6_P, 6PP works on everyone except Taka and does 56dmg. For an easy combo just do 3P+K+GPPP works on everyone except taka for 54.

 

Not sure if this goes here or not but here goes......can someone give an in depth explanation of lion's oki game, I read or heard somewhere (without explanation) that his oki game is very strong. I'm very new to the game.

 

Little known fact about Lion's low kick (though been known for a long time by a few, including myself--but I have mentioned in occasionally), it's still the only low attack that I know of that beats Ex High Attacks.

I just tested a few low attacks against Jacky's P+K,K in Record Mode to verify and sure enough:

* Ex Highs crush low attacks in general (not just low punch).

* Lion's d+K treats Ex High attacks like they were normal high attacks.

Given that Lion can now do combos like d+K,K+G --> f+PP (and probably even more), you can do some targeted practice against your favorite Ex High.

 

hmmm.... didnt know that.

 

Yo can anyone help me, i'm new to vf and I'm having issues with basics and fuzzy guarding(aka Evasion-2) Tag is SRKDrFaust

 

what moves are you using to force people to stand up? I'm not talking seeing a crouch and punishing it, but his good moves that are part of his flow and keep people standing/honest while also being safe to use. -i can't find any moves that really scare an opponent to not crouch.

what parts of lions game are you getting most damage from in an offensive flow? in vids i see a lot of guardbreak combos, but other than that it's usually a few throws and a few correct guesses with pokes to knockdown. it doesn't feel like the complete picture.

and how are you punishing (not in frames, but just in playstyle) habits of the opponent?

I'm having a really hard time in scaring the opp and forcing players into the defensive.

 

Wow man Lion has so much stuff to scare players into perma defending. Things like 4pp, 1pp, even 2kk that have evasive properties are important I think, because if you interrupt an opponents flow by 4pping under their high or 1pping around there mid when they're in mid offence enough times...they're not gunna be so keen to go on the offensive which means you have free reign to poke em to death. Sidestep>44k is pretty powerful. I think Lion is best played from roughly a dash length away. Where they are just in range of these pokes but you can still dash out of range of any of their stuff and play around with his mid range attacks (his sweeps,66p,43p). His big damage will come from wall combos but 44k will take off a 3rd life on CH and is great for interrupted prematurely entered strings that are not quite in range yet. His sideturned stuff if also really powerful. And you can evade big moves and do 336p+k for a side crumple and 96 dmg. 41236p seems like a very useful low and will leave them sideturned on hit, pkp is guarenteed if the first p hits on sideturned.

3/9pkg pp goes under highs in some instances (I think it's considered crouched after the 1st or 2nd p), will stagger a crouching opponant, making the the second p guaranteed (good for tech rollers) and go under mid rising kicks and around full circulars (this I have started testing to see if I can replicate it EVERYtime but have so far been unsuccesful). 3/9pkg has some decent mix up applications but it's not amazing. Mix ups are strong with Lion.

Sorry for the word vomit and lack of formatting. Hopefully theres some useful stuff contained in that mess.