Virtua Fighter 6

there are many things that could do for an overhaul, i'd count low punch among them.

Its not the strongest tactic in the game, nor is it at all overpowered. But a large portion of the game can begin to revolve around the usage and the dealing with low punch. A fight doesn't so much turn on the low punch factor but can revolve around it all the same. Thus you have a number of matches that revolve around what amounts to a "nuisance weapon."

Just as some games suffer from an over abundance of nuisance enemies in place of game content that is more entertaining, VF at times can suffer from this nuisance weapon in favor of interesting and dynamic gameplay.

 

Food for thought:

Just re-watched the first 5 matches of the Tokyo Bay area cup battle of [Skylords]. 44 low punches in first 5 matches--i didn't feel like watching all of the matches. I believe only two of them went five rounds (maybe 3 i had it written down).

I readily admit that cozby (to say it is ALWAYS in your favor is nonsense) and tim have both played 100x more vf5/vf5fs than i have. I realize that a lot more than # of low punches goes into a match, but that is still many low punches and at the highest level of play. 3 out of the 5 matches the player who low punched more won. In match the player who low punched less won. Last match was 4-4 low punches. those numbers tell us nothing about the game though, but included in case anyone was wondering. Oh and i did not count any low punches that are part of combos, because that would be silly.

Furthermore, the risk-reward of low punch skews increasingly in favor of reward as the level of skill decreases in players. The less skilled a player is the more likely they are to punch into low punch CH, is more likely to freeze up, to not react properly to being low punched. It would be quite interesting (in my opinion) if they removed all damage from low punch. Not saying it would be better or worse, i just wonder how much the gameplay would change (probably not much at top level).

 

I am not saying that it is invincible. I am not saying that I just cant figure out low punchers. I don't really get why people get almost defensive about anybody saying anything about the game design. For the record, I have played a ton of vf4, evo, 5, and FT. I have dealt with a million low punches. I have enough experience to know of what I speak.

I think that the fact that you can see good players low punching half a dozen times in a round suggests that the game makes it more useful and less risky than it should be considering how dumb it is. Imagine in a real fight: one guy throwing a flurry of punches, the other guy calmly dropping to one knee and throwing a cock punch. This would not be a good strategy. Sure, games are not realistic, but typically the unrealistic parts serve to make a game cooler than reality, not stupider.

They should change this. Maybe the answer is to allow low kick to function in sort of the same way that low punch currently does. At least that would not look as stupid. I really think that they should rethink the emphasis on strings. If that were toned down, there wouldn't be as much of a need for the low p. Don't think they can put that genie back into the bottle tho...

 

Okay. Not having watched the matches, I bet you didn't count the number of times attacks were used in situations that would stop 2p, right? Did you count the number of times 2p was stuffed before the animation came out?

 

but, less than you would think. Also one of the players was lion, who has so many good lows that he needs less low punch than most characters (at least in my opinion).

 

Is this evidence for or against the idea that there are too many low punches? I would say, for...

 

Sorry but low punch isn't the only attack qualified for CH risk.

Smart ass.

 

Not being a wise ass actually so much; you basically were saying that there were even more low punches thrown and I would agree. Yeah, they can be and are CH...

Maybe SEGA should let you get xp and level up your char's penis so that low punch does less damage. Or let you equip a codpiece item so 2p on CH would only put you at -2. I got lotsa ideas...

 

lol@HF

Post #807 was exactly what i thought when i read that.
Post #809 was him switching to smart ass mode, lol. I thoroughly enjoy 95% of Happy friend's posts. Nice to read well-thoughtout (if oft malicious) and properly constructed posts. I detect actual intelligence in this alien life-form. I think we should all flame and ridicule him, its only proper internet etiquette.

 

Or, as mentioned earlier, look at how much Denkai and GT low punch in other on youtube. This isn't to call them out or anything; the game encourages it or probably demands it if you want to give yourself the best chance of winning. They should nerf it somehow, in conjunction with dialing down the strings that make it sort of essential as defensive offense. Maybe they could give it more frames of guard stun which would make the low puncher in a worse position if it gets evaded...

 

Excellent observation Akai. And i'm certain at least two matches went 5 rounds. Still, the numbers are definitely misleading in both directions.

A few observations herein:
*If you watch the matches both players have beautiful use and timings of mids and evades and guard (as one would expect from two of the best players in the world). In particular mid pressure though. I would imagine the amount of low punch (or lack of depending on perspective) was certainly influenced by this.

*The lion player actually lowpunched significantly more through the matches i watched and may have contributed to success? It's really so tough to say. Low punch is about decision making at that level, so even if he didn't choose low punch maybe his next best decision would be as good or better.
*The average of three or less around actually did not seem like so few as it actually is. Some of the rounds were over with a serious quickness.

*Also contributing to an avg of less than 3 per round i believe could be attributed to the matchup. Lion has a plethora of effective lows to use mitigating his need for low punch (although he Lp'd more than goh), and lion has some excellent low crushers. Goh has some serious mids to chase lion away from spending too much time in crouched states. IDK, i could be wrong. But maybe the threat of lion's low crushes spooked goh into relying on mids more with the caveat that his mids (particularly 3k) will function well vs a crouched lion game. Wild speculation but hell, i have to try and understand. I'd rather be wrong than watch it mindlessly.

*Once lion gets his offensive game and pressure game pumping in a round he was steam rolling to some 10 second-ish finishes. With that kind of pressure game stopping to do a low punch would be silly. Especially given his other low options to use at advantage.

And all that said we still saw about, idk, two and a half low punches per round. There was some extremely beautiful VF played as well that involved no low punching. It was a bit feast or famine. Game 3 had 13 lp's and was somewhat abysmal. I do think other matchups would probably be pushed more towards a low punch heavy game. As some would probably steer further away. After watching high end US players i have to say i was somewhat pleasantly surprised by the lack of low punch in the video though. And by lack of, i mean approximately 3 a round.

Lastly, i'm mostly interested in the discussion about it. I think low punch needs a bit of a rework, but of course my opinion is my opinion and i certainly wouldn't want sega to balance their game around my opinion...or they may do something crazy like give lei a NAMCO LAUNCHER I do think removing DM P+K actually went a long way to inadvertently nerfing low punch across all levels of lower end play. Also i noticed the community as a whole plays the game better without the lp dmpk mixup to lean on until they give up the game It seems players who have competitive spirit strive harder to unlock the games mysteries rather than just unlocking a better dmpk timing.

 

^^^This.
And i too agree it is not a critique of GT or Denkai. In fact, they use low punch more skillfully than others. I just wish the options of where to apply that skill was re-appropriated somewhere else. It seems making it slightly worse on block might work. I wouldn't mind seeing any charged move not counting low punch towards its input either. I.e. no more akira low punch straight into double palm, lei into gut crumply single palm etc.

 

We all agree about the good risk/reward (crouch state/ frames advantage on CH) of the 2P but If you nerf it the guessing game would be less interesting: as it is if I block 2P I must guess what my opponent will do next, backdash ( not possible if you nerf too much 2P on block) escape, abare, will he just guard stand up or stay in crouch state.

 

Be glad you have a move in 8K+GK that deals with it so effectively, eventually forcing the other guy to slow down and think more about jamming on 2P anytime something comes his way (step forward Scotland's stalwart Lauster).
That's the real issue here: the whole cast should have moves like that, Eileen's 9P, or Shun's 6K+G. As it is, these 2P blow-up moves feel unevenly distributed. Low punch itself though I don't think is going anywhere in Virtua Fighter. Just look at a basic Japanese tactic like evade into 2P, into counter hit sidekick, it's huge (even though hardly anyone I see online uses it). Pretty essential tool in re-float combos as well, and stopping apparently sixteen of Jacky's strings after the first blocked strike...

 

Yeah, it does work pretty well against Jacky strings. Also against Aoi players who like to spam property moves and yy. But again, I am pretty strict and old school. I don't really have much use for magic property moves or magic eat everything moves like yy or Goh's. I'd VF6 to be something in between VF3 and Evo... Chances of that happening are around zero.

As for 2p, I understand using it to interrupt strings. You are kind of asking for it by throwing out strings, even though it looks dumb and should maybe be replaced with a reworked low kick or something. What is more annoying is the move's utility at even situations or in poke battles or in the middle of canceled strings, especially if you don't know the character.

 

2P blows folks who don't like to use mid launchers from adv. Highs are strong but they are for very specific purposes. You can KIND OF use mids mindlessly from adv.

 

Way I see it, the people complaining about 2p are the ones who are getting blown up from it. Adapt, people.