Virtua Fighter popularity... Relaunch?

Im not gonna knock Sega on releasing VF5R for consoles just yet simply because its taken namco forever with Tekken 6 which we havent even caught a glimpse of for consoles.

LostCloud I could not agree with you more regarding Dural as what is currently the lamest Boss ever. Worst than Ogre, worst than Seth, and worst than Unknown (actually I liked Unknown).

Seriously working retail for 13+ years Ive heard "whats this Virtua Fighter game all about", my reply "it revolves around a number of fighters entered in a World Fighting Championship for a large prize", their response "hmmmm never mind". Its too cliche and too old it needs a complete rework.

 

I don't think a reboot would help. The reason why VF is not doing as well as it’s peers is the game play.

Honestly I can only tell you my experience with VF. I've bought VF4 twice and VF4 Evo once and I kept getting rid of them because I honestly didn't get it. Finally I was able to wrap my mind around VF5 but that took over a year and a lot of frustration. I'm willing to bet most people are not going to spend that much time... or money to figure out a silly video game, they would of played it once and if they didn‘t like it chances are they will never pick up another VF game again. Those fighting fans went to DOA, Soul Caliber or (Come on Marvel give me another Mutant Academy game) and got instant gratification something I think VF sorely lacks.

The big problem VF faces (if not all fighing games) is the same sticky situation that Turned Based Rpg’s are in. There’s a small but dedicated following and if you break away from a certain mold your going to have a lot of disappointed fan’s. On the flip side. Turning everything on it’s head has the opportunity to pull in new fan’s and the hope of building a larger fan base.

So my opinion… it is what it is. If SEGA want's to draw in new fans I honestly think it would have to be a whole new IP.

 

This thread went from interesting to CRAP in just a few pages...

VF has got the best SYSTEM of all fighing games. It doesen't have the full motion CG shit and the ""you killed my father, REVENGE!!!!111"" shit, but to argue that it's fighting system is somehow at fault is just plain retarded. Next Instantoverhead is going to come here to tell me to play SF4 LOL.

 

Edit period over..
Kage would make a better poster boy in the west.

 

I think I see where you at on this, but here are some facts.

1) VF is the best video game fighting system on the planet.

2) The overall graphics and attention to detail in the game
are not only awesome they are superior.

3) The balance between Characters is superior.

4) VF has the deepest fight gameplay available on the planet,
You cannot Top-Out on VF, There are always new skills, nuances
and Techniques to learn. VF gives the player tremendous
return on investment.

5) Among the true fans of VF are some of the best competitors
in world when it comes to fighting games. Most are also
some pretty decent peeps.

I'm not happy with how Sega is marketing the game, or how secretive they seem to be about console releases. It would be good if they had an annual press release about VF. I'm a PS3 fanboy, so I wish VF5 had online. But make no mistake about it
None of the fighting games out there even come close to VF in terms of technical execution, graphics, sound, or gameplay.

IMHO all of those other fighting games are foreplay and most of you know that. Even if ya'll held the top ranks and titles in those other fighters, deep down inside you know, that until you
man-up in VF you still got along way to go. <span style='font-size: 17pt'>Tekken, Soul Calibur, SF IV, DOA,etc all entry level drugs[/size]</span>. If you really want to get high you've got get down with the ETEG, sabaki, inashi, reversals, OM, DM, Frame advantage/disadvantage, and deep movelists of VF. You've got to become one with the stick. You have to settle for nothing short of your best.

Virtua Fighter might have room for improvement, but it has nothing to do with the gameplay, fighting system, graphics,
or attention to detail. Don't confuse marketing issues with
gameplay.

The audiences for 2d fighters and 3d fighters do overlap. But they are not the same. Lot-a-cats are down with fireballs, 15 ft high launchers, kangeroos, lighting, power-ups, one-hit kills,
surprise weapons during the match. Lot-a-cats are not down with any of that.

If VF has to give up its superiority, deepness, and quality to be popular, I'd rather see VF5 be the last installment in the series.

VF can improve the lobby and Online fighting interface also adding PS3. VF can add a complete tutorial mode, or a more educational quest mode (remember quest orders?) The customization could be a little more flexible. Sega could do a little better with marketing and keeping their fanbase informed But the gameplay, the fighting system, the balance in VF are virtually perfect.

If you don't want to put the time in to get the results you want from VF, then maybe VF is not 4 U. I like cut-scenes too, but I wouldn't want to trade game quality for them.

I don't think VF will ever be the most Popular[/size] fighting game, But
as far as the eye can see it is the Best[/size] fighting game.

BTW you-cats are missing the whole point of Dural. Dural is
the ultimate virtua fighter, the most legitimate boss in any fighting game I'm aware of. If you can snatch the pebble from Dural's hand, you are at least qualified to play the game /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

No reason to talk down on other fighting games (which you will never max out your abilites in either), if people on the message boards of those games wrote about VF that way it would piss people here off (as has been proven in the past).

 

Masterpo has always been wise, can anyone disagree with most of what he's listing? I for one can't and I agree with everything he said.

 

Yeah masterpo you have to say "VF is the best fighting system on the planet SO FAR", dont mistake opinions as facts, it might be that in a million years another game come around and steal VF superiority and then what will you do? you will die of embarrasment no doubt lol!!!!!

 

I agree. I'm not really <span style='font-family: Arial'>t</span>rying to talk the other fighters down, I play and enjoy most of them myself (particuarlly Tekken, DOA, Soul Calibur). I'm just trying to put VF in context of the other games. I don't think I've heard any fans of the other games disagree about VF's technical superiority. I have heard them say other games are more fun, or VF is boring, or VF sux. But I don't think(maybe I'm wrong) that there is any argument over VF's superior graphics, movelists, balance, gameplay. I really don't remember any substantive dispute with respect to VF's mechanics vs say MK or something.

There is a reason why VF (more than any other fighter) consistently wins best fighting game awards, and why its in the
Smithsonian Institute and the other fighters are not really
represented there.


You're also right about topping-out, I mispoke. It is true that games like SCIV, and Tekken will also always reward hard practice, and there seem to be nuances that can be learned perpetually, IMHO VF's capability in this area is greater.

I think (again maybe wrongly) that the best of VF players have had to learn more about VF than the best of Tekken/SCIV,SFIV etc, have had to learn about their games.

I also think that the best of VF players still have more to learn about VF than what the best of Soul Calibur players still have to learn about Soul Calibur. This is kind of tricky here, I hate to bring up math, I always get shot down when I do[/size]. But a math example comes to mind on this topic.

The set of integers is infinite (SCIV, Tekken, DOA etc)
The set of real numbers is also infinite (VF)

Although both sets are infinite there are more real numbers than
there are integers, partly because between every 2 integers is an
infinite set of real numbers /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Its true /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Although there is always something to learn and a higher level to reach in games like Tekken and Soul Calibur, there is even more to learn and even higher levels to reach in VF /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'm not hatin on the other fightin games. But somebody's got to be the best. My vote goes to VF. All men might be created equal
but all fighting games are not. One of them is going to be definitively better than the others /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif It might not be more fun though /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Here's a test: At least it is 4 me.

Somehow an ass whippin, just doesn't feel as bad in Mortal Kombat, or Tekken as it does in VF (I know that's subjective).
I recently fell for the Soul Crush in Soul Calibur (during a ranked match /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif ) I laughed it off. Likewise there's usually no hard feelings after getting pummelled by Kuma, Panda or the Kangeroo. I've even been taken out by Kung Lao's hat a few times, But there's nothing like Akira's knee to the face to put a little shame in your game /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Moral of the story.

VF requires more skill and rewards more skill better than the other fighters. (But then again I am a VF fanboy) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

 

+1. Can't say it better.
Masterpo, actually, in every fighting game on the planet, you can't even reach a perfect skill. Even if almost nobody like SF4 around here, I discover new gameplay aspects everyday and I love to learn and become better at a new game.

Execution-wise, I can't let you say that VF is the hardest game around. Even in Tekken and SC there are a lot of difficult combos, and I have a lot of trouble to pull out good combos in SF4.

In VF5 I play Akira and I'm pretty consistent with B'n'B combos, buffering dbl palm, knee & spod. I TE 2 directions often, I'm far from being an execution monster but I have some skills. And no, SF4 exec isn't easy.

 

Although a lot of the suggestions people posted here are extremely valid, the one thing people seem to forget is that VF is first and foremost and arcade game. And hardly any of the suggestions people have posted here help it in that context. Face it, AM2 develops VF for the arcade, and Sega ports it to the console as an afterthought. Now that's just a fact, plain and simple. Sega's attitude has always been that VF is an arcade game and that we should consider ourselves blessed to have the extreme honor of a console release bestowed upon us. I don't think Sega will ever make VF console releases a priority, simply because of this reason. So if you guys have any suggestions beyond improving things that are already in console releases of VF, I suggest you keep in mind they would first and foremost have to improve the arcade business for Sega to consider them.

 

I do think that Virtua Fighter has the fastest, most precise and responsive gameplay for a 3d fighter. Moves are generally not overpowered and must be used in a more specific manner, making the arsenal of useable moves at higher levels larger. The rules of the system are also typically more well defined than in other systems (why one type of move will beat another and so forth). The throw game is an integral part of the gameplay, but is not over or underpowered. The sidestepping and overall movement options are superior to most games in function, if not the execution.

But, Virtua Fighter doesn't have the best environments. It's throw game, while the best of the ones out there, is still lacking. And Virtua Fighter probably has the weakest ground fighting game out of all of the major 3d games.

With the exeception of ETEG and OM, all of these can be found in the other games you listed.

EDIT:

What the fuck. If the game were free, maybe. But you are a consumer. Your money helps keep Sega in business and food on their employees tables. Being an arcade only series is silly, especially with the resurgence in fighting game interest by average videogame players. Leaving money on the table = stupid.

 

Well if I had to rate fighting games in order of technical prowess required to play... VF, Tekken, KoF, BlazBlue, Soul Calibur (although 4 seems very unbalanced), SF4, and lastly DoA.

Sega just does not seem to put forth any real effort to give this game the bells and whistles. There marketing is also truly terrible I if they decided to give it some more features and hyped it like Capcom did SF4 you wouldnt be able to find a copy of VF on release day.

A very easy way for Sega to set VF miles apart from other fighting games especially at home is to focus on online play. Online play has become a huge issue for consoles the more well polished the online the better the game sells.

There is not a single console fighter with an extremely well polished online mode. Im talking tournament setups online, leagues, rooms, online training with a friend etc. I think the first fighting game to add this and it will come will be untouchable market wise.

 

Don't get me wrong! First, I'm on a couple of other messageboards too, because I'm into those fighting games as well.
I was playin Tekken B4 I even new what VirtuaFighter was! I was also playin Mortal Kombat B4 I knew what Tekken was. I have have Thousands of losses and a few wins in Soul Calibur, I have maybe 1500 serious DOA matches under my belt. I admit I don't do 2D (But I hear they're pretty sophisticated too). I'm just saying after playing winning and loosing many thousands of matches in lots of fighters, that IMHO the VF fighting system is the best on the planet and requires the most skill and rewards
more skill better than any other fighting game.

I personally would much rather take a defeat in any other fighter
than VF. But that being said I learn more from a loss in VF than any other game. Folks this is a very subtle point to get
but if you really search deep inside you'll see what I mean.

I'm sure that SFIV requires a great deal of skill and no doubt you can never reach perfection (I take back what I said about topping-out) but the cognitive affect of losing is different in VF because VF is closer to a simulation than any of the other fighters (excluding things like Fight Night, UFC 2009). So, the immersion in VF is different than a game where you can fly, jump, 100 ft, shoot fireballs from the palms of your hands, or impersonate a kangeroo. You guys got see me on this one.

Your mind simply won't let you identify as much with those fighters, because they are further from reality. Consequently
even if you are master of masters of the masters of Kangeroo
the sense of human achievement and accomplishment will not be the same as being the master of masters of the master of Wolf, or AOI, or Akira, etc. because the VF gameplay is based a little more in reality than the other fighting games (not that VF it is based completely on reality itself) But it is more so than the other fighters.

The lack of catapulting, speed dashing, flying, spitting poisonous mist, invoking lighting, etc is what gives VF a more serious feel and because it doesn't have those distractions there is more of a focus of raw skill instead of pyrotechnics. When you achieve master level play in VF it feels far more rewarding than when you achieve master level play in SFIV. I don't think anyone that has achieve master plevel play in both of those fighters will disagree with me. Its a simple matter of human cognition.

Its why gory movies tend not to be scary and scary movies tend not to be gory /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I've watched to Tekken players that had acheived a certain mastery of Kuma and the Kangeroo. It was some of the best stuff
I've seen. But its a totally different matter to watch to VF masters (totally different)

Its not about hatin on other fighting games. I'm actually a fan
of many. But VF is in another league. Which goes back to the subject of this post.

There is a greater distance between noobs and intermediate players in VF than there is between noobs and intermediate players of the other fighting games. This is one of the reasons
that VF is not as popular, because initially its not as fun, because it is likely that the person that introduces VF to you is not a noob. So when you play that person, you get pwned over and over again. It leaves a nasty taste in your mouth and you move on.

On the other hand the other fighting games tend to lend themselves much better to the inital button mashing urges of the
noob, so there is more of occassion for the noob to win rounds and in some cases luck up and win matches. Especially if they
luck up and pull off one of those Power moves /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif this leaves the noob with a good feeling about the game and sufficient motivation to learn more. Intermediate Vfers or even poor VF players tend to punish the noob (even when they're not really trying to "its automatic")

Its the distance between the noob and intermediate player and
the intemediate player and the advanced player that many times turns people off from VF and hence contributes to its lack of popularity.

Its easier to go from intermediate to advanced in Soul Calibur or Tekken, than it is to go from intermediate to advanced in VF.

While this may not be true of everybody. It is true of all the masters that I know. Everyone of them that is advanced (master level) in multiple fighting games and has also reached advanced play in VF, deems VF as the best game (every single one of them).

I consider myself borderline intermediate in several fighting games and even I can see this.

(However impossible!) Wouldn't it be nice if they could make a SFIV vs Tekken vs MK vs SCIV vs VF so that we could test the theory /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just saying, that's what Sega's attitude is, and has always been. Hell, Microsoft had to pay them off just to get us online play.

But before we jump to chastising them for this, we must ask ourselves what is more important? That VF has the best fighting system out of any game in the world, or that it includes a bunch of flashy extras and has a fighting system that panders to the mainstream console audience? I think that if you look at it this way, Sega's priorities are in the right place.

 

I think what we *really* should look at is: Why do we have to have either rock solid gameplay OR extras? I mean, most of the work is already done once the arcade version comes out. You can have a system that caters to the hardcore in it's higher levels, while making the entry levels more accessible.

A one million person capacity stadium with only one door will only get so many people inside. It doesn't matter how big or nice it is on the inside, if all people on the outside can see is a small, difficult to reach entrance.

 

Pretty much.

As a matter of fact it happens on SRK on the regular too, just talking down to all other fighting games that aren't SF.

This is the most recent one I've seen, and the discussion is centrally about tekken, but VF and 3d fighters in general are brought up in there:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=182215

 

Super Turbo? The speed of ST is so great that nearly all inputs become prohibitively difficult at a competitive play level. The reversal window is one frame. If you are playing a charge character and you get knocked down you have fractions of a second to begin charging for a reversal and then you have 1/60 of a second to properly execute it. Take a look at this video from Super Battler Opera 2008. A player does three charge reversals in a row just to stay alive in the match. This is one of the highest levels of play in a match that I have ever seen in any fighting game. And it's of a 15-year-old game. ST is amazing. Man that clip is so incredible.

Third Strike also has very tough inputs. Parries, kara throws, kara anything really. But both of those games lack overall balance. There are some matches in ST and 3S that are ranked based on SBO, Mikado, X-mania etc. data that are 9-1 in favor of one character. That's hardly a competitive play field for all characters when you have some characters that have favorable odds against the entire cast and some with not a single match rated above 5-5.

I've never seen a tier list for VF where there are matches of 9-1. Is there a match up in VF5(or R) that is ranked worse than 6-4?

Exactly, the second that Sega starts shortening move lists, or removing difficult game mechanics, the game no longer is Virtua Fighter. It is Virtua Fighter Light.

Things like making players able to a throw escape by holding P+G and a direction is a good thing, it allows beginners or casual player to TEG easily, and the system still allows competitive players to furiously hammer the controls for ETTEG. Anything that helps noobs but doesn't prohibit competitors is a good thing...

Where is fails is things like SF4's easy (aka retard) commands or shortcuts. Shortcuts allow moves like an SRK motion to be done with df,df instead. The problem is that it rewards scrubs for being lazy. But when a competitive player goes to perform a non-SRK special move, the game recognizes the shortcuts, and gives him an SRK instead. Sirlin complained about this on his blog saying that making the moves easier actually made them harder which defeats the purpose of shortcuts.

Sirlin though did the same thing with HDR. In ST, Zangief's jump is 5 frames, THawk's is 3 frames, meaning you have 5 or 3 frames to press a button to get an empty command throw before your character will jump instead. So Sirlin, to appeal to scrubs, made the throw commands HCF,B or HCB,F. Because apparently scrubs can't handle a 3 frame input window for a walk up throw with THawk even though people have been playing him that way a decade. He also included the old command for the normal throw though so no one complained that much. But...Sirlin changed their super commands from 720 to HCBx2,F or HCFx2,B....and left out the old 720 commands. While the new commands for the SUPER throws allows for empty or walk up SUPER throws (something scrubs always wanted)...the inputs have harder execution in every other situation. And also the new motions introduced are bugged in that Hawk will get a dragon punch instead of a 720 the majority of the time you attempt a SUPER.

Sega has things like easy combos for launchers or crumples. Combos that work in both stances or on all characters. But if you want to be competitive you can graduate to stance specific, character specific, or combos with one frame dash or CD delays or buffers in them.

Hmmm, I feel I'm rambling as I got no sleep last night, I'll update this post after work today with actual concise thoughts.

 

Because Sega sees VF as an arcade game, and a cornerstone of their arcade business, and they really don't want to put all their effort into a console version of VF that makes the arcade version obsolete. When you ask the question, "Why doesn't Sega do this?", you must first make sure the answer isn't "Because it doesn't help, or may potentially hurt the arcade business". You don't have to like it, but that is Sega's position, and it's unlikely to change. Even if Sega feels they could potentially expand the VF audience by focusing on console extras, they will not do anything that they feel may marginalize VF in the arcades. Period.