That's missing the point and ignoring the conversation that we should have (whether if it's in silly games, or discussing systems/power dynamics/philosophies).

So let's start off where this misunderstanding started in this thread.

I'd say just framing the issue of the game being imbalanced due to a lack of tools is reductive and is the terminology that now two people are hung up on. But I can understand from the position as a poster that it requires a lot of time to lay out arguments and not everyone wants to write up a wall of text, compared to just keeping it short and simple. And in many cases this is sufficient.

But to frame a bigger picture analysis of the whole game and all of its systems: the interplay between characters, the needed situation awareness, blah blah blah, all to just an argument about whether or not a character has X but lacks Y tool is spurious. And I know know enough about Tricky that he isn't making that argument, there is a lot of subtext to what he wrote.

It's not just about the tools, it's the tools and how they complement each other, how they relate to your opponent's character (including the risk to reward), factoring in spacing, foot stance, ring positioning, character's weight/hitbox... the entire game's system.

Example: Akira and Goh's . Surface level they're practically the same attack (AK's is -7, 45 Total, GO is -9, 49 Total, their hitboxes are mostly the same(?)) and the differences aren't super big. But unless we're playing like Eternal Hunter ranks, we're not using attacks isolation. Looking at the big picture (and comparing apples to apples) Akira's is much stronger because it sets up way more scary shit. If they can't struggle fast enough you can at the very least get combo, if they can block it it's +1 which complements his 13 frame elbow with super good frames, but if you know they can struggle and block, you have a 13 frame tool that beats guard and yutori.

We can get into a long, circular discussion like:
"The opponent can always respond with X if you do Y"
"So then I can do Z instead."
"But then I can do..."

But that's getting lost in the weeds and getting distracted be every pebble and animal turd instead of looking up at the mountains, rivers, ecosystem (and to carry the analogy further) and how everything plays off of each other.

Example of being stuck in the weeds. If a technique, especially as delayable and mind-game filled as , can illict a "cure all" technique and make a trained opponent do a brain hacked ECD: you're still forcing them to play by the rules that sets up, and all the tools that compliment it.

That's like saying "Jean's can be evaded and it's -8. No big deal." It's missing the bigger picture.

To reiterate (now the 3rd time in this post, lol), while we can make comparisons between individual tools: this misses the point. The discussion is what tools a character has, how they interplay with each other, the tools and context of tools the opponent has, spacing, ring position, foot stance, character weight, etc.

That's a non-sequitur. But, it does help. lol Especially if it complements everything else they have.

Meh.

Edit: Also since this thread is now just about tiers (and not some potential game that will probably just disappoint) for the last several post, can a mod just cut and paste all these recent posts into the correct thread?

If Virtua Fighter X e-sports is truly serious about competing in an e-sports space with Tekken 7 or SC 6, or DOA 6 it will have to make very serious additions to VF's training mode.

Currently Virtua Fighter Final Showdown has the weakest Dojo/Training mode in comparison to Tekken 7's practice mode or SC 6's training mode. Virtua Fighter has a very minimal command training, and very minimal free training. Its extraordinarily flimsy in comparison to Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur 6's power house full featured training modes.

Virtua Fighter's DOJO is by far its weakest area and is one of the reasons that contributes to its small player base.

Even the most rudimentary features are missing from VF's Dojo. Every other 3D fighter's command list or move list include command animations/demonstrations of each and every move. Virtua Fighter had full command list demonstrations at one point, but dropped them. VF5FS has a few demonstrations for some commands, but not for most. If you're a new comer and don't know what all of the moves look like when performed, you better be able to pull them off, because you won't see what they look like in dojo mode. Also if you aren't sure whether you want to put in the time to pull off a move but want to see it first, good luck no more full command list animation/demonstrations. That's such a basic feature, how could VF not have it.

The screen graphic indicators in VF5FS Dojo also are not fully explained any where in the game. For example:

While in Dojo mode you can see a:

• Red Counter Hit Graphic

• Blue Counter Hit Graphic

• Yellow Counter Hit Graphic

Well, its clear your character has just performed a Counter Hit, but what's the difference between a Red, Blue, or Yellow counter hit? This is not explained in the game, or at least I've never bumped into it. Maybe Sega/AM2 didn't have a budget for a full featured practice/training mode, but if Virtua Fighter X e-sports is really trying to compete in the e-sports arena it will have to seriously overhall the Dojo

And I won't even start on the lack of CPU setup, or scenario setup. VF5FS is extremely deficient in this area. When I compare CPU/Dummy setup options in SC6 or Tekken 7 to what's in VF5FS I'm literally embarrassed to bring up VF's Dojo

I think Virtua Fighter X e-sports should have:

• Offline and Online Tournament Mode

• Offline and Online Team Battle Mode

• Offline Survival Mode

But if AM2 can't add any new modes, at the very least they need to give some very serious attention to the Dojo Mode

@Sebo you totally get it man and glad you saw the subtext for sho. I'm glad you expanded on it for me.

To add, I see the game as a series of problems to be solved within the context of the matchup and system mechanics. I look for as many ways to solve the same given problem so it's harder to read what I'll do or how I'll answer a given problem. The problem is broadly defined as anything that's leading to me not winning an exchange or set. Some characters get many ways to answer the same problem while also answering many other problems at the same time. All answers also aren't equal, some answers are better than others. I'd say what makes for strong characters is they on average have better answers than other characters.

I hope VF x Esports keeps improving balance along with this solution-based model. I think they're already achieving that with the current VF, and it can still be even further improved.

Arcade closing down, so esport version need to fill the void. Basically an online version of vf5 fs that will be released on next generation consoles, and possibly also on pc.

I hope the netcodes improves. Would be great if the different continents could play each other with respectable connection

We're not comparing apples to apples here though, Goh and Akira are completely different characters and despite the input and animation of those two moves they have no need to be identical on paper.

Apart from Akira's elbow being 1 frame faster and his guard break, they have pretty much the same options after a shoulder ram hit.

Standing palm was + on block before Goh was even in the game.

I'm talking about ECD after 4p+k is blocked in case it wasn't obvious. Stops a lot of Taka's bullshit mixups in that situation, I wouldn't recommend using it all the time that much should be obvious but it is what defensive techniques are designed for.

No, ECD after a blocked mid that can be hit confirmed into a launcher/mixups is not the same as evading a move like Jeans 66p.

I'd be making a pretty blank statement if I was saying X move can be evaded wouldn't I? That's only like 99% of the movelist

Glad you catch on.

Just irks me when people say some characters have better options than others. It'd be a pretty dull game if all 19 characters had the exact same options and tools. There's band to be imbalance when we're dealing with movesets that are so varied. In this regard I think FS is one of the most balanced fighting games there is.

How come no one was saying Eileen doesn't have as strong answers as other characters in vanilla VF5?

We're just talking over each other, literally talking about two separate things.

Depends when we're talking, because Eileen was strong in the first iterations of VF5, but we're also talking about a lot of very different elements one had to deal with within the game system. We're talking about throw clash (where quickly jumping/crouching attacks could be used during reverse nitaku... oh, hi Eileen), zero frame throws, different hitboxes for characters, the frames for things on guard/hit were different, MTE, OM attacks, DM attacks, really dumb punch inashis, 10/11/12 frame jabs, different walking speeds, no back dash staggers/side guard situations, pokes doing a higher ratio of damage due to the shorter life bars, etc.

But, again, like above, you're stuck on tools instead of talking about systems and how there is feed back with the tools (many, if not all, of which were deliberate design choices).

Hmmm.. Sega Joins Global E-sports Federation

https://www.esportstalk.com/news/capcom-konami-and-sega-join-global-esports-federation/

I dunno, will Virtua Fighter X e-sports be any more successful in e-sports than DOA 6 was?

But I guess DOA 6 might have done better if it weren't for all the Loli controversies..

Are you really comparing future VF to DoA6 ?
Come on , VF will be massive in Japan. VF was E sport even before E sport was a thing.
SEGA knows that and want to capitalize on it.

Now game centers and pachinko are in trouble they dont have a choice to do like Capcom. And finally put the money on their IPs.

Dude., I hope you're right. VF is superior to DOA in every way. Because I've never been in Japan, I don't know how popular DOA is in Japan. DOA does have a similar aesthetic to VF, and it doesn't seem that DOA is all that successful as a e-sports game. Yes Sega was doing e-sports b4 e-sports was a thing. But gaming has changed so much since back then.

Fighting games used to require a lot more skill than they do today. Lot of things have been watered down for e-sports. But I hope you're right

Alot of people seem to forget that. People nowadays think that Sony and Tekken created esports. When in reality for fighting games, Street Fighter 2 World Warrior, SF2 Championship Edition, and SF2 Hyper Fighting were doing that esports thing, long before there was ever a playstation console or a Tekken game. And it had it's great players, like the king of Street Fighter Tomo Ohira.

And then Virtua Fighter came along, and started the esports thing for 3d fighting games in the early 90's. And star players like bunbunmaru and others came along.

Wake UP SEGA. I Hope these CAPCOM leaks will give you ideas and push you to be ambitious and competitive.
Capcom is treading on your toes , doing better OLD Ip revivals better remakes (SEGA new policy after SEGA's survey for wahat old IPs fans would want Etc..)
Bringing back even old Fighter like Power Stone!
Making Minin consoles and retro Hardware.(new mini arcade coming..)
Calling their new SFV Characters KAGE and AKIRA aaarrrrgh!

It's clearly provocation! lol

Yeah, I like your comment.

But concerning those leaks, we don't really know if those capcom leaks, are legit or fake. Or if capcom deliberately leaked that info, to hype their current fanbase, or get the old school fans they pissed off years ago, to trend and talk about it on twitter and social media etc. Whichever it is, it seems to be working in capcoms favour, since more people nowadays are talking about capcom than namco. However we look at it, it's a good psychological strategy, to get free advertising and hype for capcom. So yeah, maybe sega should take note.

Or maybe Ono turned into a ninja, and hired a ninja clan to leak that info, as a way to get back at capcom, for demoting him. "Take that capcom! Ninja Slice attack!! Grrrrrr!"

Yeah! A character named Kage, and then a character named Akira, from Rival Schools. I find that strange and a bit suspicious.

"restart"



https://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/ir/library/pdf/stockholder/2021/202103_2q_kabutsu_e_final.pdf

Still as vague as a simple google translate

Is restart a reboot ? Or relaunch of VF1 or 5FS ? If we take this literally then restart refers back to VF1 LOL...

I still think it's a new game/reboot.... But only time will tell.

It says, “Information will be released from time to time.” Maybe it’s a great idea to just play the current vf, support your local vf scene, and be patient?

What is Segas latest arcade board? I mean I'm guessing this will be a new VF, I'm not expecting them to just present VF5FS but in 4K.

Whoa... Vf esports?! I missed vf and the people on here... can't wait to see what this is all about.