@SSfox I get where you're at.

But if we're really being honest here there are a couple of points to be made.

The random viewer would have no idea what purple meant versus red, blue or yellow. That color scheme and its semantics and how it applies is insider baseball. I've heard it several times and I still can't keep it straight. And I'm somewhat more than a random viewer.

Secondly EA's Ultimate Fighting Championship is a modern martial arts fighting game where the movelists, choices for offence and defense are far more complex than anything VF or Tekken does, and the UFC games don't have hit sparks to inform the random viewer whats going on. Anyone neophyte or not can just look at the match and have some idea what just happened. In VF and Tekken the life bar lets random viewers know whose winning at any given moment. And the two players that are actually participating in the game (unless they are absolute noobs), have spent time in the dojo , and are already familiar with throws, hits, and counter hits and the basics of a matchup. So the Hit Sparks are unnecessary for either noobs or the average (non esports) player.

I do see how the hit sparks help advanced and esports players that are looking for any and every piece of information they can to yomi the nuance of a match. But to the average player and noob those colors aren't information, they're just Hit Sparks, Eye Candy and an attempt to create excitement.

The UFC modern martial arts combat simulator games have plenty of onscreen indicators to let players know whats going on, and those games use genuine animations and sound effects to communicate damage and impact to the random viewer and everyone else.



@akai Yes the hit sparks do look like they were adapted from Judgment. Judgment runs on the Dragon engine, and now Virtua Fighter runs on the Dragon engine, so of course one could see how the hit sparks might be related between VF and Judgment. But seeing that Seiji Aoki is involved in both games, one cannot help but wonder, whether the Hit Sparks that he put in Judgement were originally influenced by the Hit Sparks that he enjoys from Tekken. You see how the transitive property applies here right

@akai, Aoki was part of the AM2 from back in the day. There were no hit sparks in VF (back then) . He moves on to RGG and he is able to design Judgement with Hit Sparks. I think the sparks he put in Judgement were originally inspired by the sparks in Tekken. But I'm not sure., the inspiration may have come from SF. I'll take your word for it because I don't play SF. I do play Tekken and the Hit Sparks in VF5US look like the Dragon Engine version of Tekken Hit Sparks.

@akai One thing is for sure that Heihachi skin, and Kayuza skin, ain't coming from SF. That's Tekken 7 paraphernalia So when you add the VF5US x Tekken 7 themes, together with the SF inspired Hit Sparks you end up with a game that no longer has the legendary VF presentation

@Dragonps the way to resolve this, is just to have someone ask Seiji Aoki WTF he was thinking when he added Tekken Style or SF style Hit Sparks to Virtua Fighter

Master, you act like hit sparks are the worst thing that could happen to VF. You mention a lot about the hit sparks, but you leave outside of the conversation the most valuable asset VF has: it's fighting system. Aoki's team respected the work AM2 has done and they didn't change anything. In fact, they all agreed that if the choose to change or add something it would best to do it on a new installment rather on the old game itself. VF is one of the best 3D fgs, and nothing can change that.

Also, you keep mentioning how hit sparks are a threat to the VF series, but you keep comparing VF to games that belong to different genres. Gameplay wise, how can you compare Sifu to VF? How can you compare VF to UFC? I guess you don't like the core mechanics of VF, because SEGA's game is very different to the aforementioned games

For the first time in many, many years there is one team at SEGA that want VF, back. And that is very important.

Agreed. I do think they respected the work. Agreed I am truly grateful that for the first time in many many years there is one team at SEGA that wants VF back. Agreed man.

I bring up SIFU and EA, THQ's UFC because these games are best in their class, like VF is the best in its class. I'm comparing these games because they have achieved excellence as a kind of fighting game. I realize SIFU is a beat'em up; I realize that the UFC games are martial arts simulation games. But those games have a similar challenge for noobs, casuals and advanced players as VF. Although different kinds of fighting games, all three games VF, SIFU and UFC have deep fighting engines, challenging move sets, an extensive set of offensive and defensive mechanics. They each involve a presentation of martial arts in their own way. VF is my favorite 3D arcade fighter and the core mechanics rock.. Sifu now is my favorite one -against -many martial arts game. UFC is my favorite martial arts combat sports game. But they all have to communicate what is going on to the audience. They each had to find a way to make the game easy for noobs to play but satisfying for advanced players as well. So in this respect they all have the same challenges and much in common.

I bring up UFC in this instance because it is able to do so with a much more advanced movelist than VF. It has considerably more defensive and offensive possibilities than an arcade fighter such as VF or Tekken. And it did not have to use hit sparks to communicate to the players or the audience as to what is happening in the match at any time.

Some players think that Hit Sparks are the only way to communicate side turned counter hits. I offer other fighting game genres as examples of how it could be done differently and more effectively.

NO Hits sparks are not the worse thing to happen to VF. But it could be the beginning of the worse thing to happen to VF. Next we could get Tekken Skins, and a Tekken UI as DLC. After that we could get a DLC that adds Tekken style rage drive and rage art. And then for VF6 we could see changes to the game engine. i.e. simplifying movelists, simplifying throw escapes, streamlining the rosters.etc. No Hit Sparks don't necessarily lead to all of this, but... I would have never thought that I'd see Blue and Purple hit sparks in VF now they are in VF5US. I would have never thought I would see Heihachi, or Kayuza skins in VF, now they're scheduled as DLC. for VF5US. Will RGG stop at Heihachi, or Jin skins? Or will we get Rodger, Kuma, and Panda skins in VF as well

A lot of players feel that those cosmetic changes don't make a difference as long as rock, paper, scissors, balance, and basic roster is in place its all good. But I have a different opinion. To me if it know longer looks like Virtua Fighter, its not Virtua Fighter (even if the mechanics stay the same)

Because of VF's realism it has always been more of a martial arts simulator than Tekken. And because of its juggling its always been less than a pure martial arts combat simulator compared to EA's UFC. Virtua Fighter has always been somewhere in the middle. And if in 2024 it has to make a choice of whether to become more Tekken like or more UFC like, Virtua Fighter would be better served and have a much more receptive audience with the martial arts combat sports crowd. The UFC games sell in the 10's of millions not only because of the UFC IP, but because the authentic presentation of Muay Thai, Boxing, Karate, Judo, Taekwon do, Kickboxing, Wrestling, and BJJ in a video game format. Virtua Fighter has some pretty convincing Kickboxing, Karate, Judo, Taekwon do, Wrestling, and Lucha Libre animations. Virtua Fighter could easily fit in with the martial arts sports audience without changing the game engine at all. A few minor adjustments to the visual presentation and it would be a big hit and instantly have a community 100 times the size of the community it has now. In fact to fit in with the UFC crowd VF would have to change less than Aoki has already changed it by adding Tekken Style Hit sparks

VF is a unique arcade fighting game. Something more than a DOA and Tekken, but not quite as authentic as a UFC game. If it is going to really grow and thrive in 2024 and beyond it needs to leave the Tekken and DOA dwindling crowds behind and take its rightful place as a martial arts combat simulator game as Yu Suzuki originally envisioned it.

VF5US x Tekken 7 is Persona Non Grata

No they sell millions because it's UFC, probably the most televised and popular combative sport next to boxing. Similar to how FIFA sells millions because it's (arguably) the worlds most popular sport. I doubt people that buy UFC games are doing it for the realistic depictions of the martial arts.

If that was the case there's a plethora of contests involving Karate, Wrestling, Kickboxing that get nowhere near the number of viewers and some of those aren't even televised. Guess what, no one is rushing out to purchase "Karate simulator extra Shotokan edition"

Are you absolutely kidding me? Tekken 7 has sold 8 million copies worldwide...8 million. How in the world of VF is 8 million dwindling? Virtua Fighters ENTIRE sales figures sit at around 5.5 million...Let that sink in.

That's LESS than the total of Tekken 7 on it's own.

He spoke about wanting realism but knowing fans may not be happy with it. His alternative was to make it "cinematic" You should know this Po as you were the one who posted that interview.

Suzuki not being involved didn't hurt the franchise at all, in fact VF5 and it's revisions seem to have done really well and were quite popular for the most part.

Honestly you need to give this a break, all fighting games have evolved at some point or another. Different systems or art styles have been used countless times, why is VF so special that it has to remain the same?

Why can't VF have some artistic changes?

Look at SF4, everyone and their mother hated the art style at first but then over time they appreciated it and even loved it.

We're all here because we love VF but just like our children we have to let them grow and change. I know that sounds cringe as hell but I'm trying to get the point across that the series has to grow and change.

Jackie Chan called it "contact powder" I've heard other fighters refer to it as "pow powder" It's actually a really good idea and one I'd love to see implemented.

You have to understand the difference in scope here. That 8 million copies is a number that a Titan such as Tekken was only able to reach after 4 years. Contrast that to Sifu from a small indie company that has sold over million copies in less than 2 months. or THQ's UFC game that sold 14 million in less than a year for a new UFC concept game. The fact that Bandai Namco took 4 years to eventually get to 8 million in sales for a Tekken a franchise that has been around for over 25 years is nothing to brag about.

You also underestimate the public's fundamental interest in martial arts in general. There is a reason why Cobra Kai became one of Netflix's most popular series. There is a reason why IP man has successful TV series, several trilogy movies made and countless clone movies. There was a reason why Kung Fu the tv series was made and re-made and was very popular. There is a reason why Bruce Lee is a hero, legend. There is a reason why Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Steven Segal,, Michelle Yeoh, Jim Kelly,, Zhang Ziyi etc, are popular, stars, heroes, and legends

This popularity did not depend on the popularity the UFC or on UFC being the most televised and popular combative sport. There is a reason why all of the Kung Fu movies of the 70's, 80's, 90's etc are so beloved. People like watching martial arts in all forms. In general people have a fascination with martial arts ass kicking. Prior to the 2000's lots of martial arts had a great deal of fantasy, flying, floating, magical chi, etc and people enjoyed it. Tekken, SF, Virtua Fighter, MK, etc, were originally released in this era. But from 2000 on, Martial arts movies, martial art pop culture etc, have been steadily moving towards more and more realism. This is why UFC is so popular. Because the Ultimate Fighting Championship fights show martial arts in their most realistic form.

@Dragonps the reason why Mixed Martial Arts rose to popularity in the first place, K1-Grand Prix, Pride, Strike Force, UFC etc is because there was a shift away from fantasy based martial arts presentation and toward more realistic interpretations and presentation of martial arts.

In 2022 The public has trended away from Martial Arts Fantasy and more toward Martial Arts Fiction. Fireballs, Flying, Floating, are no longer the popular way to present martial arts. The more realistic the better. Too much fantasy and it bombs.

The reason's why SIFU (from a small indie developer) is so popular and hit over a million in sales in less than 3 months is because people like the martial arts and kung fu ass kicking. And in 2022 the more realistic the martial arts action the better. This is why the UFC games are so popular. Its not popular just because its UFC. Its popular because the Ultimate Fighting Championships presents Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Kick Boxing, Karate, and Boxing in its most realistic form Virtua Fighter is the most realistic out of all of the arcade fighting games. Future versions of Virtua Fighter should be more realistic not less.

In 2022 the visceral and realistic martial arts combat in the UFC games and in Sifu is what causes these games to sell so many copies and be so popular. For the last 2 decades, martial arts in movies, and pop culture have been getting more and more realistic. In contrast many arcade fighting games have been getting more and more fantasy based. This is one of the reasons why the 2D and 3D arcade fighting games have dwindling(in comparison to other fighting genres) fan bases and communities. Flying, floating, fantasy in martial arts is all but dead, and realism in martial arts in games is on the rise.

Virtua Fighter 6 would be better served to chase realism and not fantasy. Virtua Fighter 6 would be better served to leave the old school fantasy based arcade martial arts behind, and move more toward a realistic martial arts combat game.

The combo floating, flying, fireball launching, hit spark generating moves in current Arcade games are a hold over from the early 90's. From a time when martial arts and kung fu fantasy was looked upon favorably by the public. But the majority of the public has moved on. In 2022 martial arts realism is the favorable thing in pop culture , in sports, in movies, and in video games.

Yes VF6 should definitely have some artistic changes. Those artistic changes should move toward more realism rather than less. IMO VF6 should not touch the fighting engine. VF6 should not touch the game balance. VF6 should leave the roster intact. VF6 should leave 99.9% of the move lists intact. However VF6 should change its animations:

All floating animations should be changed to either staggers, stumbles, falls, crunches, turns, or stuns. Hit sparks should be removed. These simple changes alone would modernize Virtua Fighter and make it far more attractive to a 2022 audience and more indicative of the realism that the majority of today's public prefers without changing game play at all.

Keep in mind that 8 millions of Tekken 7 sold is bigger than 8 millions copies of Tekken with no DLC sold, it's probably around 12 to 15 millions equivalent of game with no DLC sold.

No the point was that it outsold THE ENTIRE LIBRARY of VF games.

On. It's. Own.

The fact Tekken as a series has sold over 50 million copies IS something to brag about.

Because it was based in the same universe as a beloved movie from the past. Fans had wanted a true sequel for a long time and the series filled that void.

"Successful" Give over, it only lasted one season and was made to capitalize on the success of the first two Ip man Movies. The Ip man movies were popular because of the association with Bruce Lee. The movies were completely fictional with unrealistic OTT action mixed with more grounded realistic techniques.

Oh boy ok here we go. The series was made to capitalize on the public's growing interest in Chinese Gung Fu. Up to that point they'd only really been exposed to Japanese martial arts such as Karate, Akido or Judo. The idea behind the TV series was to show the west Chinese culture.

The west had never really seen anything like that before, it was a love that didn't last very long.

There are literally a hundred and one different reasons for this. A hero to many because in his movies he was standing by his Chinese brothers whilst beating the Japanese or westerners. A legend because he died before his time.

Wrong, martial arts movies especially from the 50's 60's were all about magical characters flying around doing crazy things. Monkey is a great example of this if a rather late one. It wasn't until the Bruce Lee movies of the 70's that martial arts films began to become more realistic. Even then it didn't last as after his death they went back to doing them in the old ways.

The magical silly OTT Gung Fu movies made a comeback with films such as Crouching Tiger or House of Flying Daggers.

No they absolutely haven't, Tekken, Soul Calibur, DOA, SF, MK have all become even more fantastical. Look at any Arc System Works fighter and you'll get it.

Really? Then tell me why Tekken and Mortal Kombat are two of the biggest fighting games of all time?

The top 5 biggest selling fighting games are:

Mortal kombat
Smash Bros
Tekken
Street Fighter
Soul Calibur

VF is 6th and there's no mention of UFC. Now tell me people want realism.

Even though the biggest selling fighting games are full of fantasy and fiction?

You're so detached from what gamers really want.

Ahh, I see ( I think). Your post raises several questions for me.

@Dragonps do you believe that fighting games sell just as many copies as FPS, Third Person Shooters, Action/Adventure games, Role Playing Games, or Sports Games?

If you believe they sell more copies than those other genres, why do you believe they sell more?

If you believe they sell less copies than those other genres, why do you believe they sell less?

If you believe they sell about the same as those other genres, do you believe we should credit the fact that they're fantasy based to their success?

Are you aware that the Playstation store has removed the "Fighting Game Category" from its main store categories?

Do you believe that the following statement is true:

The "Fighting Game" Category is one of the smallest (if not the smallest) video game categories in terms of copies sold and the size of active player bases and that among the people who still play the old "arcade style" fighting games, those people continue to enjoy the fantasy based martial arts

Do you believe the following statement is true:

80% of people playing arcade style (fantasy based) fighting games were born before 2003.

Do you believe the following statement is true:

The combined regularly active player base for the following games will be larger in 2030 than it is today.

• Mortal kombat

• Smash Bros

• Tekken

• Street Fighter

• Soul Calibur

Do you believe the following statement is true:

The Virtua Fighter series is just as fantasy based as:

• Mortal kombat

• Smash Bros

• Tekken

• Street Fighter

• Soul Calibur

I ask you these questions because you stated that I am detached from what gamers really want.

So presumably, you do know what gamers really want. So I'm curious how you, and the gamers like you see arcade style fighting games and what you and those players who think like you believe about where arcade style (fantasy based) fighting games fit within the current video game space and where that category of (fantasy based) fighting games will be in the next 8 years. Do you see it growing, staying more or less the same, or getting smaller

I know you're not talking to me, but remember that VF features a bright blue ninja who can throw people ten feet straight up into the air, three brainwashed assassins, and a liquid metal woman who can be fought both at the top of an exploding volcano and at the bottom of the sea.

I think VF stands out because it has sprinkles of realism. It's always been the connoisseurs choice (for lack of a better term)

I don't think it would benefit the series going to super realism.

This is what I'm saying, VF has sprinkles of reality but it's fantasy for the most part.

@masterpo If you believe gamers want fighting games to move more towards realism then yes you are detached. They clearly DON'T want that, if they did then why doesn't UFC sell the numbers that Tekken, MK or SF does? In fact why is there no "fighting simulator" game and why has it not sold millions?

Gaming (for the most part) has primarily been about fantasy. VF can be fantastical and have a dash of realism.

This is the last time I'm going to say this I refuse to respond to you any more, gamers want fantasy with a sprinkle of realism.

Going back to the topic does anyone know if costume E is included in the pack?

I don't think VF's issue to find success is it's realism, but i think it just always lacked some core aspects to appeal to core audiences.

GTA and Red Dead are very much realistic to their topic and both are super successful, with VF they always been too core gameplay and mechanics focused , which is great for the super hardcore fans, but not much to the big casuals, most people that bought and love mk don't know or care if the Scorpion tech is unsafe on block or Sonya has an infinite new combo, but they're horny to know what s next for the next chapter of story of those characters.

@Dragonps @Adam Gibson @SSfox


Thank you for the fascinating exchange

Cheers

Virtua Fighter is so realistic, its boring for the casual gamer to watch. If it doesn't catch their interest with SOMEthing visual, they aren't going to stick around long enough to learn it.

Dude, it all depends on which casual gamers you're referring to. There are gamers that literally hate the visuals of Tekken, Guilty Gear, KOF, etc and are drawn to the realism of Virtua Fighter. There are players noobs, casuals, advanced players on both sides of this opinion. Mortal Kombat fans would revolt if Mortal Kombat XII was anime graphics like Guilty Gear. Or less realistic than it is now. Clearly "boring" is a matter of opinion.

I'm in the group that find's Virtua Fighter presentation beautiful, exciting, enthralling, breath taking, astonishing, and refreshing. With the exception of the Hit Sparks recently added to VF5US Virtua Fighter is a visual master piece. A graphics Tour De Force.

@Lord_Hollow perhaps you've forgotten what forum you're on

For the casual's out there that find VF's visuals boring or the Virtua Fighter series dull, Please move on. Go find a game that is visually attractive and exciting to you, and post in that forum We don't need or want your help, or opinions here

I think I understand what you're trying to express but the same thing could easily be said about people who ------I don't know, let's pick something totally at random------ don't like hit sparks and competitive play for example. I would prefer the VF community to be as large as possible, even if it includes some opinions that I don't personally agree with so please let's not engage in gatekeeping.

Casual or hardcore so long as the community is thriving and positive that's all that really matters. Plenty of opinions I don't agree with but I kinda see the community as a family and I rarely agree with family

Were're NOT talking about UFC to be THE standard. VF is an arcade game. WE ALL KNOW THAT..! Moves are faster and you have tu put emphasis on the action. like a LIVE ACTION Kung FU MOVIE! THIS KIND OF REALISTIC(ISH) APPROACH. NOT Sreet fighter/Tekken CARTOONISH APPROACH !
Just respect VF's DNA for god sake..!
One reason why masterpo is bringing these footage is because we don't exeperience anymore novelties from SEGA AM2 like back in the days. When Virtua Racing was the most realistic game Wen SEGA Rally was super realistic IN 1994..!!! When SEGA was so ahead of their times.
And VF always WAS with groundbreaking visuals AND EFFECTS!

Street Fighter/Tekken Hit sparks are not novelty, it's a HUGE step back.

Adding OUTDATED PS1 hit sparks is not the only SOLUTION ! Be CREATIVE SEGA!

No more Blue Purple Red yellow (even on normal hit ) NO MORE ugly effects when VF was CLEAN GORGEOUS!
The most ELEGANT fighting game becoming like all other average fighting games is concerning sorry

Especially for VF6 future