Is it at all possible that because I understood all of the statements to come from Harada that I could have come to my conclusion

So what was the complete statement about single player content that was made by Aoki

The unfortunate thing here is that my point about significant single player content being the foundation for a sustainable online community even needs proving.

There is a famous saying (that I tend to agree with) that goes something like this.

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Virtua Fighter is superior to all of the other 3D arcade fighting games. Yet it has the smallest active community of any of the 3D fighting games. I believe its the oldest of any of the 3D arcade fighting games, yet its the least popular of any of the 3D arcade fighting games. It has the best customization, its the most balanced, it has imo the most rational offensive and defensive options of any of the 3D arcade fighting games, but it has the least amount of sales than any of the big 3D arcade fighting games.

When many on VFDC are queried about the Virtua Fighter Superiority vs Popularity Paradox the explanations fall to bad net code, bad marketing on Sega's part, poor timing, yet there are many instances of other 3D arcade fighters that from time to time (possibly still ) having bad net code, or bad marketing or poor timing and they manage to still have more success than Virtua Fighter.

In the minds of many on VFDC Virtua Fighter's shortcomings with respect to sales and the size of the active online community is anything and everything but the lack of significant single player content. When the fact of the matter is, Tekken, Soul Caliber, DOA all have had bad netcode at one time, poor marketing at one time, poor timing at one time.

Interestingly enough one of the big things that they all have that VF5US doesn't have is story modes, and significant single player content But there are many folks in our VFDC community that just can't bring themselves to see that distinction

So when it comes to falsely extrapolating to make a point I suspect I'm not alone

Its never intentional though,

Good for Tekken fans who play VF, but why would Tekken fans play VF to begin with?

For me, this DLC is a bad joke. Talk about becoming your own worst enemy.

I disagree with this, surely a stable netcode and fun community is the foundation? I would agree that single player content will keep casual players coming back but would they transition to online?

The actual number of FG players who continue to play online (even though their skill is not great) is pretty small.

Many people dislike playing online only to lose all the time.

I myself am an avid racing fan but I suck at racing games, I've not played a racing game online for years. The single player content keeps me coming back certainly, but not to play online.

I mean this is a quote from Sherlock Holmes a fictional character, and it was in relation to crimes so...

@Dragonps

Of course you disagree Its classic cognitive dissonance, and currently there is debate as to whether cognitive dissonance should be added to DSM-5. But lets try to work through it. I don't mind being trolled. I often use the troll as a sparring partner and a chance to exercise my repartee. So @Dragonps I'll amuse you. I'm curious about your capacity for reason. So I'll throw out a few propositions and see how you deal with them.

I'll keep my propositions specific to the Virtua Fighter series and VFDC.

Fact 1:

The majority of active high level VF players on VFDC got gude at the the game playing VF3tb, VF4, VF4EVO, and VF5. VF3tb, VF4, VF4EVO had no online at all. And only VF5 on the Xbox had a bare bones online feature. VF5 on the PS3 to date still has no online.

Fact 2:

Each of these versions VF3tb, VF4, VF4EVO and VF5 had significant single player content for players to use, experiment, practice and to get gude at the game. Although there were offline tourneys and gatherings for these games, outside of Japan the offline communities both in size and quantity were meager. There simply was not enough offline regular, active competition to account for the base line skills of the majority of players that are now currently active on VFDC. assertion: Single player content (e.g. Kumite Mode, Quest Mode, Underground Tournament Mode, the Event Square Mode, Tutorial Mode, Dojo Mode) account for the base line skill sets of the majority of active players on VFDC.


Hypothesis

If VF3tb, VF4, VF4EVO and VF5 had no single player content and only a VS mode , the active online community for VF5US would be drastically smaller than it is now and the VF skill sets that are so adeptly executed online in VF5US would be anemic (at best) in comparison to what we see today


Note:

Our ability as humans to process the relationship between cause and effect and then to proceed in a non-montonic fashion to adjust our epistemic view of the world is central to our notion of intelligence. Its non sequitur for all those players that have the skill they have in which VF single player content is clearly the progenitor; to in 2022 advance the proposition that netcode and online mode only are the prima facie reasons for Virtua Fighter's success or failure.

@Dragonps exactly what are your premises for this conjecture and can you elaborate on your inference process I can't help but wonder is your position simply a result of uninformed dogma or did you arrive at your position through some other empirical means that escapes plain view

Further, with respect to this thread do you believe that virtua-fighter-x-tekken customization will:

• improve the VF5US online user experience
• have a negative effect on the VF5US online user experience
• have no effect on the VF5US online user experience

If RGG/Sega was going to add skins from another 3D arcade fighting game, why not continue the relationship with DOA. The DOA UI/UX is more indicative to the VF UI/UX (User Interface, User Experience). Tekken is closer to Street Fighter, and DOA is closer to Virtua Fighter.


@Dragonps Now all that remains is to establish whether you have the testicular fortitude to address this neo-quasi-post-modernistic Will Smith slap

I think all of those fans who left, and those who remained, all wish for this to happen. That is like the biggest wish for all of us.

In relation to my post I don't think you've grasped what that term actually means but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your disregard for online is ever apparent, that is how things used to be but times have changed and you're going to be left in the past if you don't catch up.

Also if you're going to state "facts" then you need to cite evidence, otherwise it's unsubstantiated. I'm sure you'll eloquate the idea?

Take a look at the many top or professional players on social media and you'll see the first thing they mention is the online netcode. It's become increasingly important and many people simply won't bother trying the game without it.

I agree that single player content will help to sell the game and keep players coming back, but I disagree that the offline single player stuff will help to transition players to online. I don't see any evidence of this with other fighting games.

Simple because DOA6 sold like crap and had a tonne of bad press, KT stopped supporting the game after a year because things were going downhill so why would you want to associate yourself with them? Surely you would want to associate with another game, maybe one that has sold considerably more.

Maybe one that has had many years of support.

Maybe one that has a far better reputation (at the moment)

The crossover with DOA in 5 was fun certainly, but DOA needs to pick itself up and sort itself out before VF should collab with them again.

VF3TB on Dreamcast was a bare bones outsourced rush job port and came out over 2 years after the arcade release. This was a game that really wowed graphically when it first came out but by the time of the DC release it wasn't as stand out anymore and was quickly overshadowed. There was barely any single player content. Tekken 3 had really good single player content and I think SF3 also had a decent story mode for it's time.

@Dragonps I now totally understand where you are coming from.

A few last points.

I play VF online almost every day. My daughters, some nephews, some cousins, don't live in the state that I live in. My son has his own place now. They all are ardent fans of VF and fortunately VF has online features or else there are several family members and a few friends that I would not be able to play if there was no online in VF I could care less about the entire e-sports angle. I could care less about playing and competing online against strangers. But I play online with family and friends regularly.

@Dragonps Fortunately, I am free of FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) syndrome. (I was not always free, but I am now) The sad thing is that many many gamers, suffer from FOMO. and the companies that sell technology based goods and services exploit this human weakness in spectacular ways. Because we are both fond of Virtua Fighter and you are a fellow gamer I'm going to share a couple of links with you. You can take them or leave them. But they could help you and other gamers on VFDC in the long run and I post them out of genuine affinity with fellow gamers

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/mar.21406
https://www.onewithnow.com/left-behind/

In general I don't play video games to fit in, or feel relevant. I don't play games out of the( very real human need ) for social interaction. I don't play video games to validate my sense of self in the company of strangers. Many gamers play video games for these reasons. At one time, I did too. But not these days. I play games for the immersion, simulation experience, and escapism. The game could be decades old (e.g. pacman, tetris), hundreds of year old (e.g. chess) or a few months old (e.g. Sifu). In my day job I do AI research and software engineering, so I am particularly fascinated with AI and simulation in video games.

I do follow some musicians on social media. I follow fellow researchers, scientists , Linux techies, and a few sci-fi buffs. But I tend not give very time or attention to top video game players, or professional video game players. They just don't have much to offer my personal experience with video games. So the fact that the first thing they mention is online netcode has virtually no importance to me at all.

So you believe Virtua Fighter x Tekken 7 is the appropriate way to go is because Tekken 7 was a commercial success and DOA 6 wasn't So the notion of whether one game complements the other has nothing to do with it for you. So you believe since Tekken 7 was commercially successful , if VF includes Tekken 7 skins and a Tekken 7 UI it will bring new players to VF and cause the VF community to grow Do you think that it could be possible that if RGG/Sega mingles Tekken 7 with Virtua Fighter that we could lose players and then cause the VF community to get smaller? The fact DOA6 did not sell well does not detract from its success as a series or from the fact that the DOA series as a whole has more in common with the Virtua Fighter series as whole than VF and Tekken have with each other. Its far more likely to have legitimate cross play between the DOA community and the VF community because the two games share similar game play and presentation. If the goal is to ultimately sell more copies of VF and to increase those players willing to participate in VF e-sports, then cross play with the DOA community is far more practical. Yes the Tekken community is bigger, but high level (the e-sports dudes) realize that Tekken competitive play is very different from VF competitive play. Whereas high level DOA competitive play has more in common with VF high level competitive play. If RGG is doing Virtua Fighter x Tekken 7 simply because of Tekken 7's current popularity that would be a mistake.

@Dragonps I see your points. I understand why you have the positions you have. I'm not saying that your positions are not valid. I am saying that perhaps, you should do some introspection and self examination to determine if those are truly your positions, or if you are holding those positions because you perceive them to be the most popular and socially acceptable

If you play online a fair amount then netcode should be of paramount importance to you.

It's not important to you but it IS important to many, which is the whole point myself and others have been trying to make.

Well that and the fact that originally both VF and Tekken were supposedly meant to crossover. As a VF fan you'll know about the poster that featured Akira and Jin. Tekken X VF was teased long before a DOA collaboration, why would any fighter want to be associated with that game right now?

I've spent time in business and unlike you I can see things from a business perspective. This makes total sense IF you look at it from a business point of view.

As always Po it's been a pleasure nightmare to debate with you...

I understand my post are TLDR. But I've already acknowledged how important netcode is for other players. But I don't play online competitively. And when I do play online I don't care whether I win or lose. When I play family and friends its all in fun. I could care less about dropping a combo, or frame timing being off, or some button sequence not working the way it does when I'm offline.. When I do play online its more about the time I'm spending with family and friends that I can't see in person at the moment We all play the game for just fun, not to keep score on who beat who , how many times

I'm far more disappointed in the Purple, Red, Yellow, etc Hit Sparks than the lag that is caused by delay based netcode. I've already lost thousands and thousands of matches of VF in all kinds of contexts. I've already won thousands and thousands of matches in VF in all kinds of contexts. I have nothing to prove to anybody one way or the other. I understand for some players if they can't reliably pull off this move, or that combo, or the other evade then the game is no fun for them or even unplayable for some. But I've played matches with family and friends that had only one or two bars and it felt like we were playing under water, or in a magnetic field or something and it was a lot of fun. I was lagging, my opponent was lagging., lots of comedy. I've played matches where there was so much lag that parts of the rounds were freeze framing, and both characters were moving in slow motion Its a video game

Dude, I've played with connections so bad and with so much lag, that I've developed lag strategies, lag fighting techniques. lag look a-head maneuvers, lag button mashing. I have slow motion moves, and no motion moves. At this point I've mastered the art of lag surprise where nothing Fuc#king worx like it supposed to, so just throw out some random sh#t and see what sticks. and its all in fun. I can play VF fast, slow, at 30 fps, 20fps, 10fps and freeze framed. I've played with connections so bad that I had to discover what moves were even available during any particular lagged round in real time.


I understand that the Jedi Frame masters have studied frames and timing and spent so much time in the dojo lab, and have did all the calculations on what whiffs, what punishes, whose at how many frames of disadvantage and whats guaranteed and whats not so that if lag throws any of their calculations or expectations off they're having a bad day, and will quickly make excuses for the loss I understand that is why all the e-sport hopefuls get erections just talking about the possibility of rollback netcode. I really do understand how mission critical the netcode is for the consummate competitive types. Its just that I don't give a flying F#ck about online competitive play

@Dragonps If I could exchange one connection bar for the removal of one color hit spark, I 'd gladly play my family and friends with just one bar online in exchange for not seeing red, purple, and blue hit sparks. I would trade in 3 or 4 bars if I could get rid of 3 or 4 color hits sparks. I'd rather see VF played at 10 fps and no hits sparks than to see it with perfect rollback netcode and hit sparks.

When I'm not playing family or friends I'd rather play the AI. I get far more enjoyment playing the AI in quest mode, the underground tournaments, sparring mode, license mode and Kumite than playing try-hard strangers that have the gleam of e-sports in their eyes.

You mean that collaboration was teased before DOA first used the Virtua Fighter engine

Anyone that is remotely playing VF, DOA, and Tekken at high level knows that high level VF play is closer to high level DOA play, than it is to high level Tekken play. For casual or intermediates they might see more commonality, but the VF, DOA, & Tekken murders and killaz know the deal. At high levels Tekken is drastically different than VF a lot more different than VF is from DOA. And I'm just a mediocre player and I know that

Virtua Fighter x Tekken 7 is persona non grata and it will do nothing but make VF more of a laughing stock than adding the Hit Sparks did

So we'll have Tekken style Hit Sparks, Tekken Skins, A Tekken UI, and bad netcode to boot.

You have absolutely no evidence that the added hit sparks have damaged VF's reputation in any way. Downloads were high people are playing and Sega have stated the game will have at least a year of updates and content.

I honestly would like to see a poll from people here on vfdc and find a percentage of how many of them think VF is now "a laughing stock" because of added cosmetics.

Unless it's stated otherwise the Tekken skins and UI are purely CHOICE, there is nothing to suggest you will be forced to use them. Are you honestly going to complain about a choice?

@Dragonps

Interesting observation. But....Umm,...Tsk Tsk......reality shows something else.

For example:
Tekken 7 and Street Fighter 5 both have semi horrible netcode, lots of lag, and lots of delayed inputs. But yet for some strange reason, people who like those two games, people who hate those two games, people who complain about bad netcode and say, they will stay away from games with bad netcode, and make 1 to close to 2 hour fake rant videos on youtube about bad netcode, for some strange reason, are drawn to and will still play both Tekken 7 and SF5, and have over 1000 hours of gameplay, registered on their Playstation consoles, even though both games have not so good netcode, and even if both games suck.

So even with bad netcode, (or sucky gameplay or both), influencers and so called fgc gamers, would literally contradict themselves, and will still bother playing Tekken 7 and SF5, even if the netcode is bad.

There is so much silly contradiction in the so called modern day FGC. That's why when I listen to fgc influencers and hype men, I listen to them with a heavy grain of salt.

As for the topic of Tekken 7 costumes in VF5US, I am mixed over it, and believe that time could have been better spent, working on Virtua Fighter related dlc and VF related stuff, than costume dlc related to another fighting game. The whole thing, seems a bit like a cheap move, and expected to me.

When T7 and SFV were first released the whole "rollback netcode" movement hadn't really gained traction in comparison to now. In terms of new games players will be really picky about trying it unless it has rollback.

Having played plenty of T7 and SFV online I didn't find it to be that bad, certainly not bad enough to have missing inputs etc.

I'll agree I wanted to see the rest of the costumes and items released as free dlc, I was a bit peeved when they stuck them into the paid dlc.

I honestly don't blame Sega for the cross over stuff, they saw other fighters doing it and making profits from it so my guess is they thought "what the hell"

They've got other stuff planed which could include other Sega IP's or fighting game franchises.

To add a little bit to what @Dragonps said, Tekken hit consoles in 2017 and SFV in 2016, almost four full years before COVID-19 made rollback netcode a necessity in the minds of most western gamers. And apparently Japanese developers have come to agree because capcom's recent games *including SFV* have all used rollback netcode (SFV's implementation of rollback was very bad, but it's still rollback) and honestly I can't think of a single fighting game released within the last year without it - except for uh, VF, which only barely gets a pass because it was a free re-release of a ten year old title.

Having played a lot of Tekken 7 online I think the netcode is ok in general and can be really good at times. There's a lot of technical stuff and things you need to react to that I can actually do when the connection is good. Tekken also has a very small buffering window causing all sorts of other difficulties in timing. I think it's far better than VF5FS's netcode on PS3 which was always noticeably laggy.

SF5's seemed good but I didn't play it a lot and the matchmaking would sometimes pit you against people outside your continent where it would be terrible. Still a lot better than what SF4 was.

Namco have improved a lot from when they started with Tekken 5DR. Soul Calibur 5 on the PS3/360 was the huge breakthrough for them but they don't seem to have progressed any further since.