Virtual On thread: videos, discussion, etc

Discussion in 'General' started by neoKEN, May 11, 2011.

  1. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

    Chan, just so everybody don't get confused- the Virtual On sticks are the Saturn VOOM sticks, the Dreamcast VOOT sticks, the XBox 360 VOOT sticks (the Hori direct ones with the arcade hardware, hence the high price), and the XBox 360 VO4 sticks (exactly like the 360 VOOT sticks, but with the "4" logo in the middle.
    Chanchai likes this.
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    It is good to clarify ^_^

    Saturn VOOM Twinstick

    Dreamcast VOOT Twinstick

    UPDATE: Prototype Hori VOOT Twinstick for 360

    Hori VO4 Twinstick for 360

    And yeah, the layout for the VO4 stick is the same as the VOOT. Though the VOOT stick really looks like it uses an older HRAP model's case to me hehe.
    hseiken1 likes this.
  3. cobratron

    cobratron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    Chanchai I'm pretty sure 45° watari was not possible
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  4. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Yeah, like I said, memory is so hazy on that detail. And I do remember stair-stepping through fire patterns and not squiggling. But as I said, if I didn't hear confirmation of it before getting home (will be home in a few hours), I would just test and see. I really should just enjoy VOOT twinstick or not hehehe (and 360 double analog stick is still not twinstick :p even if one thinks of the shoulder triggers as replacing the buttons, my brain was just so stubborn it didn't want to adapt to this as much as I tried lol).

    Update Side Note: If I can play Fight Night with analog controls as much as I do, I should be able to play emulated Twinstick VOOT on 360 pad... Think I just need to give it a week... :( But I'll eventually play it again on Twinstick, of this I vow!
  5. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    BTW, how about that crazy button layout for ABYX? I mean YXBA! :p
  6. cobratron

    cobratron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    Haha I got my saturn stick modded before the release of 360 VOOT just so that I wouldnt be tempted to try (and get use to) the 360 dual analog config. I kept thinking what if I end up liking it and start to procrastinate on the mod job. o_O

    I think I may have tried it once and thought it was hard doing with ur thumbs what your used to doing with 2 arms. I'm sure with more practice it could have worked good. So is dual analog more prefered than d-pad movement for pad users? I knew a couple folks back in the day who used the Dreamcast controller with really good results.
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Looking forward to what others answer your question with.

    For me, for that short time I tried (I did not give it a fair chance), the hang up for my brain was something so little and simple... shifting from thumb/index to index/middle is what really screwed me up. But on top of that, yes, I felt I was responding slower with two thumbs as opposed to the subtle motions of wrist/hand/fingers/thumb when manipulating the twinsticks. Instead of clicking the micro-switches (twinstick), I'm working with analog "throw" where I am trying to approximate the minimal movement allowed to register a "click." And in VOOT, there's a lot of opening and closing motions, subtle stick shifts and sometimes even taps for rotations and what not. The twinsticks felt great to me because I felt like I was controlling all the microswitches.

    Again, looking forward to what others say. And I think I'm gonna load up VOOT tonight ^_____^
    cobratron likes this.
  8. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

    We need to clarify a bit more :)

    OK, here's the deal with the XBox 360 twin sticks... and it was a soap opera of whether or not Sega would actually offer it.

    The story starts with Sega initially offering a preorder for twin sticks for the 360. When enough preorders were received, production would commence:

    The initial prototype deisgn:

    Which became the Twin Stick EX (prototype):
    Nothe the difference in stick shape and stick distance compared to the initial prototype.

    Which was again redesigned to become the design we see in the production model. According to who got the info from the sticks were redesigned from input of product testers (probably VO heads). These testers probably asked the sticks be more durable, hence the use of arcade quality parts, according to reports. Whether or not they are the actual parts used on the actual arcade machines is another story, but I would not be surprised due the cost of these EX sticks and that gamers are now clamoring for actual arcade hardware.


    Hori XBox 360 VOOT Twin Stick webpage:

    With the release of VO Force (VO4), Sega again put out the ultimatum of a minimum preorder amount needed to make a reissue of the VOOT sticks (but with the Force logo), which obviously was reached.


    Hori XBox VO4 Twin Stick webpage:

    If you want the nitty gritty details... twin sticks

    BTW, if you consider yourself a fan, I'd pick up these sticks while you can... or if you can. These are out of production are a seller has some on eBay as we speak. Consider this an investment, as I am sure this will fetch much higher prices in the future due to it's limited production run and it's availability to only the Japanese market through Hori's Japanese webstore.
    ajs_, cobratron and Chanchai like this.
  9. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Catch-22's last post EPIC LIKED for COMPLETE INVESTIGATIVE AWESOMENESS!!!! ^_____^
  10. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

    More investigative reporting! Man, I feel like and amped up Geraldo today...

    Looks like Dangohead of Gamefan fame posted some VOOT strategies... curving dash, and watari dash, which I could not imagine while reading the previous posts would be too hard to do, but it's been a while since I played on DC, so I had to start digging...:

    Here's his entire VOOT strategy guide:

    NOW HERE'S HOW TO MENTALLY PREPARE YOURSELF FOR USING A PAD, and in this case, I'll refer to the Dreamcast pad. It's been years since I played, and totally forgot some stuff.

    Here is what the VOOT DC developers probably thought about the pad mapping:
    • Directional Pad: used for general 8-way movement while facing forward and would replicate pushing both Twin Sticks in the same direction.
    • Buttons: consider the diamond arrangement of the buttons as another directional pad, but only with the A and Y buttons. The Y button would be equivalent to UP, while the A button equivalent to DOWN. This makes sense as pressing the Y button makes the VR jump, and when pressed with the trigger buttons (left, center, or right) while in melee range, produces a "jumping melee attack" used to counter "sweeping melee attacks." The A button produces crouching or sliding actions when combined with the triggers (L/C/R weapons) or dash buttons. With the location of the buttons where they are, these crouching and sliding attacks with simultaneous button pressing are easily done.
    • Analog stick: used to replicate pushing TWIN STICKS in different directions. Though only Left or Right directions are used to face the VR in the corresponding direction. Using up or down with the analog stick replicates pressing the START button on the arcade machine.
    Here's what I found on what the Dreamcast Pad buttons replicated on the Twin Sticks:
    • A Button: Sticks Together
    • B Button: Right Turbo
    • X Button: Left Turbo
    • Y Button: Sticks Apart
    • Analog Up/Down: Start Button (for special attacks)
    • Analog Left: Left Stick down/Right Stick up
    • Analog Right: Left Stick up/Right Stick down
    • Direction pad: Sticks in same direction
    • Left Trigger: Same
    • Right Trigger: Same
    Refer to this for a more detailed info:
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    BLACKSTAR You'll find him on the grind Staff Member Content Manager Sarah Media Manager

    I use the Xbox analog sticks setup, with most of the necessary buttons on my triggers. Its nearly as good as having the VOOT sticks, right?

    Anyway, if anybody would like to play Xbox Live VOOT or have an Xbox party for VOOT, I'd definitely be down for it (even though I'm a n00b at it)
    Tricky and Chanchai like this.
  12. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    let me ping neoken (topic's op) on irc, he'll be happy to see his thread so alive :)
    Chanchai likes this.
  13. neoKEN

    neoKEN Well-Known Member

    Here are some Japanese high level demonstration of what close combat in Virtual On can be like. I should note that guarding in Virtual On is extremely different from any other fighter. Can only guard in melee range and with a lockon. As in real life, any attacks from behind or the side cannot be guarded. Guard only blocks melee attack while range attacks (95% of the attacks in VO) will beat guard. In VOOT, guarding can its own skill which for me is my worst skill.

    sa0001 (10/80 Special) vs angelan

    stein-vok vs dordray
    Shag, Catch22 and Chanchai like this.
  14. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

    that stein-vok vs dordray match was awesome, especially the 3rd round. Melee combat- love it!
  15. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Indeed, it brings a tear to my eye and fond memories of Auburn, Washington VOOT! That and I am a Dordray pilot hehe.
  16. neoKEN

    neoKEN Well-Known Member

    There is no splitscreen for 360 VOOT. However, you can do system link without the need for expensive cable (DC!). VO4 has 4 player splitscreen and system link.

    To watari dash, dash in a direction, make sure the stick is in neutral, then press a different direction. There is a limit to what direction a dash can watari into. No 180 degrees. Example, can't go forward then immediately backward or very left to very right The limit is 135 degrees.

    If using the dual analog as twinsticks, have to at least map one of the face button to crouch. Neutral crouch is nearly impossible to do with the dual analog. When I use dual analog twinstick setup, I set A=crouch, X=crouch left turbo, B=crouch right turbo, Y=special. Other than that, it is a good approximation to real twinsticks. Will help greatly once you encounter an actual VO arcade machine.
    BLACKSTAR, Chanchai and cobratron like this.
  17. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

    OK, here's the low-down on the Hori Twin Stick EX which arrived yesterday posted here:

    The box is gargantuan measuring 19"W x 11"H x15 1/4"L.

    The stick itself is 17"W x 12 1/2"L. Base plate hardware on the bottom are the same used on the current RAP V3/VX sticks.

    Compared to the VOOM Saturn Twin Sticks by Ascii, the stick are further apart- 6 1/4" compared to 9 1/2" respectively. The base is obviously bigger in every dimension for the EX. The screws that mount the mounting plate are now allen-head (hex) screws with a high quality chrome finish. I don't see these rusting, unlike the Saturn Sticks.

    The stick hardware used by the EX probably from the arcades, the plastics feel light, similar to that of the Saturn sticks by Ascii. I haven't handled a VOOT stick so I can't confirm for sure. Although, the digital sticks sold by Sanwa are quite expensive- about $100ea (JLJ-PL2-8V), which could be why the EX twin sticks are so expensive. If you look closely at the Sanwa stick below (JLJ-PL2-8V), it's the same as the one on the prototype Twin Stick EX, and what others are using to make custom twin sticks.

    Speaking of Sanwa, looks like they were commissioned to provide the stick hardware, and again, could be the exact ones on the arcade machine- which is what the sales pitch was initially when they were offered. Searching the Sanwa store, the VOOT arcade sticks, or the EX stick (again, which could be one and the same) are not available.

    The EX sticks by Sanwa feels like it could handle quite a bit more abuse compared to the Saturn sticks. Even though the EX stick's grip uses plastics similar to that of the Saturn sticks, the quality of the build is a bit better. There is no seam where both halves of the grips join, where dirt and grime usually get into. Also, the EX grips feels to be a hair thicker in the hand.

    Looking at the stick grip design, visually, they are very similar though not exactly the same. The Ascii hardware used by the Saturn sticks twist and rotate a couple degrees while the EX sticks have minimal play when twisted.



    Moving on to switch hardware, the stick EX stick's switches feel like Sanwa JLF joystick switches. Imagine mounting the handles on a JLF's shaft. Trigger buttons feel like microswitches like that on JLF sticks, instead of the surface mounted (board/PCB) switches used for the Saturn sticks (I checked!). The difference is huge has you don't get that mushy feeling like that of consumer light guns that use surface mounted switches.

    Turbo buttons on the EX seem to be Sanwa OSBF-24 inner plungers used with the same momentary switch (Sanwa SW-68), although unconfirmed, I would put money on this.

    The 4 colored buttons on top are all Sanwa OSBF-24s as is the Start button. The Back button uses OSBF-30.


    Finally, the big question- is the current (as of 9/12) price of $450-550 worth it? For the VO fanatic, it's a no-brainer, especially if you can't use the pad to play a VO game. For the collector, I'm pretty positive that this will be a highly sought after item as time progresses as probably only 1,500 were made as that was the preorder target amount set by Sega to produce this.
    For the casual fan... absolutely NO. For the VO fan on a budget, this one is a tough call.

    Edit: Shit, I did a bit more digging, but I think that the sticks on the EX are really arcade stuff... Here's a post by Menthol Moose:
    It looks to have just a regular switch housing, and not a hardcore assembly like the original VOOM ones- if you read that thread I linked.

    If you're on the fence of purchasing the EX stick, figure this- these EX sticks are made solely for the 360 (and probably the arcade). Add the fact that the Sanwa sticks go for $100ea., shit, the $350 or so that Hori was asking for was actually feasible.
    gns168, neoKEN, complexz and 2 others like this.
  18. complexz

    complexz Well-Known Member

    good shit catch 22, I really wish the sanwa sticks were cheaper as I have a vague interest in virtual on for sure but nobody I know will ever pay for a twinstick so unless I could build 2 of them for a reasonable ammount of money I think I am out of luck.

    I remember seeing someone mod 2 NES joysticks to make a twinstick and I might do that sometime if I run into a pair of old simple joysticks cheap.
  19. neoKEN

    neoKEN Well-Known Member

    Great post Catch 22.

    I want to add, I have an actual VOOM arcade twinstick. The VOOT sticks are redesigned and much different from VOOM arcade. I believed it is due to the difference, and more precise nature of VOOT. From what I remember (less than 1 year ago), the length of the base itself is almost 2 fighting stick case stacked on top of each other. The stick grip I think is longer as well. Durability was probably why the bottom part is so big. VOOT later address that by making the sticks shorter for even better durability. The longer the shaft, the easier it is to break.

    VOOT requires much more input than VOOM ever did. I can't imagine playing VOOT on a VOOM arcade stick and still be at my current level. To me, VOOM is a simplier and less complex game so any homemade would be doable. In VOOM, you just dash by holding turbo and picking a direction on either stick. Whereas in VOOT, the dash could be hold turbo + direction, then rotate (left stick up, right stick down), then watari (up -> right -> up -> right -> up). All of that within the same dash! It is quite normal at high level play.
    Chanchai likes this.
  20. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

    I edited some terminology- changed "handle" to "grip." Thanks Neoken for a better word for "handle." I was searching my head for the proper word. LOL. Also edited some speculation.

    Complex, I would see if you can find some Saturn twin sticks on eBay or something. I think I'm going to mod mine and upgrade it to Sanwa hardware. Maybe frankenstein a JLF stick into the Twin Stick grip.
    complexz and Chanchai like this.

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