vs Lion Thread

I feel like I'm betraying Lion by posting this... I posted this in the Goh forums (anti-character thread) so it has like one or two things Goh specific (though easy to apply to every other character).

It's not my complete thoughts on how to destroy Lion, just some thoughts on dealing with some of his stuff.

Like all constructive threads, constructive criticisms and corrections are very happily welcome.

Lion's strongest throw is generally 6 (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) but...

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif does almost as much damage alone. So 4 is also something to worry about as far as his throws.

If you can do two-throw escapes, I would do those two (6 and 4). But one solid throw escape with good guessing is better than two sloppy throw escapes.

Good thing to know about Lion is that his low punch is one-frame slower than everyone else's, but it has more reach. Just be aware that Lion might do low punch from mid-close range and backdash to bait you into doing something (he hopes you will whiff so he can punish you). This low punch situation is frustrating for Lion very up-close, but when he plays properly with range, it works out. Despite Lion's love of pokes, not being able to trust low punch up-close in neutral situations can be a little frustrating for him. His anti low attack moves also need a couple frames or at least some spacing for them to work too.

Because Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a Turn-Away attack and a good combo starter, it's a good abare move that will never clash with a throw. So don't be surprised if you're at +8 or something and Lion throws this at you if he thinks you'll throw. Of course, if your opponent shows no evidence that he will do this, then don't worry about it until he does. Furthermore, because it turns Lion backwards, it can be tough to punish him with a combo if you interrupt him out of this. I'm certain you can still back-throw Lion after the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and before the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Otherwise, if you block both, you have Nitaku since it's -9 for Lion.

I don't see Lion's sabaki that often these days compared to the past, but I'll write something on it here anyways. Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif sabaki will eat high punches, high kicks, mid kicks, sidekicks, and Knees and he will combo you. With Goh, you shouldn't worry too much about it as long as you're mixing in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or elbow attack (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif if you want to be super aggressive), heck even low punch. Just make sure your flowcharts acknowledge the sabaki (again, this is easy).

If all you were doing on ukemi-okizeme was knee or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or things like that, I would sabaki you. And those are situations where a lot of people typically go for very few mixups at the below-high-level play. So keep your okizeme mixups open enough. And when my Lion is waking up, that's the situation where I'm more likely to successfully sabaki on reflex (so much fun knowing that you're capable of sabaki on reflex).

Make sure to punish sweeps if Lion does them. You don't want to give him the impression that he can get away with sweeps on you.

Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif counterable in general (most of the time). Nowadays, it's uncommon for the spacing to cause a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to whiff--so take the guaranteed damage if you ever block this move (you're likely to see it during okizeme situations).

Lion's screwed if you block his low attacks, punish him right away for doing them so they don't become a threat (more common at low-mid level than high-level).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif are all special high attacks. Discourage Lion from using the final punch attacks of the strings (you can only really encourage him by doing low punch--SO DO NOT LOW PUNCH!).

Personally, I might backdash-evade or ECD or high punch if Lion likes to delay the last punch. If you always backdash though, Lion has some mean options for you (a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combo is one of them if you don't evade, a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is an option if you do evade--but I don't know many Lion players that would do these unless you were predictable in your response).

Outside of okizeme situations, I think you should be able to low punch Lion's forward moving stance on sight if you're fast enough. But I dunno, I still manage to get this stance (TRSF) working on EVERYONE I've played. Then again, I forgot to tell Yosuke to try to just low punch the stance on reflex (I realized this at the end of his trip to Portland, regretfully, and told him then).

If you see Lion's backstepping crouching stance (TRMF), don't go charging in, wait for him to get back up (it's a timed stance), and also know that his sweep option has crazy range (it'll sweep you at sidekick range, maybe more!). If he does the sweep, don't let him get away with it.

Don't even worry about his shuffle steps after a knee or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. All options are linear mid attack and he has to wait awhile if he wants to throw you. You figure his shuffling feet are telling you to ECD or something. I hope his Kanpo gets better in Version C... Beware of him doing just the one punch from Kanpo though, it'll result in him being back turned and he has a decent back-turned game.

Speaking of Lion's back-turned game, I love it. I think I'll start a thread about it after work.

Okay... I don't want to give away anymore Lion secrets now. This was painful, but I wrote all this and don't want to delete it

-Chanchai

 

Wouldn't a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif get snuffed though (so middle of string?)? I remember doing/trying /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and getting fucked over.

 

What I meant is that if you do low punch, you are only really encouraging him to do the punch option more. I can see why that wasn't clear enough the way I phrased it. I will fix it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

You betrayer! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Yeah, Lion's not gonna be making anymore allowances for this old man. Fortunately for him, I only covered a few tidbits in the mountains of things that do frustrate him lol.

As a community though, I think we can pull together to really reduce the character-knowledge deficiences within a year--I mean the general and most feared stuff as well as the easy things to handle. And making that information even more accessible, at least if that's the goal.

But I think we'll see more alignment towards that goal if the 360 version brings in new members the way that VF4 for PS2 brought new members (the traffic these days is kind of similar to the VF3tb days, prior to VF4 being announced and shown).

Anyways, back to vs. Lion stuff....

-Chanchai

 

Pfft. You're betraying Lion players all over by not going in-depth on how to beat him! The more we know about our weaknesses, the more we know about how to avoid having our weaknesses exploited. Playing against your own character can sometimes be a great way to learn how to play them better. Playing against Itazan really helped me when we mirror-matched. I got better literally every round during that period of time (while he explained how things happened following the match, of course).

 

Bump?

Let's learn how to exploit more of Lion's weaknesses, therefore learning how to make sure our weaknesses aren't exploited by our opponents. Do you have more secrets to give away, Nick?

Also: Who are the best counter-characters against Lion? Why are they strong against him? What strategies are the most abused in high-level play with/against him?