VS Wolf Problem

I normally don't have much problems against wolf. But I got a friend thats just badass with him. He plays wolf defensive and mostly just waits until the opponent (me) takes aktion (dash atk g ...)
He G really well and its hard to hit him, mostly only with fakes or throws. Also he concentrates on big damage combos so if I get hit its mostly about 100 points of damage. So he needs just about 2-3 hits and/or 1 throw to kill me. It would be easy to get him if his attack pattern was completely readable, but he mixes well too!
Some of his habits I can take advantage off but it does not do enough damage. I mostly play lei fei against him cuz the 66 and 33 dash attacks work well on him. If I play chars with low range (especially shun because of short arms, my throws whiff about 60% of the time) its almost instant kill.

What can I do against such an opponent? I watched tons of replays on youtube but none of the wolf players there had his attack pattern. So Im really stuck

 

If you don't want to be thrown best thing to do is never leave yourself open, do more moves which leave you with better recovery time, always remember to throw escape when you are left open, thing I notice with Wolf is some of his moves are easy to spot, look out for the strong attacks and be ready to evade, counter or sabaki.
When throw escaping remember forward against wolf.
When you say he guards well you have to ask yourself is this because my moves are obvious, throwing punches at a guarding opponent will not do anything and the opponent will work that out, remember to mix in low attacks and throws.
For Leifei try keeping some distance to avoid throws and pressuring with Sabakis, f f p has long distance and good speed.

 

Throw beats /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and ETEG (if delayed). If he sucks at throw escapes he'll start to abare unless he likes being thrown.
When he abares know what you can use to MC it or what to punish with afterwards.

Also: learn his frames and your opponent's setups.

Enter... the Theory Fighter:

Stupid example:

Wolf MCs with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, his reaction afterwards is punch class attack like HCB/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. If you know (and sometimes you just do) enter in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, bam! style points.

/stupid fucking bullshit.


But yeah:

1. learn how he plays (find habits to exploit)
2. learn his character
3. learn how to punish habits

 

More moves with better recovery time is good I'll try that.
Throw escapes are no problem, I can do 3 after a guranteed. I do Def/Off to evade, backdashing mostly fails vs wolf. I can't use Sabakis too often since he expects them. About the guarding he likes to low G and then switch to H guard I get him with dash throw or a dash attack in that situation sometimes dependand on if I guessed right, since he fakes his fakes too X_X. He really likes to fake his positions and he's good at it mindgame wise, is always a 50/50 chance. Also if he's got more energy than you he forces you to attack. I do mix H M and throws except 33 K+G since it gets countered every time. 66 P is one of my standard moves.
Keeping distance is normal with Lei problem is wolf has range too and he G breaks T-T

 

You need to apply more of a guessing game, if going through combos delaying stances to apply sabaki pressure doesn't work then you know he is avoiding using certain attacks at these points, usually low attacks or just guarding so you have the option here to quickly cancel and throw, jumping high/mid attack such as up/forward K + G or some kind of evading attack.
Low guard to high guard is very common, it is an easy trick to apply at the right times, if you can predict it go in for a throw.
Try using f f P+K for low attack, also use down/forward punch to get the counter kuzushi for strong combos.
I am not sure about G breaks, I only know of a couple and they are very slow, a quick low attack or F F punch should stop them.

 

Hmm yes I use 66 P+K too less, but it lacks good followups or I just don't know good ones. With 66 P and 66 TH or 33 I get him a lot but like I said it does too less dmg since I eat more. Also he keeps his distance and pushing him to the edge of the ring is more an advantage for him since he goes for wall comboes or ringouts.

- Yes I should take more advantage of the abare situations and and yes he sux at throw escapes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif he gets mostly only 1 max 2 done after a guaranteed. I get to throw him very often but since my throws only do about max 60 and wolfs do a min of 60 its very frustrating.

He's good at reading my flow, and I still have problems changeing my flow.

I'll try to do less guaranteed and try to punish his abare with 1 P+K and 3/9 P+K more often.

- About the G breaks he's not using them in close combat a 2P is no option. Sidestepping works well but not always since he mixes in throws.

 

It's funny to read about a Lei Fei and a Shun player having trouble with a Wolf player. It's usually the other way around.

"He plays Wolf defensively and mostly waits until the opponent(me) takes action"
It's understandable for Wolf to be played defensively but if you both are at the same level, he shouldn't be waiting for you to take action because he puts himself at a disadvantage frame-wise because he will most likely lose a hitting game and the throwing game would be equal since throws come out 12frames.. theoretically.
That means that he's not really doing something right, but you're doing something wrong. If he's just standing there holding G, dash in and throw him... if you find that he always fuzzy guards when you dash in (duckG then go back to standingG) attack him low or delay your throw. A Wolf back dashing from you and waiting for you to attack should always be a good thing for you since like I said: any attack he can do, you can do faster

Lei Fei and Shun have the best mix-ups in the game going from high, mid, low in some cases just in one LONG string

Wolf doesn't have combos that go past 90 unless he hits you into a wall with a really good angle or a light-weight.. or get hit into a stagger don't struggle fast enough, get stomach crumpled and hit with a 11P+K+G or 33P+K+G

His strongest combo starter is 46P+K which is slow and very throw counterable.
He doesn't really have long range except 66P+K(mid) and 3P+K(low) which don't lead into any more damage unless he gets a wall hit out of it

notice where you make mistakes and take big damage so you can avoid them, and learn mistakes he usually makes and give him big damage

As Shang has said before: a Wolf player's goal is to get his opponent to stop attacking and start blocking so that he can land a big damage throw on his opponent.
If he's giving you the chance to attack or throw, take it and mix it up.

As far as your friend's attack pattern, post up what he usually does so we can give you more specific advice. Hope this helps

 

"Wolf player's goal is to get his opponent to stop attacking and start blocking so that he can land a big damage throw on his opponent."

yeah, that's about right~ this is usually by breaking opponent's attack patterns with crush moves like df+p+k or SS.. none which are 100% reliable, but do make the opp feel trapped at times.

i cant speak for anybody else, but i hardly use throws in my wolf game, i guess only low throws, in VF5 tho, i feel throws are more in the subject of pressure ~

just trying using high P more on disadvantage if you think wolf is a grab greedy guy ~ high P is the best reverse nitaku option in VF5. common wolf players either throw or delay in their advantage, high P also (depends who u use) will break the +2 advantage game

 

It will be 1 to 2 weeks till I play with him again.
I'll try out everything you guys posted! thx a lot!
I got much more confidence now /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

I think my main problem is that I play defensive too and that my attacking patterns are too predictable. I'll try to fix my playing style, but it's really hard to get out of habits X_X

P.s. we'r not really on the same level he wins about 5 to 2 most of the time and if he's serious he can do about 10 to 1. He plays every character and knows his favorite chars commands 100% and the others about 60% to 80%. We play VF5 about 3 to 4 years together. I play it about 4-5 years he plays it 1-2 years longer.
And he plays it reagularly against his brother and friends where I just play it VS if I meet him.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but he might do the standing k guard cancel which can always play mind games with the opponent. Hopefully you're escaping the grounded throws with 3 P+G. Sweeps are deadly against wolf because its one of the few things he can't reverse.

I can't think of any other adice other than learn your stances and your mind games. Shun-Di and Lei-Fei have some of the greates mind games in the book. You should study battles of people that play your characters and not just people who play Wolf. The last bit of advice I can give is up your input speed, just watch footage of Japanese players and you will know what I mean.

 

Well I played my friend today, but he was too tired cause he didn't sleep all night. But he tought me Wolf a bit. Wolf is an absolute noob to avarage player killer. His combos are so easy to perform he has K reversals, very dmg throws, low punch and high punch "sabakis". Even if hes a bit slow, if the attacks are timed right he's so badass X_X

Well I know now what I need to learn:
1. Stagger recovery 2. Standing up from lying on the ground 3. Less 2P 4. ETEG
I've trained them a lot but I'm still too bad with them.

P.S. Mixing up 6 K+G 6P Throw, 6 K+G Throw, 9 P+K 2P 236P, 3 P+K and throws is so ..... well I would say unfair, but it isn't cause it depends on the players skill, but no chance with my current lvl. I never would have thought that I sux so much X_X

 

MystD, something that you might want to try against a defensive player is P > throw and d+P > throw. You may find this works better than simply trying to dash in and throw him. If your friend is more likely to be blocking low, mix in (d+)P > elbow to stagger him.

 

^-^ 2P TH and P TH is standard, we use it since VF 1 XD

I'll be using fuzzy guard to step in and mix in my dash atks and throws. That should work fine.

 

I miss the power of (d+)P > throw from VF1 and 2...
Heh, I didn't know what a "tick throw" was back then.

 

I am very depressed! What can i oppose to Wolf (I play for Goh)-ver.B:

1)His throw MORE dmg than mine(100 vs 70), more variants (Goh's Tsukami is very not-garanted)

2)He has 3 direction of Crouch Throw, all to dmg (max dmg75 vs ONE my 50)

3)He is Havy weight(less combo) vs Mid light Goh(combo master's dream)

4)I analize both Frame data:
-many analog moves better than mine(on guard, stagger,range)
-his combos are just ULTIMATE( 80 dmg as routine)

May be he was fixed in Ver.C? I really think, that he is not balanced!

I really don't know how to fight him with Goh =(( Please, help me...

 

I don't get what you are saying but punch and kick that dude. throw him too.

Seriously though, your questions aren't very clear.

 

1. Yeah, his throws do more damage, but 70-65-50ish isn't bad either. Besides, unless you hit a wall or get rung out, PGS only does 80. Break /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif. Tsukami is also attached to a sabaki (one variant), and though most people escape by randomly shaking the stick, so press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on occasion and get your free /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif combo.

2. Guess better; but most players are greedy and attempt /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif for the most part. Goh's low throw is only meant for beating fuzzy at best.

3. And? It isn't as bad as playing Aoi or Vanessa or playing against Jeffry (for the most part). Besides, Goh has decent combo damage even on Wolf.

4. His /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combos lead to good damage, but /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif needs to be MC (don't abare so much) and a blocked /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif leads to a free /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif>combo for Goh. Also Goh has a much easier to apply elbow (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif), very easy to hit check with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, simple /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif mind games, sabaki attacks, and a simple/effective BT game among other things I left out.

Goh's fine and he received the fewest changes in Ver. C (increase tsukami damage for single directions and making /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in MP reversal[anything else?]).

Just throw more, punish better (if you have a free /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif always take it!), throw escape and tech PGS, apply sabaki when necessary.

 

Thank you.

But at the same time Wolf has:
1)2_3P(input is simple by 33P)-long range, heavy stagger(combo starter), fast.
I often eat from him: 2P, then mix-up Throw(GS) or 2_3P

2)His 3P leads tp force crouch->Wellcome to Low throw(with 3 directions) ...Where is Goh's 4P from VF4Evo?!

3)62K-sp.Low(to high guard stagger)-Yes, unsafe(-26 on guard), but fast(17) and high, mid(?) whiff-very usable as CH.

4)P+K(variable with charge)-the ultimate weapon-long, half-spin, stagger at all, whiff high(?).
Goh's 4(charge)P+K?! What a joke!

5)33P+K into Slam(->combo)exe17, -8 on guard.
Goh's similar: kirin(33P)(->combo)exe18, -12 on guard(Hello, GS fast input=80-100dmg), eh, sorry i've forgot-this(Goh's) is superreplay(so i am not crying)))

6)Wolf's K+G-safe(0 fr on guard), on H+9, CH+12 also opponent in side-turned(also+3)-> even on Hit-guaranted throw situation. exe24, fullspin.
Goh's alternative: K+G-on guard -5, on CH+5, little faster(20). But yes this have follow-up( but seems not naturally combo)P.

Also Wolf has 6K+G, 66K+G-notunsafe-leads to stagger/stmbl, half/full spin.

And so on...Never though, that i can say this in VF(the best Balanced fighting game), but "Wolf is Top-tier(against Goh)" =((

 

Well then, Wolf is just too good. Maybe you should just ring yourself out whenever you fight a wolf player.

 

maybe you are just not a very good Goh.