Wanted All Lei Fei Players

Don't forget Lion--praying mantis.

 

(Keep in mind that the reason I'm responding here is because I want this team to succeed, and really do want to learn with like-minded Lei players. This may not come across in the post, but that is the motivation behind my response.)

No, it wasn't. I read the whole thing. And I addressed every point in it, including the ones you're reiterating here.

Let's get this right off the bat: I understand where you're coming from: if you want to master Lei Fei, you need to focus exclusively on him, and not try to master the other characters. Here's the thing: if you've been paying attention to what I've been saying, you'd see I'd been agreeing with that. I NEVER said you have to master the other characters to understand how to beat them (so can you please[/size] stop repeating that). In fact I distinctly said in the last post that you don't HAVE to master the other characters in order to know how to beat them. What I am saying is that you have to know the basics to know how to counteract them. This is something that every last competitive fighting game player of every last decent fighting game has always understood. If you don't know how another character fights, then you most likely will get caught off guard by the simplest of their tactics. Even the mediocre players will beat you. I know what I'm talking about here, because I've seen it happen in many games, including this one, and not just to me.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that because I said I was a beginner you're instantly thinking that I automatically don't know what I'm talking about here, which is not only condescending and insulting, but incredibly arrogant. It's not like I haven't played fighting games before: I've been putting up quarters to go next ever since Street Fighter 2 and rocked knots with some fantastic players over the years. I rightfully call myself a beginner in THIS game because for one, I never played FS before, and two, I never really had the opportunity to play against humans consistently in VF games. But I have played VF, ever since the first installment. I understand the basic systems it uses. Hell, I'd beaten VF4 Evolution's Quest mode on hard with Lei Fei, and while I'm still learning the system and moves for VF5:FS and don't think I can call myself an intermediate yet, I'm slowly getting better at the game and have been able to start winning matches after gaining some new insights... insights that I've only been able to get because of what I've been trying to get through your head for the past couple of posts now: you need[/size] to understand how other characters fight in order to beat them. That's how I've been able to deal with the attacks coming my way when I jump online the few times I do, and I've done it without trying to master any other character but Lei Fei.

Seriously, let's not be putting on airs because I'm a beginner at this game. And let's not get to pretending that being a master of a character in this game equates to being a master of martial arts. Oh, and the way you've been responding to the points I've been bringing up makes me question if you've ever been exposed to real martial arts, but I think that's getting away from the subject at hand, as relevant as this point is.

Let's get to some of the points you said (which again, if you'd fully read what I posted, you'd see I'd already addressed):

Why not? This is what the Japanese players have been doing ever since the game first came out. Hell, this what people have been doing in this very website ever since the game came out, and yes, that includes the best of them. Have you been paying attention to the conversations on the Shout Box?

Because you aren't really ready to deal with learning from the masters of the other characters. If you're just trying to learn how to use Lei Fei, then at the level you're at, you're trying to learn how to use Lei's moves against the other character's moves. Once you start dealing with expert level play, you're beyond that.

Here's what you don't get: no matter how mediocre my Kage may be, if I at least know the basics with him, and you've never dealt with him before, chances are I'm going to win some matches against you. And the only way you're going to be able to beat me is to learn how to counter those moves. You don't need to go up against a master player to figure out how to do just that. Plus, once you start dealing with advanced play, you're just looking at expert use of the very basics that the novice level players are going to be using anyway, so you're not really losing anything by playing against a novice mid level Kage player, as long as they are actually trying to apply these basic strategies and aren't just button mashing. Also, when it comes to master level play, you are no longer really dealing with the character anymore. Now you're dealing with the PLAYER. They've gone beyond just trying to use the character's moves to beat you... the character is now an extension of the mind games they want to dominate you with. They are out to completely control the flow of the match. This is way beyond what people still learning how to use their characters will be able to deal with, much less learn anything from.

Is this getting through to you yet? You're trying to start a team of Lei Fei players trying to learn how to master the character (remember, they haven't yet) who are not allowed to even go through the move lists of other characters to learn how to counteract them... and you want to pit them against expert players of other characters for practice?? This is a recipe for disaster... they will learn NOTHING from this but how to lose badly. They have to play against people their level to even have a chance of understanding how to effectively apply their tools and strategies. You're basically setting up some poor sap to start a match thinking "Ok, let me see how I can use my Hai Shiki against this guy,", and the expert is thinking "I'm going to control the flow of this match and make this guy react the way I want him to." The sap doesn't stand a chance, and won't even have a chance to apply the very thing he's trying to learn how to use properly, which means he's going to gain little, if any insight, from this match. But say he's going against another player hoping they can land their particular move they've been trying to learn how to use. Now they're on an even playing field, and the Lei Fei player will actually have a chance to learn how to apply his stance properly without being completely dominated to the point he'll never see the circumstance where it could be useful.

If you truly care about making this team successful, and aren't simply trying to roleplay some kind of digital Shaolin temple through VF5:FS, you have two options:

- Pit your team against players who are at their level[/size] (something which it seems you're more open to do.)

- have your team actually explore the movesets of other characters themselves so they can know what their properties are (ie, frame data, effectiveness, etc), and how to beat them (which is something the best players have been doing).

I know which way I'd want to go... I'd take both options. You have to play other players to get good, we all know that. But first hand knowledge of their moves will also help... it has helped anyone who's decided they wanted to go pro in just about every fighting game that exists.

I think I've already addressed these four points by now, but let me just reiterate once again that you don't need to focus on other characters besides Lei Fei in order to understand their basic moves and strategies. Oh, and I hate to break it to you, but these characters aren't all that deep. It's the GAMEPLAY that's deep. Sure, these characters can be complex, but learning how to play with them is as simple as spending a day with a character in tutorial mode, then beating the game on hard. Congratulations, you have a basic understanding of how the character plays. The reason why we spend countless hours with them in the Dojo is because we are trying to learn how to apply their moves against other humans in context of the deep gameplay system these characters exist in. We're ultimately trying to learn how to out-think the other player via the use of our own character; that's where the "deep" side of things comes in. but it's not as if the characters themselves are all that hard to learn. Again, they do have a level of complexity, sure, but really, are you going to sit there and tell me that it takes months to figure out that pressing ++ goes into Hai Shiki?? That's not deep... what's deep is knowing WHEN to input that command in and how your opponent might react, which is a reflection of the deepness of the game engine, and not necessarily of the characters themselves.

Lion also, but as a whole, even though I didn't argue this point I think it has merit, mostly for the very thing that I've been trying to point out: having a variety of different characters to spar against in a casual setting in order to have more effective Lei's. Besides, if you're trying to have a sort of Shaolin Temple theme with your team, then you sorta have to let those other Kung Fu fighters in. Again, how many styles have been taught (and are still taught) at that temple? Actually, I might as well let the cat out the bag... the reason why there are so many styles taught at Shaolin is because almost none of them actually originated at Shaolin. Those styles were brought there by outsiders becoming monks who already had martial skills. Those skills were shared with other monks and became part of their heritage. But most of the styles taught there were not actually created in the temple. So if you were to let other people using other Kung Fu using characters in to focus on those characters exclusively into the team, you'd be reflecting that history.

Again, already know this. This was not the position I was arguing for.

See comment above. Also, I find it rather condescending that you would assume we AREN'T "doing the work." I can't speak for phanatik (though I assume he's putting his practice into the game), but as for myself, who's the one who currently has a thread here called "What I learned so far using Lei Fei"? Where did I come up with some of the tactics and combos I talk about, through osmosis? No, I've been practicing like crazy in free training mode, fighting the AI and figuring out what works and what doesn't, then every now and then trying it out online to see what more I need to work on. I'm doing the work, and I'm doing it with just ONE character. And if you did fully read that thread, you'd know that I've already had my share of beatings in this game; remember my warning to beginners about playing ranked. Please don't condescend to me; that only makes me angry and motivated to point out the flaws in your position. Honestly, if you hadn't taken that tone, I probably wouldn't even be making this post.

I'm honestly thinking that you have a hard time with people challenging you on any positions you make, since phanatik has already dropped the subject some time ago, and said he was willing to go with whatever you said. He even stated he was willing to look up some XBL Lei players for you. Yet you lump him up here as if he's still arguing this position, even putting up this stupid stipulation that he has to take on three ranked members of the team in order to get in, as if we're living in a Shaw Bros' movie or something. Oh, and you need to get your cliche's straight: when an outside fighter has to take on three top students, that in order to challenge the master, not to get into the school. To get into the school, the student just has to prove his perseverance and loyalty to the teacher.

This little stipulation here not only says to me that you don't like being questioned, but you also see this team you're building as some kind of Kung Fu role playing fantasy. Hey, if that's the case, have fun; after all having fun is what we want to do with this game ultimately. but understand some people just want to learn how to play the game, and really don't have much time for this sort of nonsense. I wanted to join this team in order to learn from other Lei Fei players, not play act in some kind of digital Shaolin Temple. I already practice martial arts in real life; I don't have to pretend to do it via Virtua Fighter. If I'm reading too much into this, please let me know, but if I'm right, then I really don't have any interest in joining, despite the potential I see here. I still think it's a great idea, and I still hope that this team is able to do what it sets out to do, but I only see that happening if it gets realistic about the game, what it can get out of it, and how to actually be effective against the other players out there.

This is my last post on the subject. How it's responded to will determine if I want to join this team or not.

 

Hey vmoney that's actually, good, we some team leaders that can be on both consoles.

Do you want to help organize Team-Shaolin on XBL?

 

This thread contains a lot of TL;DR.

I play Lei-Fei as a main, but not exclusively. I don't think you'll find many people enthusiastic to restrict themselves from branching into other areas of the game. Also, learning other characters gives you insight into your own.

Masterpo: I also train in the 37th chamber. You think your Wu-Tang sword can defeat me?

 

@SwordSainte,

First, let me apologize for sounding condenscending. It truly was not my intention. I am in no position to condescend to anyone. I am the lowliest of Lei Fei players, and that's the absolute truth. So I apologzie to you, and to Phanatik, if that's how I came off. Rly! I apologize.


Second, I've read every word of your post. Finally someone who can make posts longer than mine Its been a long time waiting for that, I'm truly glad you're here. It takes a great deal of pressure off of me I did not mean to disrespect your experience in the other fighting games either. Again, A thousand apologies. After reading your posts, you have solid reasoning behind all of your arguments. I now know our goals are the same although are methods may be different. After truly getting you're argument, the majority of very good player will agree with you, because that's precisely how they got as good as they are. So what I'm saying is not only is your reasoning sound, but its valid through emprical proof. And I also count it as valid. Are we clear?

Now, let me give you some of my personal experience with being a Lei Fei only player. Perhaps if I took your approach I would be better LOL I started out fighting against players that were far far far far far far better than me. I can remember one Master Akira player that I played and he brutalized me, pummeled me, combos coming from every direction, it felt like I was in the air the whole time, my controller was stuck, all I could do was scream Rly! I was being raped, and had no answer. My first reflex was to go pick up Akira and see what the hell was that Master using. But I was such a noob, I couldn't get akira to do anything close like the guy I was fighting.

So, I took the other road, I went deeper into Lei Fei. At the time I knew nothing about 2p, setups for rising attacks, or spacing,fuzzy guard, sabaki, nothin! So I learn a few more techniques from VF4Evo, I play many more ppl, always getting my ass kicked, but each time the fights got slower and slower, I could see what was going on. Now I could see Akira's combo launchers coming, sometimes I got out of the way, sometimes I fell victim. SwordSainte I eventually mastered Akira, without ever picking him up. Through enough ass kickings and by playing enough Akira players, I started to see the patterns, and as I got deeper with Lei Fei I found ways to avoid, or counter, or survive the patterns. Perhaps if I had gone your way and phantik's way I would have gotten there sooner, but I've learned all the character in VF by getting my ass beat round after round, match after match and by slowly finding a Lei Fei answer for what was happening to me.

I can't tell you what the command lists looks like for any other character in VF except for LEI FEI (well I can for Lau, I used Lau to learn the stick), but with the exception of Lau I have no idea what the command lists even look like, but I do know what their attacks look like, I can recognize on screen what is actually happening, now my fights are in very slow motion even when I'm being assailed by a player that is 5 times better than me, I know what he/she is doing to me I just haven't developed an answer for it yet, or there are times I'm just tired ( I work all day, working on Phd also there is only so much time in the day) Or sometimes the guy or gal is simply just faster than I am, or more creative and in those cases no amount of practice will help you. There's always, I mean always somebody out there that can beat you down. Sometimes you're having an off day, and some 10kyu will hand you your hat.

Anyway I've learned the other characters in the ring, as they were across from me, in countless rounds and matches. I do know the movelists behind the characters, for visually I see it all comin. Again SwordSainte you're right at high level, you are playing the player and not the character, because the character has become an extension of the player. I agree, but the player is limited by the moves of the character. You cannot get Jean's moves out of Shun di no matter how good you are


Now a whole lot of cats would not have taken the beatings that I have. Most of them would have went to the dojo loaded up the other characters (like you and phantik suggest) and found out what was up, and figured out a strategy from there. Which is a legitimate approach, I'm not taking anything from that.

At the end of the day, perhaps I'm trying impose my own weaknesses and limitations on the new Team-Shaolin.

Here is where we do have disagreement, these characters do have sophisticated(deep) movelists in the context of the entire game system. I've seen nehan, and bokutai used in so many imaginative ways. Ways that I would have never thought of. Since your last post indicates that you've been around for a while. (I can appreciate that), Then you know, just because you can pull off a move doesn't mean you know all the places that move should be, shouldn't be or could be or couldn't be used.

Depending on your opponent each fight can be a work of art, and there really is no end to the creativity that can go into these movelists. This is why I say there simply isn't enough time for you to be proficient at more than two characters during the lifetime of the current version of VF your playing.

Now, perhaps, your definition of proficient or mastery might be different than mine. There are players that master the techniques in the system, and do so with only the necessary moves for in given character (i'm not mad at em) I lose to these players all the time. They've mastered VF play, without mastering any particular character (that's kewl its all good).

One of the goals for Team-Shaolin is to master Lei Fei not just mastering the system using some Lei Fei moves (not that you're suggesting that). Here's more experience. If you include all the versions of VF I've played, and all the ppl and the AI's I've played, and you subtract from that moves that I do with Lei Fei, I can honestly tell you that maybe I've seen 60% of Lei Fei's moves during fights. And I've had tens of thousands (including against the AI)fights. Certainly thousands of mirror matches with Lei Fei.

Some would argue that Lei Fei has some moves that are not practical during a competitive match, so they're not used. If they were competitive then you would see them in the match.
I've found a good use for every move Lei Fei has and a time to use them. VF5FS has barely been out a week, I can't tell you how many times some one has messaged me saying where do you get that move from. Rly! or how did you do that? Or is that move new for VF5FS. I would like to have masters of the character and the system. So the real issue is there is obviously more than one way to skin a cat

1) Learn to some degree the other characters so you know what the hell you're up against. At least learn these character's movelists in the context of the basic mechanics of the game. But this will take time away from you learning the movelist of Lei Fei

2) Learn Lei Fei exclusively, and learn the other characters through the trial and error of getting your butt whipped, round, after round, match, after match. But this will take even more time than picking up the other character's move list in the context of the basic game mechanics.

You ask whether I know any martial arts. And you suppose that from my posts I do have any real martial arts experience, well.., My approach is #2 because of my personal experience with martial arts, yours could be different.

In real life I have one Kendo master and one Tai chi Chuan master. Neither have an official school and both have tutored me and my wife or years personally. They are for the most part family. I would never consider switching, NEVER, EVER. I don't care if they have limitations or if what they're teaching me has limitations. Because that's something I've learned anybody can be beat. In the game or in real life. There is no
combination of schools or techniques that make you invincible,
on any given day, somebody can kick your ass with a style you thought you had an answer for. Because of that fact, I'm absolutely loyal to my training. If my training has limitations (and I know it does) those are my limitations, and if I come up against someone that has my number, then my time is up. That's the way of life. Yea, I have real martial arts experience, and its not a game, or a sport for that matter.

By sticking with one style (weapons based Kendo), (hand to hand Tai Chi Chaun) I have many many limitations. But my limitations also help build my character, my morality, and humanity.

The fact that I have taken so many beatings in VF, lost so many fights, I mean thousands. No joke, I know for a fact that I've lost more fights that many VF players have ever played. That vast amount of losing builds character. It creates steel. Don't get me wrong I've also won more fights than many VF players have played. Now its all about purity, and truth. I now ask myself was there any truth in the last match I played. A win or a loss, not important. Was there any conviction in my moves, any truth in my attacks, if I took my opponent's life bar, was it pure? If he took mines did I honor the temple or shame the temple.

Team-Shaolin can definitely be built using the approach you and phantik are proposing, no doubt. But the members that take the approach I'm suggesting will play with a very different kind of passion, a different kind of steel. Not that the players as a result technique 1 won't play with passion or steel. I'm just saying If they take approach 2 and master Lei Fei (using the exlucusive character approach) and the game mechanics, well, let's just say that would make them some what of a dilemma for any other team.

Again, we're trying to start a team. I would have to go with what makes sense for the majority of ppl who would be on the team.no doubt I would probably have some pupils on the team that would see it my way. I guess it would be a great experiment. But as long as we all represent Team-Shaolin then its a win/win.

 

I would like to start by saying I completely agree with character loyalty especially when recruiting disciples also I am seriously interested in joining on the XBL Side with that said....

in my opinion RULE #1 Filters out the casual/ seasonal Lei players and helps your group focus its energy on the right people

There is nothing worse than wasting your time

final thought

If your groups mission is to please the masses than change your rules

If your group is for Lei enthusiast than keep up what your doing

 

interested. facebook messaging preferred. link in sig. facebook "closed" group for teamshaolin request please.

 

we will be getting to everyone shortly.

 

I'm usually on XBL every night from 9/9:30pm-12am PST

 

Can you and SwordSainte start a TeamShaolin for Xbox?

 

I can't start one for Xbox... I'm actually on PSN just like you. But I wouln't mind meeting up with you sometime for a few matches and general training. In fact, I would have played you already, though at the moment I can't play my PS3 because of breaker problems at my home. As soon as I get that sorted out, I'll let you know.

 

Gladly. How do we want to communicate? VFDC? fb? Should we start a separate thread for practice times? Is that even necessary?

 

well me and phanatik can start the XBL group. I just have been a little busy with my DJ shows.

 

VFDC is good for me, we can either use this thread or PM. But there's nothing secret at the moment.

Since we're looking at a Team Shaolin for XBL and PSN, we should
coordinate goals and stuff. For example.

The movlists, I was thinking of having training camps centered around stances e.g Dokuritsu, Bokutai, Nehan Shiki, etc.

We want to get all the Lei Fei's familiar with the stances, some of the obvious and not so obvious advances of each all the documented (an undocumented) ways to switch between them, etc.

There are many Lei Fei katas we can learn as a team also,

And we are thinking about using the licensing feature, and special sparring sessions in Single player just to get everybody warmed up.

What do yalls thinx?

 

I have no problem communicating through VDFC: just hit me up via the PM system. Though if you really want my FB page, I can share that with you.

I really need the matches at this point... I haven't been able to play in so long, I'm pretty sure my (already minimal) skills have atrophied.

 

Me and vmoney will be on XBL tonight. Fri 6/29.

 

Hey, I've sent a couple PSN requests to some of you, so I figured I should show my face here. From the sounds of it, I'm not the only one who wants to get serious about 3D fighters but doesn't have the time to spent multiple hour each day practising.
I've played VF from the first days but only started taking it seriously with VF4EVO. I used to main Vanessa, but since taking up Wing Chun, I've switched to Lei. And he's awesome.

 

What's up to all the Lei Fei players out there.

 

Risen is in the house!

 

Sup phanatik. Like those Lei combos you come up with man!