We must save Virtua Fighter!

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by BlueFlash, Jul 26, 2001.

  1. BlueFlash

    BlueFlash Active Member

    Dammit,
    Why is VIrtua Fighter not a popular game in the U.S.? I know, I know, we ALL know why it fails compared to the other games, but I mean, us fans in the U.S., and basically everywhere outside of Japan, are missing out. You lucky few who have played the test version, or even the real version, shoot,... sigh,.....I am definitely thinking that I am going to have to wait until it comes out on PS2, and even then, why do I feel that it will not catch on only because people are so anti-Sega, for various reasons? I don't know, I'm getting real pessimistic although I know that I will be enjoying it, but the overall public, I just don't know why but I feel obligated to force people to enjoy it too, just so I won't miss out in the future, I just hope that Sega does a good marketing job, or I mean PS2, or whoever!, Anyone else got any feedback or ideas on what can be done? DAmn, I sound like a whining s*** right now, butI don't know, whatever.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    About the marketing thing. here in europe, ****-Sony will publish VF4, so have no fear a marketing avalnche for Vf4 is going to be here........hehehehe
     
  3. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas Well-Known Member

    Videogames today are dominated by sequels. Tekken, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Gran Tourismo, Tony Hawk, Sonic, Spyro, Crash, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Smash Brothers, Wave Race, Tomb Raider, WWF, Deer Hunter, EA Sports, NFL/NBA 2K1, etc. You get the point. The public goes for the safe choice, the familiar name, the same thing that worked before. Choosing this year's model saves all the time and trouble to learn how to play or understand something "new." That takes time, and I wanna play NOW. Never underestimate the power of the ever-shrinking American Attention Span.

    It's becoming increasingly difficult for any non-sports, non-sequel to sell. Shenmue was a good exception last year, but it was Sega's high-profile title that generated a lot of attention. Most of the Dreamcast's best games went virtually ignored. Why bother with that new game? I want this year's WWF Smackdown because I like to watch wrestling on TV.

    Not that I want to make dedicated videogame fans feel depressed. But no Virtua Fighter game will ever be a success in the United States. More than any other genre, people expect fighting games to be instantaneously fun and accessable. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone describe their Soul Calibur strategy as "I just hit the buttons."

    Tekken 4 will be hugely successful, thanks to its PSX heritage and popularity at arcades. Likewise, Super Smash Bros will sell like hotcakes on GameCube. The next Soul Calibur and DOA will also sell well. VF4 will sell below all of these. It will be beloved by its small fan base, as well as those who consider themselves true fighting fans. But that's it.

    -----
    "One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How the elephant got in my pajamas, I don't know."
    -- Groucho Marx
     
  4. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    people will be born and die, the sun will rise and set, and vf will never be popular in the west. don't bother trying to explain why or whine about it, because it's pointless, hopeless and it only clutters up the board. just accept it.
     
  5. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    haha
    very true rich...
     
  6. Zero-chan

    Zero-chan Well-Known Member

    People are stupid, plain and simple.
    Most of the fighting games which are popular are those which are initially scrub-friendly (or feature some sort of Shotokan in them), and don't contain a whole lot in the way of new fighting systems/techniques or innovation.
    VF takes time to learn how to play even on a decent level. People are generally lazy and cheap, and don't want to invest money in learning it when they can mash on something else. There's other factors too, like the fact that it doesn't have the "popular legacy" behind it that many other successful fighters do. (If the Saturn had performed better, and VF3 had seen better distribution, perhaps VF would be played and appreciated by more...)

    -Zero-chan the lurker
    http://www.fightingvipers.net
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    One name: VF3

    You have to realice, despite all the glorious gameplay, VF3 was INACCESIBLE to newcomers... utterly, totally. There was no mash character, the movement, even at medium level, looked choppy. And then, the moves and combos... or should I say, execution?? Horrid.

    Would you be drawn into a game that doesn't look great and even after long watching and trying you can't do squat?? I wouldn't and that's where VF3 utterly failed. VF2 was fun, even to newcomers because it looked good with characters like Leon. But part 3 totally lost in this aspect.

    So I'm betting high stakes on VF4: a mashable character which will also allow competent play, great visuals and much eased controls... I think people will just need some time to get used to it, but I'm sure it will gather a much greater following than VF3.


    Inu Yasha
     
  8. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    "Would you be drawn into a game that doesn't look great..."

    er, what? VF3 still looks great. at the time of release it was graphically exceptional.
     
  9. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    agreed! At the time of its release it was indeed the best - used Sega's model 3 board or something right? No other graphic card came close. It was long after that that Naomi was released, which then surpassed it.

    It was such a well-made and graphically stunning game when it was released back in 96 (can't rem year now - was it? Or 97?) I got hooked immediately

    {{ <A target="_blank" HREF=http://shreddedbits.com>http://shreddedbits.com</A> }}
    Desktop downloads
     
  10. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    i hate adding to this stupid thread..but...

    um, no. that's total crap. vf1/2/3 were all inaccessable to newbies, but vf3 was the most accessable of them all. vf2 was the most inaccessable by far, and the gap between anyone with a smidgen of experience to a newbie is huge; the newbie will never, ever win in vf2. ever. in vf3 he's got a chance, albiet small.

    not that it mattered - they all bombed, and they will continue to bomb in the west unless they change it to tekken or mk.

    and, i know appearance is subjective, but really. you're just plain ignorant if you think vf3 (arcade) looks bad. still looks great to this day.
     
  11. Vicks Biru

    Vicks Biru Well-Known Member

    I thought 3 was the most accessible as well. VF2 was a bit complicated at first for me. I mean, considering the first time I played 2 and 3, I died earlier in 2.

    <font color=black>Yowai...yowai sugimasu wa!</font color=black>
     
  12. DMan

    DMan Well-Known Member

    The complaints I hear around here are:
    1) the movement looks short and choppy.
    2) the moves are to complicated to do.

    Not that I want this to happen, but I think if VF had more visual effects like sparks, electricity, lighting and stuff it would attract more people to try playing it. Oh well. So far I still don't think VF4 will do anything to change things in the US, but that won't stop me from loving it!
     
  13. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Not that I want this to happen, but I think if VF had more visual effects like sparks, electricity, lighting and stuff it would attract more people to try playing it.

    I disagree. I think Daniel Thomas makes a good point in posting that the video game market is dominated by sequels. People want more of the same thing that made the first title big. They're not willing to try something different, unless it doesn't stray too far from what's popular.
    I think that even if VF4 added pyrotechnics, fireballs, fatalities, bouncing boobs, etc., it wouldn't make a difference. The mainstream gaming public has already made up its mind about which sequel it will play, the writers have already made up their minds which game they will endorse, and the arcade managers have made up their minds which game will be in their arcades.
    If VF goes that route, and the American gaming public still doen't accept it, then what? What if VF pushes away the loyal fans it has now in an effort to appeal to the masses?
    As always, I'm not trying to flame. But that just sounds like a bad idea.


    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=red>DOG</font color=red>
     
  14. DMan

    DMan Well-Known Member

    I disagree. I think Daniel Thomas makes a good point in posting that the video game market is dominated by sequels. People want more of the same thing that made the first title big. They're not willing to try something different, unless it doesn't stray too far from what's popular."

    how popular was Dead or Alive 1? When DOA2 came out it was very different and it seemed to do well in part because of its looks and how easy it was to play.


    I think that even if VF4 added pyrotechnics, fireballs, fatalities, bouncing boobs, etc., it wouldn't make a difference. The mainstream gaming public has already made up its mind about which sequel it will play, the writers have already made up their minds which game they will endorse, and the arcade managers have made up their minds which game will be in their arcades."


    I disagree. I think it takes a combination of marketing, good looks, and easy but deep gameplay to make a game successfull among the mainstream gamers. Of course if the previous game was popular, it will have established a following and those people will probably support the sequel, but I don't think that the mainstream isn't open to new good games if those games manage to strike a balance amoung good gameplay, good looks, and fun factor.


    If VF goes that route, and the American gaming public still doen't accept it, then what? What if VF pushes away the loyal fans it has now in an effort to appeal to the masses?
    As always, I'm not trying to flame. But that just sounds like a bad idea.


    As I said earlier I definitly don't want VF to try to add all those flashy things, but It seems like the mainstream gamers are more likely to play a fighting game if they can pull of something that looks really cool in the beginning withought much effort.

    Here is another question. If VF had those sort of flashy elements, would the hardcore players really stop playing it? Would that really matter to most hardcore players as long as the deep gameplay that we love is still in there? All in all I just want to be able to go to the arcades and play some VF with more competition, instead of having no other options except the latest tekken or street fighter.

    -DMan-
     
  15. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    how popular was Dead or Alive 1? When DOA2 came out it was very different and it seemed to do well in part because of its looks and how easy it was to play.

    DOA2 was not very different from DOA. It's just more of what made DOA moderately popular (chicks with big bouncy tits).

    Of course if the previous game was popular, it will have established a following and those people will probably support the sequel, but I don't think that the mainstream isn't open to new good games if those games manage to strike a balance amoung good gameplay, good looks, and fun factor.

    How popular was VOOT, or for that matter, Virtual On? What about Tobal 2? Those games have good gameplay, good looks, and fun factor. But to say the mainstream wasn't open to them is a BIG understatement. There's a very small number of VOOT machines here, if any, and Tobal 2 wasn't released in the states, so I had to get an import.

    As I said earlier I definitly don't want VF to try to add all those flashy things, but It seems like the mainstream gamers are more likely to play a fighting game if they can pull of something that looks really cool in the beginning withought much effort.

    I never stated that you wanted VF to add all those things. I just asked questions.

    If VF had those sort of flashy elements, would the hardcore players really stop playing it?

    I can't answer for the "hardcore players", and I wasn't trying to. I wouldn't hate VF. I'd still play it. But it would seem like Sega wasn't trying to be original, but trying to imitate whatever's popular. And if they compromise, and they still don't appeal to the masses, then it would have been for nothing. Why not stick to your guns and continue to set the trend?

    All in all I just want to be able to go to the arcades and play some VF with more competition, instead of having no other options except the latest tekken or street fighter.

    So do I, but it looks like I'll have to wait 'til it comes out on the PS2.


    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=red>DOG</font color=red>
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Why is VF not popular here? The following are my thoughts on this. :eek:)

    1) The hardware was/is far too expensive with Model 2/3 to effectively compete with other franchises. Tekken and Street Fighter games were/are at least half the price and consequently see a great deal more in distribution for that reason alone. Now with the less expensive NAOMI2 being used for VF4 price will be less of a concern, obviously.

    2) Generally mediocre design with regard to the physical appearance of the characters, their movement and special moves. The VF characters haven't much personality, fail to show emotion, or really register at all when reacting to an opponents moves and just look more like detailed mannequins than human beings. Also, most of the special moves are not anything visually impressive compared to the competition with the exception of maybe Akira's SPOD and DLC, but I feel this is largely related to the absence of proper character reaction animations that show grieving et cetera.

    3) A lack of obvious depth. The perception that VF is a boring, shallow experience consisting of exchanges of pppk followed by a stomp is a common one, especially among Tekken fans. Even a button masher playing Tekken can inadvertently escape throws, reverse moves, reverse reversals, parry and poke like a mutha -- and in doing so the way the game was designed to be played at advanced skill levels is manifest. Nothing is there to suggest the same to a would be VFer. You'd need a FAQ, an in depth review, or a knowledgeable friend to guide you through VF mechanics 101 before you'd gain an understanding of the depth of VF gameplay. Some of the VF4 preview videos I've seen instruct the player to struggle when staggered so at least AM2 is doing something there..

    4) Juggle combos aren't a big feature of VF, but every other fighting game out there allows for easy juggle combos. They're fun to do damnit. :p


    I don't think that arcade success in the US with VF4 is even a remote possibility, but the game will likely be more popular than VF3 ever was. If Sega is smart they'll find a way to take advantage of the PS2 release to massively convert new players to the franchise the way Namco established its huge Tekken fan base with Tekken 2 PS1. Even if that happens VF's yomi based gameplay will never attract the amount of attention among gamers that Tekken's more straightforward reactionary style has, I'd think.

    I think the most important problem to be addressed in order to assure VF4 a modicum of success will be proving the depth of VF gameplay mechanics. A good way to do that has already been seen in VF2PC. If you select the Playback Mode you can watch selected matches among some very excellent Japanese players such as Ikebukoro Sarah, Bun Bun Maru, and Shinjuku Jacky -- the Tetsujins. These are very exciting and most importantly show the game as it was meant to be played. What would be really cool is if we could convince Sega to include say.. VF4 World Tournament matches (or some other examples of skilled play in their stead) within the PS2 release somehow. Maybe as just part of the attract mode loop thats played while idle or as a separate playback mode as with VF2PC. Some kind of instructional mode wouldn't hurt either, anything like that would be beneficial in convincing a Joe Average that investing his time and money would be rewarding somehow.

    :eek:)
     
  17. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Floats! They're called floats!

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    ) Juggle combos aren't a big feature of VF,

    <hr></blockquote>

    *Floats* /versus/images/icons/wink.gif are massive in VF. It's one of the very best features of the game. No offense, but VF3 floats are a walk in the park. There are a few toughies but in general they're all quite straight forward and not that hard. VF2 floats required practice and were/are much much more difficult.

    I personally like that about the game. Somethings are hard to do and I wish Sega would ensure that there would be aspects of the game that remain difficult to do. This is what contributes to VFs difficult and steep learning curve - and it's a good thing, imo.

    cheers,

    <font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
    <font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>
     
  18. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    The VF characters haven't much personality, fail to show emotion, or really register at all when reacting to an opponents moves and just look more like detailed mannequins than human beings.

    Tekken doesn't either. The characters even kept the same facial expressions during their taunts at the end of a round (at least in Tekken 3). In fact, the only game I've seen that has has character reactions to an opponents moves during the course of battle is Soul Calibur. But the action is so fast-paced it's hard to notice. VF characters have eye contact virtually throughout the round, and the fallen opponents have their eyes closed, among other things.
    I really don't think a show of emotion, other than that after the round is over, is a determining factor on the unpopularity of VF. Besides, which is more important, gameplay or a frown when someone gets hit?


    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=red>DOG</font color=red>
     
  19. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I guess one could argue, though, that VF2 had a lot of personality. There was a lot going on in those little details here and there, in the animations, etc.... I personally feel that VF has always had personality, more than a lot of popular examples when it comes to 3d fighters.

    Tekken has a lot of recognizable references to popular icons which many people may instantly think is really cool or just a ripoff. I don't know if I can say it adds to character, but I believe that it instantly gratifies or extends conceptions we (people/gamers/etc...) already have related to somewhere or another. It's "unique edginess" allows most to feel it's at least somewhat original to some degree.

    However, if we were to talk about character, I feel VF has always had it. Heck, most of us have pretty much created our own visions of character background around the pre-existing designs and nuances of these characters, much of which based on how they act or move in the game alone. At least from what I understand, reading these posts and what not. For some, the personality comes from simply the voices and poses of these characters which have existed since VF1 (btw, notice that much of the character we actually know in the characters in Tekken may have been from the cinematics in the console versions of the game--also that voices will be a first for the series in TK4 as far as I know--think arcade versions).

    When I look at the games now and compare, I see a lot more about the characters in-game in the VF series based on how they move, look, and act. While for Tekken, I'm mostly just thinking of the main influence behind the material inspirations of the designs of the characters. Without seeing the cinematics, I attribute the Laws to Bruce Lee, Bryan Fury to Rutgeur Hauer, Lei Wulong to Jacky Chan (in his Police roles). Besides that, I had no clue about a lot of the backgrounds of these characters, but I do admit that "they looked cool" when I first played the game. But that still doesn't say much for personality.

    -Chanchai
     
  20. DMan

    DMan Well-Known Member

    Another thing to add to that list is not having enough characters to choose from in VF. I know that it takes a long time to master a character in VF. However, it seems like people expect there to be a huge line up of characters to choose from now. Personally I still can't believe they took out Taka! I thought that since there are a limited number of characters, they would never remove characters from the game. Oh well, maybe they will put him back in the home version of VF4 :)
    -DMan-
     

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