Well okay LISTEN!!! (Or why the VF scene in the US sucks.)

This is going off tangent to the Electric Cancel Tourney thread from the below. I decided to post this in a seprate thread because I wish to address more points.

<font color="red"> First of all: To Pablo aka JediFei </font color>
You are speaking utter nonsense. When was the last time a Tekken tourney had a VF tourney with it? (When did that "Era" start?) Sure there were some multi-format tourneys around but that's why they are multi-format tourneys. I can't remember when was the last time a bobsled player refused to participate in Olympics because it was not a "bobsled tourney." Listen, EC people are having VF tourney because they recognized VF4 to be a game WORTHY OF as much support and and backing as Tekken--the most popular and well organized game in the US rivaled only by theSF franchise.

And it's significant PRECISELY BECAUSE there is no VF tourney comprable to begin with, when compared to these tourneys Tekken has.


<font color="red"> Now with that out of the way,
Let me digress a little, and talk about what was possiby one of most fun VF events I ever had in the US </font color>

Am I talking about NYG3? No. Marathon session with Hiro? No. First MOAT? Well that was in Canada and I am talking about something else:

It was when I went to <font color="orange"> Otakon Anime Convention </font color> in Baltimore. That's right men. It was not a VF event. It was not even a gaming event. But it was an event with crap load of people. And they had 5 or 6 or so VF set ups with dozens of people going around playing in arcade style (Meaning the loser gets up after one or two games and rotate with people in the queue, generating constant flow of people.)

I guesstimate that they really had a hundred people playing VF throughout the event. The tourney they had had 64 people signed up and there were bunch of people who missed the signup but became spectators.

And it was one of the most fun VF event I ever had in the US and certainly the MOST ATMOSPHERIC VF event I ever went to in North America. Not because of players who can do SPoD using their ass with eyes closed, but just sheer number of players and enthisiasm. In the tourney every fancy combos and close matches and comebacks drew howls and cheers from 60+ people watching the event.

Sure most of the players were scrubs. I am not denying that. But guess what this was one event in the US that made me feel like I could understand what it's like to play in Japan. Who cares about Chibita or Kyasao if you are just locked up with those two playing PS2 in small room all day. I frankly don't see why that would be any more fun than playing with Adam or Hiro. At least you can become friends with those guys. What makes Japan special is not the life-less game obsessed demigods playing in a few select places, but the fact that you can go to arcade and play against all these people you don't know.(Not to mention many tourneys with large number of people.)

<font color="red"> So WTF are you trying to say? So more people the merrier. who doesn't know? </font color>

Well for some reason that's not entirely true. in NYG3, to be very honest, I didn't feel strong urge to play against people who I felt was not as good as me. It's marked contrast compared to how I stayed around two digit winstreaks in Otakon and loved every minute of it. I could understand why someone like Hiro didn't feel much enthusiasm playing against players who don't give challenge. While the Phily tourney was not the best tourney I have been to, I strangely felt more involved in that than NYG3 "tourney." (Phily VF4 tourny was held alongside Tekken and MvC tourneys BTW)


<font color="red">What I am really trying to say </font color>

I don't know how to turn the US VF scene to become like Japan. But I sure do know how not to turn the US VF scene to become like Japan ever. Those include:

1. Talk endlessly about some tourney going halfway around the world involving people you have never met and never will WHILE ignoring the tourneys going right in your backyard.

2. Maintain some unfounded elitist attitude--which in fact is just mere isolationism--about playing against people who are not part of so called community.



Now, I can't say I am innocent of some of these charges, but I have been to a few of these event in East Coast myself. And Otakon event made me just realize how much is missing. And my experience compels me to scream out that many people who replied to the EC tourney thread don't know what you are talking about. And with attitude like that VF is dead. Assuming schdule is favorable, I can imagine there will be a lot of PS2 owning Tekken players who decides to also participate in the VF4 portion of the tourney. (I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the organizer are hoping.)

Ah well what am I doing being riled up about a frigging video game. I need a life.

P.S. Florida Crew you guys have expressed interest in going across the big pond this winter to participate in Tourney or such. I speak Korean and speak enough Japanese to ask directions and so on (And know where to sleep, where to get cheap food etc) Let me know what you guys are planning

 

Just to reiterate, speaking for Blondie and myself, we are VERY disappointed about not being able to attend EC4. Realizing how important it could be, having the possibility of garnering more attention for VF in US, we are saddened by not being able to show.

 

Yeah, same here. I would be in L.A. tomorrow if it wasn't for more important matters like my parents. But perhaps next time. Or when I go to the far east again.

 

Hyun, I agree with one of your points... earlier in another thread it seemed like people were discouraging others from going to a tournament because it wasn't likely to have a bunch of scrubs there and no known VF players. But there's no reason NOT to go a tournament if it's convenient.
If anyone feels a tournament severals states away isn't worth going to (due to lack of players or whatever) ... just don't go. No real reason to advise others not to go... if they're smart, they'll figure it out for themselves what's worth travelling for and what's not.

As for other reasons why VF in NA sucks.... it's in america, what else is there to say.

 

I just wanted to say that everything Hyun said about Otakon is true. I went to the VF4 tourney in Philly and to the one at Otakon, and even though the Philly one had better players competing, the Otakon tournament was much more enjoyable.

The skill level of most of the people at Otakon wasn't great - but they had a lot of interest. I was surprised to see so many people with the Akira joysticks. I had a lot of fun playing all of them before the tournament.

Many people asked me to stay around after the tournament so they could get some more practice in.
I had a lot of fun playing against them and know what it is like when they say they have no one to practice against.

And all of these people were interested and watching every match of the tournament... I didn't go to NYG3 but was surprised to hear that some were disinterested in the matches going on. If anything why wouldn't you be watching to try to pick up on the technique of someone you will face later in the tournament?

Even the people who were eliminated from the tournament, or who didn't even enter, were still interested in the outcome. Before the finals a group of people starting chanting "here we go jacky here we go" (clap clap clap) (while others would then shout jeffry for hyun during the clapping). one guy bet his friend five pushups i would win.

The Philly tournament was fun but not even comparable to Otakon. At the Philly tourney we all played a lot of practice rounds but after the tourney i think Rich Shag and I were some of the only ones to stick around and play.

I don't really know what good telling you all how much fun Otakon was except that I really hope they have another VF4 tournament next year and that even more of you guys make it out next time. The video game room was the biggest I've been to and there is a lot to do other than VF4.

 

Hyun, YOu should never take my posts seriously man. Im fucking crazy. And I post worst. I love VF and will play it whenever, You can ask any of the florida guys. Sorry if what I said pissed thee off.

 

How to make it like the JPN scene? Take 30% of the US population - make them live in one city. Put VF4 in the arcades, and make it WORTH playing in the arcades (competition, and the VF.net system).

Honestly, Japan's dense geographic 'hardships' do actully turn out to it's savior in some things.

 

How to make it like the JPN scene? Take 30% of the US population - make them live in one city. Put VF4 in the arcades, and make it WORTH playing in the arcades (competition, and the VF.net system).

OK, now we got a plan. 30% odd in london already just need a little help with the rest /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

This is what I think

Ok, here's my 2 cents. And this too is spawning from the EC4 thread. The more I read it, the more i wanted to say my part and this particular thread is the most appropriate place.

Hyun, you have made some good points in your post. I just want to express my opinion on why VF in NA sucks so bad.

The root of the problem, I think, lies in the fact that NA VFers have a desire to play the game on a console. Yeah, I've heard it before: "But our arcade sucks!". Well, let me assure you that it doesn't have to. Everyone thinks their arcade blows. Well, guess what? It wouldn't if you supported it properly. How many of you have made the effort to get to know those who make decisions at your arcade? How many of you have made the effort to gather people and organize tournaments? I will commend Nycat for his consistency at inviting people out to CTF on SAturday mornings in NY. That's great, and that's the kind of effort the VF scene needs.

The way I see it, it's a lot harder to establish a local VF community if you have everyone playing at home. That's their comfort zone, and it's tough to create a community that's never on neutral ground. The arcade is your neutral ground. Having gatherings at the arcade demonstrate to your local operator that there *is* a group of people who love playing this game. You have to approach them and tell them how much you like this game, and how much you want to organize things to make it better. Keep in mind that operators are running a business - their bottom line is making money. Tournaments make money. But you have to do it right. A tournament runs most smoothly when a machine is on free play...so, you have fees for essentially 'renting' the machine. But don't do this on a Friday night when the arcade is normally making a good flow of cash. Do it on a Sunday afternoon, or a Tuesday evening when the arcade is not so busy. Presented this way, an operator can see that he will make more money than usual. Anyway, this strategy can be applied to any game, not just VF.

By having a more consistent VF arcade scene, I believe we'd see a much better turn out at tournaments all across the continent. Keep this in mind when Evo *does* eventually come out for a console. The arcade should still your meeting ground for tournaments and gatherings! The console is your free practice in your comfort zone. Granted, having only VerB in arcades and VerC on PS2 hindered this process, but things can change for Evo. We just have to want it to change and we have to be willing to make an effort.

If people all across NA cooperated and put effort in supporting a league of sorts - not unlike the SF Evolution league going on at srk.com - then we would have a unified group of VFers all contributing the a common cause. With a solid, uniform foundation of VF groups across NA, I would wager that SOA would start to listen. It'd certainly be a lot more effective than what we have now, that's for sure.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. This is what I think.

cheers,

 

Re: This is what I think

I think it's time for me to put in my 2 cents...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The root of the problem, I think, lies in the fact that NA VFers have a desire to play the game on a console.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to your opinion on the matter, I must be an atypical NA VFer. Simply for the fact that I don't like playing VF on the console but rather in an arcade. As a matter of fact, I have no desire on playing on the console if there's a way for me to go to an arcade within a reasonable distance, which means in the same city I live in (San Diego).

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Yeah, I've heard it before: "But our arcade sucks!". Well, let me assure you that it doesn't have to. Everyone thinks their arcade blows. Well, guess what? It wouldn't if you supported it properly. How many of you have made the effort to get to know those who make decisions at your arcade?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've said arcades suck royally in San Diego. How can I support an arcade that won't even support getting the games I, as a paying customer, want to play? I tried to talking to the owner of one place and he basically said he wouldn't be getting VF4 because the game sucks and it wouldn't make money. All I asked was "Are you getting VF4?" and he basically spit in my face for asking and insulted my favorite game at the same time. I didn't even bring up the subject out of the blue... I had been talking to him for a while about games and buying some spare games he had. Now I most likely won't. I simply won't even support that kind of owner. However, if you started talking DDR, then he'd be all ears. DDR makes money, VF4 doesn't. It's that simple.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

How many of you have made the effort to gather people and organize tournaments?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, since there are zero VF4 machines in any arcade that I know of in San Diego, having a tournament at an arcade would be impossible. The one place in LA (AI) that actually has a VF4 machine, the people won't even fix the buttons even after telling them a number of times that they don't work. Maybe a tourney there would get them to fix the controls and bring some people out of the woodwork to play. WIth the exception of one person, I met the entire active socali crew at AI, so it's not like we don't want to play at arcades.

When Evo was in the area (still over an hour drive for me), we all played at that arcade. I think the game lasted for only 3 weeks and was taken out. I'm sure we pumped enough money into that game to make them see that it was worth having. However, we didn't even have a change to organize a tourney since they took it out.

I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you Llanfair, but just trying to convince arcade operators to get VF4 has been useless. I want to play in the arcades and have tournaments there, but having a machine is a prereq to everything you've said and because there are only 2 or so that I know of within a 100 mile radius (no, I haven't searched out every arcade in that area), people would just rather play at home. I swear that the only way to get the games you want to play in the arcade in NA is to start your own arcade.

However, maybe I can get some of the LA crew to organize a tourney at AI. I do believe that tourneys are the way to go with respect to attracting more people to the game.

Either way, I just want to play VF.

 

Re: This is what I think

I think vf4akira hit the nail on the head.. The reason the Tekken community is so much strong than the Virtua Fighter one is that Tekken is found in more arcades across the country than Virtua Fighter is... Us playing Virtua Fighter at home isn't a cause of the sickness - it's a symptom.

I live near a resort area in New Jersey with quite a few arcades (although none are really comparable to ones you'd find in a big city, they are the average one you would find in a mall or something). I'd say about half of them had VF1... When VF2 came out again about half of them carried it. There was one VF3 machine in my area (and the arcade got it a few years after it was released). The closest place to me that has VF4 in the arcade is an hour away.

Yet almost all of these arcades had Tekken 3 and most of them have Tekken 4. People are going to enjoy playing what they can in the arcade - and if my hometown area arcades are any indication, many more arcades have Tekken machines than Virtua Fighter machines, therefore many more players play Tekken. My guess is this happened with arcades not wanting to shell out the big bucks for VF3, but I dont know for sure...

Ive tried asking arcades to get Virtua Fighter 4 - the arcade manager I talked to told me straight out they wouldn't get it - he said games like Tekken and Marvel VS Capcom 2 are "gold", while Virtua Fighter.. well.. In order for us to have a community like the Tekken or Street Fighter players have we'd need Virtua Fighter games in more arcades which would hopefully cause more people to play it. It is kind of late now, and I don't know what it will take to draw in new people. Pretty much everyone agrees that Virtua Fighter 4 is an incredible fighting game - but that didn't seem to bring too many players over.

-Alex

 

Re: This is what I think

That's nice and all, what to do if only three people -want- to religiously commit, say, 20 bucks a week to VF (assuming 50 cents a pop)?
And if the arcade doesn't have VF yet, and you don't want to haul out to the arcade for anything else... how do you convince him to buy one, short of putting up a chunk of cash?

The arcade I was stuck with strictly goes with the safe moneymakers - driving/snowboard type games, whackamole, MK, gun games, skiball, and maybe tekken or capcom games if they can acquire them past their prime for a lower price. I couldn't tell the guy with a straight face that if he bought an evo he would recoup his investment within ... I dunno, what do they expect for an acceptible turnaround? My guesstimate is evo would take nearly a year. Somehow I don't think that's anywhere near the arcade owner's target timeframe.

I think the topic should be amended to why VF sucks in america, it sounds fine in canada. Various canadians have joked on irc how the arcade owner has been thoroughly whipped into doing pretty much what his faithful VFers want. Arcade owners here are like "stick's broke? Use 2P side."

 

Re: This is what I think

We, in Toronto, take the VF scene pretty much for granted and it becomes easy to not understand how it is elsewhere. With the exception of VF Kids we've had every incarnation (Even my University has had VF 1 through 3) available and we've rarely been short of competition when we put the word out that we're playing on a certain night.

It gets lean here too sometimes though and it would be a mistake to say Vince is whipped. Llanfair worked hard to get Vince's trust and its paid off for us. Before that we had to deal with Funland on Yonge where we were treated like refuse and had members of our group kicked out for being asian (basically). So we walked. And found Vince.

The scene is far from perfect but from a operator/consumer standpoint its very complimentary, symbiotic even.

GE

 

Re: This is what I think

pffft...the vf scene in NA has ALLLLLWWWAYYYYYS <font color="red">sucked</font color>, YEARS before the console versions of the games started to cut into the action, which really only happened on the very ass-end of vf3tb. you know this just as well as me, dude. and what GeePee said rings so true - NA just isn't a geographically and socially ideal place for VF to succeed, arcade or console.

and what you say about consoles isn't entirely accurate, by a long shot - witness the floridiots. you even like them (i'll forgive you for that), but they were weaned and built up steam playing the console version of VF4. the console version of VF4 has probably been even better for the scene (at least in terms of sheer numbers of players, not necessarily quality of players and personalities) than anything else.

 

Re: This is what I think

My two cents:

Rich: WHATEVER! (sarcasm) VF4 owned you and you wimped out to the challenge, BABY!

2nd cent: You guys could be playing at home working on Throw escapes, Execution, Movement, and some even building there precious Kumite files and getting better in some way.

The better the players, the better competition is, and the better the competition is the more people will be drawn to VF's Gameplay!

So stop thinking of a response to my post and PLAY!!!