What do you think was wrong with the Evo tutorial

Discussion in 'Console' started by Jide, Jul 30, 2006.

  1. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    Now that I've sucessfully become a somewhat decent VF player, I guess I can't see what is actually wrong with it for beginners at the game.
    So what is wrong with the tutorial?
    What doesn't it cover?
    How could the format of the tutorial improved?
    What are the good points about the tutorial?
    Is there enough advice while playing?

    I'm quite curious to know..
    Replies would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  2. thebradSHow

    thebradSHow Well-Known Member

    there aren't many things wrong with it but there were a few.
    1) They didn't put a strong emphasis on using delay attacks as anti evade, they more so emphasised half circulars, full circulars, and throws. They did talk about it, I am just saying they didna talk about it that much.
    2) By the time the game dropped on american consoles they coulda talked about some of the things that encompassed high level VF in Japan at that time (I'm aware it was pretty much straight port, we were lucky to get it at all, and Sega doesn't tend to care about their american audience nearly as much as they care about their Japanese audience, but still, this is clearly theory related so :p).
    3) It woulda been relatively simple to go through and put on different matches from the ones that were on the Japanese game (I do consider the match vids part of training, and etc etc etc read what I said above).
    4) It was darn near impossible to set up a way to practice ARE and VIP. Far be it for me to understand a better way for them to set it up for practice purposes (possibly just have character specific ARE and VIP situations programmed into the game so that you can practice it and see if you are getting it right though I'm aware it got toned down in FT and what not /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif).
    5) In the future, more advice per character (and maybe more combo stuff).

    Bear in mind, the preceding is just what I think coulda been done to improve upon, I am very aware that it is still, to date, the best training mode in fighting games.
     
  3. RaH

    RaH Member

    I think the tutorial is great in-game, the only thing I can think of that would be nice is if during the combo training they actually displayed the combo you were doing on-screen while you were attempting it. I would sometimes forget and need to restart the session /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif dunno if this is the kind of answer you're looking for, just something that came to mind
     
  4. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    I'm looking for all kinda of answers to the smallest detail.
    Both posts are exactly what i'm looking for.
     
  5. Poppa

    Poppa Well-Known Member

    I would've liked to have seen (and this may seem a little crazy and asking for a bit much) a little summary after each quest fight.

    Now here are the details of the idea I have:

    1. The option to choose when to view the data of the fights. e.g. every 1 match, every 5 matches or 10, etc...

    2. The summary has a...

    "In match 1(X fighter (you) vs Y fighter (CPU (or 2P)), the following happened...The following needs to be improved...The following was done well...Here's your attack patterns (low/mid/high attack percentages)...Here's you biggest combo/biggest damage...Your favorite attack...Here's some suggestions in general...Here's some suggestions for this particular character you fought...Here's what you should do to get better (makes suggestions of what tutorial section to go and practice)...In match 2, etc..."

    ...type of format. This format is really for the beginners to get better.

    3. You could use it in VS mode as well. And it could show it for each player (1P and 2P).

    4. Now that PS3 has an HDD standard, you could save the "report sheets" to the HDD to view them later, as well as the replays of the fights, as well as the Frame data (I know you could view the frame data during the review, but I'm saying as a separate sheet, sorta like a flow chart).

    I would also like to be able to edit the flowcharts and make my own from scratch. I would like to have the option to select a stage and view the fighters act out the flowchart. Also, be able to edit it during the fight. Basically, just have a ton of cool flow chart options. This is mostly for the advanced players.

    5. We could upload them online for others to view and even print them (if we transfer them to our computer to print).

    6. I would've liked to have seen some more options with the "record actions" options on free training.

    Other than that (I can't really think of anything else right now), I agree with everything else that's been said.
     
  6. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    Some of my thoughts:

    * Combine Quest and Tutorial mode for VF5, so for every new arcade you first have to complete a set of excercises that you then have to perform directly in matches in the following arcade.

    * A point system for playing correctly instead of Quest orders and earning gold in prize matches. If you for example perform a DTEG in a throw counterable situation the game will acknowledge that on screen and give you points for it. Points will be given for other things like performing max damage combos and such.
     
  7. Poppa

    Poppa Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Jeneric said:

    Some of my thoughts:

    * Combine Quest and Tutorial mode for VF5, so for every new arcade you first have to complete a set of excercises that you then have to perform directly in matches in the following arcade.

    * A point system for playing correctly instead of Quest orders and earning gold in prize matches. If you for example perform a DTEG in a throw counterable situation the game will acknowledge that on screen and give you points for it. Points will be given for other things like performing max damage combos and such.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I like that point system idea. They could even give you a grade like in Street Fighter 3rd Strike. And, you know, a report card like in my idea. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  8. Siyko

    Siyko Well-Known Member

    That kind of data would be really nice.

    "You attempted 45 yohos. 8 connected for an average of 35 damage. 37 were punished for an average of 28 damage. Stop being a jackass"

    I approve
     
  9. Poppa

    Poppa Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    SiYkO said:

    That kind of data would be really nice.

    "You attempted 45 yohos. 8 connected for an average of 35 damage. 37 were punished for an average of 28 damage. Stop being a jackass"

    I approve

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /versus/images/graemlins/lol.gif
     
  10. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    i think jide is looking for training mode features only
     
  11. vanity

    vanity Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    SiYkO said:

    That kind of data would be really nice.

    "You attempted 45 yohos. 8 connected for an average of 35 damage. 37 were punished for an average of 28 damage. Stop being a jackass"

    I approve

    [/ QUOTE ] Seriously shit like that would make the game even more perfect.
     
  12. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Jide asked what was "wrong" with the tutorial.

    Just for clarification, do you (Jide) want people's opinions on what they thought was wrong with the tutorial, or things that could be added to make it better? I personally don't think anything was wrong with it, but I do have ideas that could improve it, which I'll post later.

    BTW, are you just asking about the "tutorial"? Because I see people replying with things that have nothing to do with the training tutorial.
     
  13. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    I guess since people have more info to add which is down to training. I guess the direction could be about the whole training mode as a whole.
    What did like about the training mode?
    What was wrong with it?
    What could they add to improve it?
     
  14. sanjuroAKIRA

    sanjuroAKIRA Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    I thought tactics advice really shines in exposing experienced players to the basics of using a new character. I wish it was a little more rigorous...more hit checking exercises, requiring more advanced defensive techniques...more frame tight series exercises...more combos...a rundown of each(or more) of the character's special property attacks & where they work (with some character this is focused on whereas with others there is nothing). There is a big gap between having a firm handle on the tactics advice information in evo & having a firm handle on the character. With more information and exercises, much of this gap could be eliminated.

    On the Guard and respond feature, setting the cpu to 50/50 mid/throw could have made things easier.

    How about a tutorial on fancy footwork?
     
  15. Siyko

    Siyko Well-Known Member

    One thing wrong with the training mode I felt was some of the tactics advice could be decieving. For instance, one of shun's series is /versus/images/commands/b.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif (hold), (DS)/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif /versus/images/commands/p.gif... which is defiently not something you can use as anything but a trick every now and then. Some series using more 'bread and butter' moves would be more important for a player trying to learn the game I think.
     
  16. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    PSN:
    unicorn_cz
    XBL:
    unicorn cz
    Few things was not-so-good:
    1st - when you reset your position in the ring, re-play of captured moves was canceled. Annoing as hel, if you FE was learning something close to wall, like techroll Jacky's df,df+P+G,f+K...
    2nd - captured string was automatically interupted and canceled during replay, if you hit your opponent. CPU just stop them (and you cannto use things like techrolls in captrured things)
    3rd - you cannot set "block 1st X hit(s) and then" ... apply anything you have in your settings (hit, counterhit, crouch, evade, jump...
    4th - you cannot set different escapes in ETEG training, just that prepeared-ones, so no diagonals.
    5th - there was no movement training (especially VIP...)
    6th - you cannot choose infinity stage in practice, so you need to reset your position all the time
    7th - you can choose reactions on block (P, d+P, throw, elbow, heavy elbow), but you cannot choose CPU to do captured move(s)
    8th - you cannot choose reactons on hit, just on block
    9th - you cannot analyze frame data (you have there that bars which show exe,hit,and recovery phases of you and your opponent, but they was too fast on screen to real analyze. This is not what I wish to have in practice, but in replayes /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    10th - you cannto schoose CPU to mix between techroll and stay on the ground

    This is what (I think) all I will preferare to have in practice /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  17. Darrius_Cole

    Darrius_Cole Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darrius-Cole
    XBL:
    Darrius Cole HD
    [ QUOTE ]
    Unicorn said:

    Few things was not-so-good:
    1st - when you reset your position in the ring, re-play of captured moves was canceled. Annoing as hel, if you FE was learning something close to wall, like techroll Jacky's df,df+P+G,f+K...
    2nd - captured string was automatically interupted and canceled during replay, if you hit your opponent. CPU just stop them (and you cannto use things like techrolls in captrured things)
    3rd - you cannot set "block 1st X hit(s) and then" ... apply anything you have in your settings (hit, counterhit, crouch, evade, jump...
    4th - you cannot set different escapes in ETEG training, just that prepeared-ones, so no diagonals.
    5th - there was no movement training (especially VIP...)
    6th - you cannot choose infinity stage in practice, so you need to reset your position all the time
    7th - you can choose reactions on block (P, d+P, throw, elbow, heavy elbow), but you cannot choose CPU to do captured move(s)
    8th - you cannot choose reactons on hit, just on block
    9th - you cannot analyze frame data (you have there that bars which show exe,hit,and recovery phases of you and your opponent, but they was too fast on screen to real analyze. This is not what I wish to have in practice, but in replayes /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    10th - you cannto schoose CPU to mix between techroll and stay on the ground

    This is what (I think) all I will preferare to have in practice /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /versus/images/commands/u.gif What he said.
     
  18. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    most of that could be set using the record feature.
     
  19. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    PSN:
    unicorn_cz
    XBL:
    unicorn cz
    Most of that can't be used. Some can (about 2 points of that 10) - but what a boring way... Don't forgot you cannot reset position in the ring without stop replaying.
    I don't try to say "you can't do this", I am trying to say "why don't make it more comfortable"?
     
  20. Too_Sober

    Too_Sober Well-Known Member

    The one thing that i think of immediately with VF4:Evo training mode that i would like to see added was the omission of being able to set a character/sparring CPU to do a specific move from their own combo list. I mean, a quick access feature to highlight selections from their listing. Eg, to Select the CPU to only perform a certain move at you, while you practise evade in that circumstance or whatever else you like. The function should be quick to customise and even allow you to select varied moves (and the order of said moves, including their timing), not just "random fighting" from the CPU.

    Tekken 4 and DOA4 allow a kind of CPU move slection, but it is less detailed, and moves chosen are random, but atleast less random than VF4 which will throw any attack at you, just like a match battle. But to the defence of VF4:Evo, both previously mentioned games were released about 3 or 4 years after VF4:Evo. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif However, i expect VF5 training to improve on this.

    Second thing, allow us to play outside the tutorial "white chamber room" and allow us to practise in any of the VF locations. An option for "stage select: "classic" (the VF4 room) or "user pick" (for your own stage choice) would be nice to break away from the monotony of training in the indoors white chamber.

    Oh, and very minor: Get rid of Dural's heavy breathing in the command tutorial too, as that can be annoying and overpowering in the soundtrack mix.
     

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