Discussion in 'Jacky' started by BlondieVF5, Jan 26, 2013.
Hit checking is being able to establish the outcome of an attack and react accordingly.
A very good example of hit checking whilst on the attack with Jacky would be 6PK.
If yoi do the elbow and it lands as a counter hit you can push K to guarantee the kick followup. If you just press the K every time you risk the string getting blocked and you getting punished. By learning to hit check you remove this risk.
You should be actively hit checking almost everything. Not only your own attacks but your opponent's as well. If they do PK and it hits you should probably fuzzy or defend appropriately. If they use something like Jacky's beat knuckle (P+K) and don't hit check for the followups you can block the first attack and duck under the followup and then punish them for it.
Everyone hit checks to some degree even if they aren't aware of it. But the big step is learning what you should hit check and then training your eye to see it and your hands to react.
So i should probably learn to Hit check lp starting out, and move on to bigger moves from there. The elbow was a perfect example. I do love how you exampled P=K and how you can just duck the second hit and punish. But, what about if you slide shuffle after ducking p+k, k? Can you punish still?!?!?!
Jacky 6P is not an elbow. Also 6PK can be hitconfirmed on normal hit too, but of course it's way more difficult than on CH and not really worth the risk unless you can do it consistently.
It's his 'elbow class' move. Not really sure what, beyond being a safe 14 frame mid, defines an 'elbow class' move, but this is his.
As for hit-checking, I'm terrible at it - I have the reactions of an old man and it tends to show, as I have to try to guess or 'anticipate' before I do the attack whether or not I should use a follow-up or not. It's also harder to hit-check online because of lag and delay, especially if you're playing against someone who's just mashing commands into their stick so everything of theirs comes out fastest timing (even though it'll be spammy and mashy).
Elbow > Sword is a good starting point, as it's quite lenient on the timing, and you'll quickly see the rewards if you're getting a guaranteed knockdown every time you counter-hit with your elbow, and you're avoiding doing the -eleventythousand-on-guard follow-up (that's also high) if you're guarded.
After that, I'd say Beat Knuckle is your next best one to watch, since it makes it a safe launcher if you can confirm your hit before finishing the attack, and your opponent won't be able just to go into auto-crouch mode the moment they see it (both follow-ups are high).
I know you don't like Slide Shuffle, but the P+K,P string can be checked, making it another safe combo starter. It's so lenient that even I can manage to get it from time to time.
An elbow class move would be an elbow, like Jeff 6P. Jacky 6P is a mid punch class move, hence it's not an elbow, but a mid punch.
No it's only VF speak.When people talk of "Elbow class" they don't mean elbow type, just a move that's in the style of a generic elbow. 14 frames, Mid, used to command advantage situations, usually safe on block.
There is also "Knee class". These moves aren't all knees but tend to be big 17f launchers, usually granting combos. I think this comes from VF1/VF2 days (not entirely sure). If someone says "elbow" punishable, they don't mean you have to punish it with an elbow, but a move of similar speed. Same with knee punishable and Jab punishable.
Go easy on Yomi. He's still a newbie. He'll get to grips with things in time
This makes absolutely no sense and just creates confusion IMO, but have it your way I guess.
Yeah but to make an analogy to other games. In SF people refer to a lot of moves as a "shoryu" or "shoryuken" or even just "uppercut" even though they really aren't, but they work the same as a shoryuken or uppercut within the framework of the games theory. So it's just easier to stipulate categories after how they work in the game rather on what the character does.
With elbows, my guess is that most attacks that work a certain way are/where elbows. Then it was just easier to say something like "this is his elbow" about a move because it was used the same way. So the word "elbow" is used predicatively and not actually referentially.
Don't act like it's something i just made up. It's a convention that has been around before either of us were here. If you paid more attention in the 6 or so months since your sign up date you may have noticed, but alas...
You're of course welcome to your opinion, but you should really try to understand what people are saying before you enter threads trying to correct people.
FYI the a moves type has little to do with what a move is, looks like or actually does, and more to do with how Aoi counters it. Punches can be classified as kicks and crazy stuff like that. Does that make more sense that the historical grouping of 14f mid punches and elbows? Or 17f mid knees and kicks?
If you duck second hit of Jacky hit p+kk and he goes to slide shuffle you'll get guaranteed damage, though the game seems to think it isn't a punish :s
I wasn't really implying you made it up as I've bumped into that term in the past 4 or so years I've sparsly lurked this site before signing up, but I still don't see much logic in it. Why not just say 6P when it's a 6P and elbow when it's an elbow? Or when something is "elbow punishable" just say it's -14, or -17 for "knee punishable"? Why have all these dumb and confusing analogies instead of calling the move what it is? Even the term "14f mid" would be more preferable. I'd also love to know what move looks like a punch but is classified as a kick, that would be just a glaring error on Sega's part if anything, and even then it could be solved by just calling the move what it is by it's real class. Maybe this is just nitpicking, but it just baffles me.
Wolf's 9P+K used to be classed as a mid double kick. Dunno if it still is.
this is why we don't go easy on yomi
It's an elbow or mid punch now as Goh can 4P+K+G it. The only sort of special class attack I know is Taka K+G, which takes the appearance of a stomach but is a mid double kick. I'm sure there are more, but it's sort of irrelevant.
By the way you cannot hit check 6PK with Jacky on normal hit.
Edit: although you can still check it on a crouching opponent only you don't get the big stagger icon to help you now
I think I can answer that question. Back before exact frame data was known, you can see a lot of Japanese guides giving qualitative description of frame advantage or disadvantage a character has. So for non-guaranteed punishable situation, you have listed under frame differences on guard, hit, counter hit as small, mid, large advantage/disadvantage.
For punishable situations, they list it as "punch," "elbow," "knee" speedwise punishable. While there are other moves that are not necessary elbow or knee of the same speed...everyone knows there are no elbows faster than the standing punch, nor is their a knee that is faster than an elbow (at least back in the day!).
It makes sense to speak like that though. If you say the word "Minus Seventeen" it's a lot longer than saying knee. The japanese are VERY efficient at communicating when it comes to VF. If you know frames it makes sense, if you don't know frames it makes sense as well. It's beautiful =D
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